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I highly highly suggets you watch this speech... Options
 
Aoutiv
#1 Posted : 2/24/2010 10:59:35 PM

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Ayahuasca, Tourism, and Tradition

Being someone who would like to travel to South America at some point in my life to investigate other cultures and traditions, this 45 minute speech by Jeronimo M.M. has really made me take a step back and rethink my desires and how to go about them.

Jeronimo set out to make a documentary on entheogens around the world, however the direction his documentary orginally took slowly evolved into something much different. He basically talks about what western tourism does and is doing to these indigenous cultures and how it affects their traditions (which have been in place for hundreds and hundreds of years).

This is seriously one of the best speeches that I have ever heard on this subject and would highly recommend you take 45 minutes out of your day to sit down and watch it. Thanks and enjoy the video.

“I have realized that the past and future are real illusions, that they exist in the present, which is what there is and all there is.”
-Watts-

"We live together, we act on, and react to, one another; but always and in all circumstances we are by ourselves. The martyrs go hand in hand into the arena; they are crucified alone. Embraced, the lovers desperately try to fuse their insulated ecstasies into a single self-transcendence; in vain. By its very nature every embodied spirit is doomed to suffer and enjoy in solitude. Sensations, feelings, insights, fancies — all these are private and, except through symbols and at second hand, incommunicable. We can pool information about experiences, but never the experiences themselves. From family to nation, every human group is a society of island universes."
-Huxley-
 

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jamie
#2 Posted : 2/24/2010 11:28:19 PM

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there was another thread about this vid a while back..he makes good points..

Im kinda torn over weahter or not i would ever pay to sit in an aya ceremony..i want to visit peru and drink aya there and stuff really badly..but part of it just seems sort of plastic and tacky..I hate the way the new age people try to take things from one culture and apply it to a completely diff context without even really attempting to understand it..

Wicca reminds me of this..just a whole bunch of traditions all thrown into one thing disreguarding the cultural significances..

There is alot of talk these days about how culture is so shitty and this and that..just alot of bullshit I think...people think that we should all see things exactly the same way and that culture has no context anymore..but I think that is seeing it all soooooo backwards..

Take christianity..it's so far out of context to an indigenous tribal person..it's an IMPORTED relgion..which makes no sense to an animistic culure..animism is about the land..the surroundings and the ties the inhabitants of that land have to it..the ceremonies preformed on the wholy mountain to show respect for the sun god that rises each day over its peak..the sacred river that is the life of the people..the fish that feeds them from that river..the animals withing the forest that feed them and give them life..to indigenous and animistic cultures, these things are at the heart of religous worship..

So along come these missionaries and expects them to just forget all that..and instead buy into some monotheistic bullshit..forget all the ties to the here and now..forget the tangible..buy into this intangible irrelevant crap we are selling instead... It just makes no sense if you see it from the perspective of animistic peoples..

And its the same thing with all the new age crap spewing out all this "all religion is one" bullshit..its a joke..I mean..sure all people are the same at the core..i believe that..but some people just take that line way too far and end up stepping on others cultures and muddying up some of themost beautiful ways of life still left on this planet..there are still people tied to the land in a very intimate way..and everything about their culture and the way they see the world is interconnected with that..and without that they're way of life yould be completely forgotten..just like the indigenous european way of life was lost when a more monotheistic religion called chrisianity moved in and forced these people to loose the ties to the land or be burned alive..

Please people try to realize that its OUR DIFFERENCES that make us unique, and what makes us beautiful..what make unity EVEN WORTHWHILE..if we cant keep what makes us unique while we come together as humans than its not even worth it..we will have failed..

I would rather have a culture based on multi culturalism..one that is smart enought to realize the benifits of cultural appreciation and PRESERVATION, than one that seekes to stamp out all differences in some bakcwards new age misinformed march towards a unity that is not found within diversity..

Dont step all over others culture..people are are not tourist attractions..they are not there for your entertainment..they are not sideshows.

I fear that we are on the verge of loosing sooooo much right now due to our minguided attempts towards conversion and unification..we are loosing so much..its really sad..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL7vK0pOvKI
I really hope people take the time to watch this..
Long live the unwoke.
 
1664
#3 Posted : 2/25/2010 12:07:38 AM

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It seems like a sad inevitability that unique cultures are swallowed by the more dominant force at the time. This is not a new process, cultures are continually being created and destroyed worldwide, on a variety of scales.

For example - I live in the UK and even in my lifetime, I have seen the smaller market town cultures be swallowed by big business. Many town centres here are pretty much indistinguishable from one another. The same shops, the same products, the same atmosphere. Small villages which once were close knit communities have been taken apart by second homes or people commuting elsewhere, and removing the social heart of the place. The culture here seems to have upscaled again.

There are a few exceptions, and some evidence of resistance to this, but it seems to be the trend for the forseeable future.

I reserve judgement about whether it is necessarily "good" or "bad". It is just change, and that's life. I am sure this will happen again as the country & world develops and changes over time. Weather it is a family, village, city or empire, they all grow and then fall sooner or later.
Oh great - the world has just been replaced by elf machinery.
Sic transit gloria mundi

 
MagikVenom
#4 Posted : 2/25/2010 12:45:57 AM

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Looks like this guy has been there a refreshing change in these types of vids. Human culture has become greedy to embrace the old thoughts and treat them as new and at the same time neglecting the future and learning new things. I am ripped apart by these conflicts that is one of my main dysfunctions.

"there were no bad guys it was just this mixture" I agree with this quote from vid. "Tunnel vision about plants obscured my vision"

How about this vid Extreme Celebrity Ayahuasca
This is a JOKE I would love to drink Aya with this group believe me they would learn a lesson I will admit I would be laughing at them as they roll around in vomit the group leaded included these peeps are weak. That is exactly the lesson they deserve and need.

Its getting pretty cheesy and further from the truth.

Nice Post

Thanks for that.

Peace from you local Gringo

 
Virola78
#5 Posted : 3/2/2010 12:56:46 PM

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Nice refreshing talk...

Shaman/curandero are only human.
Of course they are Smile
“The most important thing in illness is never to lose heart.” -Nikolai Lenin

I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
 
Elpo
#6 Posted : 3/5/2010 9:05:13 PM

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Good post.

I enjoyed the documentary Other Worlds by Jan Koenen even more. You can find that one in the list beside this video.
I think it has been made with the right humility and research. Very well balanced aswell.


Peace
"It permits you to see, more clearly than our perishing mortal eye can see, vistas beyond the horizons of this life, to travel backwards and forwards in time, to enter other planes of existence, even (as the Indians say) to know God." R. Gordon Wasson
 
burnt
#7 Posted : 3/5/2010 11:21:36 PM

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Interesting video and perspective. Personally I have no desire to go crashing around in some peoples village to get high on their medicine. I can make it myself in a setting I would be far more comfortable in with people I know. I did however once pay a group of people to invite a shaman to guide a ritual. I was just curious. I didn't expect any amazingly powerful revelations I just wanted to see how it all went down.

My conclusion from that experience and also from this guys talk is that ritual is different in all cultures but it has the same purpose in all cultures.

For example SWIM is far more comfortable taking shrooms at a concert or festival and going crazy dancing around with friends then going away to a village with people who don't really have much of anything in common with SWIM and taking powerful drugs with them. I can get the same kind of sense of community from a music festival or even a goddamn keg party (seriously!) as an indigenous person can get from some ritual they do with each other.

I guess I don't have any qualms with my own culture. I don't have this sense that western culture is inherently evil and hell bent on destroying the world. Sure there are problems but I think our scientifically advanced, well fed, well housed, well stocked with drugs culture is awesome. Even if I don't like half the people in it!

I feel that many people who are looking for this lets "get back in harmony with nature" really don't know what they are talking about. There is no such thing as living in harmony with nature. Sure you can sit around on a lazy afternoon while camping and watch some birds hopping around chirping eating bugs and seemingly having a great time. What you don't see is how that bird gets killed and tortured to death by a cat or how the bird carefully kills and eats every single insect in a patch of grass. Everything in nature is basically killing or eating everything else in nature. Living in "harmony" with nature means you and everyone you know is going to die a lot faster then when you try to control or better adapt yourself (artificially) to deal with nature. Living in harmony with nature would suck honestly. I love camping I love the outdoors I love growing plants I love all that shit. But having a house and medicine and food rocks and anyone who doesn't see the connection with civilization and all those comforts we take for granted is a fool.
 
VisualDistortion
#8 Posted : 3/5/2010 11:31:47 PM

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burnt wrote:
Interesting video and perspective. Personally I have no desire to go crashing around in some peoples village to get high on their medicine. I can make it myself in a setting I would be far more comfortable in with people I know. I did however once pay a group of people to invite a shaman to guide a ritual. I was just curious. I didn't expect any amazingly powerful revelations I just wanted to see how it all went down.

My conclusion from that experience and also from this guys talk is that ritual is different in all cultures but it has the same purpose in all cultures.

For example SWIM is far more comfortable taking shrooms at a concert or festival and going crazy dancing around with friends then going away to a village with people who don't really have much of anything in common with SWIM and taking powerful drugs with them. I can get the same kind of sense of community from a music festival or even a goddamn keg party (seriously!) as an indigenous person can get from some ritual they do with each other.

I guess I don't have any qualms with my own culture. I don't have this sense that western culture is inherently evil and hell bent on destroying the world. Sure there are problems but I think our scientifically advanced, well fed, well housed, well stocked with drugs culture is awesome. Even if I don't like half the people in it!

I feel that many people who are looking for this lets "get back in harmony with nature" really don't know what they are talking about. There is no such thing as living in harmony with nature. Sure you can sit around on a lazy afternoon while camping and watch some birds hopping around chirping eating bugs and seemingly having a great time. What you don't see is how that bird gets killed and tortured to death by a cat or how the bird carefully kills and eats every single insect in a patch of grass. Everything in nature is basically killing or eating everything else in nature. Living in "harmony" with nature means you and everyone you know is going to die a lot faster then when you try to control or better adapt yourself (artificially) to deal with nature. Living in harmony with nature would suck honestly. I love camping I love the outdoors I love growing plants I love all that shit. But having a house and medicine and food rocks and anyone who doesn't see the connection with civilization and all those comforts we take for granted is a fool.


Shhhhh. That kind of talk is taboo around here. Wink
You lock the door, and throw away the key

There's someone in my head but it's not me
 
1664
#9 Posted : 3/6/2010 12:25:17 AM

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burnt wrote:
Personally I have no desire to go crashing around in some peoples village to get high on their medicine. I can make it myself in a setting I would be far more comfortable in with people I know.

My conclusion from that experience and also from this guys talk is that ritual is different in all cultures but it has the same purpose in all cultures. I can get the same kind of sense of community from a music festival or even a goddamn keg party (seriously!) as an indigenous person can get from some ritual they do with each other.

I feel that many people who are looking for this lets "get back in harmony with nature" really don't know what they are talking about. There is no such thing as living in harmony with nature.

But having a house and medicine and food rocks and anyone who doesn't see the connection with civilization and all those comforts we take for granted is a fool.


I think most people would agree with you on your first point - it is generally more comfortable and fun to do psychadelics with friends in a familiar setting. I have gone and visited indigenous people in a few places, (not to take any drugs) and I always felt awkward. That doesn't mean there isn't a fantastic amount to learn from such expriences, and the more you expose yourself, the more you create things in common with each other. I think if you were able to make a bond with people from a different culture, then taking psychadelics with them would be a rich and rewarding experience.

Living in harmony with nature doesn't mean you think animals love each other all the time like in Bambi. Of course there are food chains - that is part of life, I've never met anyone that believes otherwise. I think it is more about sustainability. I love a lot of things about western culture, who doesn't? But if we dont get more "back to nature", or develop some truely revolutionary technology, that culture wont be around for very long, the planet just can't sustain it.
Oh great - the world has just been replaced by elf machinery.
Sic transit gloria mundi

 
ohayoco
#10 Posted : 3/6/2010 3:54:49 AM
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burnt wrote:
I feel that many people who are looking for this lets "get back in harmony with nature" really don't know what they are talking about.
...

I think you routinely underestimate people. By harmony they mean living sustainably. I.e. don't shit in your own watering hole, which in modern terms is don't pollute and destroy the earth because we need it to survive. It's not rocket science. Not many people are so deluded as to overlook the cruelty of nature while dazzled by its beauty.

And getting back in touch with nature is part of the de-alienation process. Both in the Marxist and hippy sense. If you know where things come from, you respect and appreciate them more... people who know about the ecosystem and how it works and connect with it through experience generally don't buy non-FSC wood nor buy and discard plastic rubbish all over the place like many of those fake-hippy revellers.

Like how people here who extract their own DMT know far more about it and appreciate it far more than people who just buy it from some drug dealer for a laugh. And out of that came the Greenteks, which are more sustainable and therefore more 'in harmony' with nature, so there is a fruit of dealienation right there because drug dealers would never have bothered to do that without financial incentive.
-

I agree I don't like the sound of compromising myself by being in a psychedelic experience in the presence of strangers... I can imagine insecurity, paranoia or even real physical danger in such a setting. So I wouldn't be up for neither the village nor the rave.
Everything I write is fictional roleplay. Obviously! End tribal genocide: www.survival-international.org Quick petitions for meaningful change: www.avaaz.org/en/
End prohibition: www.leap.cc www.tdpf.org.uk And "Feeling Good" by David D.Burns MD is a very useful book.
 
MooshyPeaches
#11 Posted : 3/6/2010 7:27:33 AM

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I have to admit I paid to goto Peru deep in the jungle at this very old temple to partake with ayahuasca and some other rituals for a couple of months. Also it was one of the most deep and changing times of my life.

I must agree with burnt that the direction we are currently taking as a society (Western) is not in the complete wrong. But also that we must try to live with nature instead of dominating/ bending everything to benefit ourselves or else we may just find our...humanity.. slipping away from beneath our feet
 
burnt
#12 Posted : 3/6/2010 10:49:46 AM

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I should be more clear. I don't mean to generalize people that anyone who sais we need to go back to nature is an idiot. I don't mean that. I am all for sustainable technologies and things like this. I guess I was critisizing people who have this naive romantic view of living in the jungle or something. Most people here are not that naive so don't take it the wrong way.
 
MooshyPeaches
#13 Posted : 3/6/2010 3:37:26 PM

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Place the average person in the heart of nature, lets say a jungle, and see how fast they become one with it.

DAMN HIPPIES <3
 
Godspark
#14 Posted : 3/7/2010 10:34:19 PM

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What it comes down to is that the most dominant race at the time spreads throughout the world through colonialism, globalization, industrialization, imperialism, and cultural revolution is a consequence of that race, be it the government, political agenda, the clergy, the royalty and/or the aristocracy. This is the truth; power hungry tyrants/psychopaths beat into you their message, the right way to live life, and the wrong way, the proper way to speak, the proper god to worship. So now that I am here, fortunate enough to be born in this country, I am lucky. I am right. Right?

It is common ignorance to believe that we have it better off. The belief that change occurs from a desire to progress is well entrenched in our western society. Contrary to the stereotype that Lewis Henry Morgan (the father of the western anthropology) perpetuated, the life of a foraging society, was a sort of lost paradise. Apparently they had plenty of food and did not have to work hard to get it.

Studies in the 1960s with the Hadza and Ju/hoansi tribes has shown a prosperous and happy people. James Woodburn described their territory as rich in food and resources. They only worked two hours a day to gather food. For the Hadza to have gone hungry back that, was inconceivable. Plant life was so abundant, there was no need to preserve it, and zebra and gazelle provided an unlimited supply of protein. How unfortunate that the only threat NOW to the Hadza people is encroachment. The most perfect example to my argument: The Datooga. The Datooga are the fastest-growing group in Tanzania. This is due to pastoralism and agriculture.

"The Datooga are clearing the Hadza lands on either side of the now fully settled valley for pasture for their goats and cattle. They hunt out the game, and the clearing destroys the berries, tubers, and honey that the Hadza rely on, and watering holes for their cattle causes the shallow watering holes the Hadza rely on to dry up."


Oh but then there's the local government, and the UAE. Those psychopaths.

"In 2007, the local government controlling the Hadza lands adjacent to the Yaeda Valley leased all of this, 6,500 km², to the Abu Dhabi royal family of the United Arab Emirates, for use as a "personal safari playground", and both the Hadza and Datooga were evicted, with some Hadza resisters imprisoned. However, after negative coverage in the international press, the deal was rescinded."


The Ju/hoansi peoples of the Kalahari Desert are another foraging society that has been widely studied to show that they had never exhausted their food supply. The major food source was the mongongo nut. With 1300 calories and 50 grams in what would consist of a cereal bowl for us, they had five times more nourishment then what we would get per cereal bowl.
So why the transition from foraging to agriculture? Swidden and irrigation wasn’t any easier than foraging. In fact it was much harder. It was a necessary consequence of population growth. Not necessarily a consequence from a magical mechanical machine that made life better.

Anthropologist Mark Cohen explains to us how agriculture didn’t make life easier or better, it made life worse: Land cultivation can only remain productive for as long as population and amount of land remains constant. After a plot is farmed for two or three years, it must lie fallow for over three decades for the brush and trees to grow back. More land, and more sophisticated techniques are required, and as a result, more labour.

John H. Bodley explains that the modern industrial societies where 95 percent of the population is concentrated in or around urban centres, the energy expended in distributing the food now exceeds the energy expended in producing it. Taking farm machinery, trucks, and fertilizer; irrigation projects;food processing;packaging;transportation;manufacturing of trucks;industrial and domestic food preparation and refrigeration-the U.S. food industry expends 8 to 12 calories of energy to produce a single calorie of food! Sure, in the grand scheme of things, in the United States and Canada, we are using less calories to put out a shit ton of calories per human consumption. But at the same time we decrease human labour, we vastly increase the amount of nonhuman energy required to make food in the form of fossil fuels like coal and oil.

Robert L. Carneiro explains that the increase of people relative to land creates conflict and war between people for resources. Then there’s the problem of more sophisticated society giving way to intensified work efforts, specializations, and a social step ladder to a stratified society, denying those lower on the ladder resources. As population grew, the need to maintain order, and organize labour amoung growing people also grew. And as cultural complexity grew, our exposure to infectious agents also grew.

Take for example: http://www.cdc.gov/EID/content/14/6/1001.htm

"the current epidemiologic scenario concerning Chagas disease in indigenous populations involves ecologic aspects of their settlements, along with nomad habits, which prevent triatomine nesting and, therefore, the infection. "

Their change in life style from nomadic foragers, a great way to avoid one area with too many triatomine, (the insect that spreads the parasite), to produce settlers has had a direct correlation as to why they currently have a surge in Chagas. (Settling in one place with too many triatomine.)

Large settlements attract and sustain a large amount of vermin, like insects and rats. Large settlements also result in the buildup of human wastes. Schistosomiasis is a disease caused by worms and snails that thrive on irrigation agriculture. The domestication of dogs and cats, cattle, pigs, other characteristics in our advanced society, increases the contact with people and disease causing microorganisms. Food processing and storage is a guaranteed way to spread.

Of course, one can point out that the greatest accomplishment of our industrialized society is the treatment and curing of these diseases. However, citizen access to these cures is determined by the degree in economic inequality in their country, and not by how rich their country is. With the largest income gap, the United States ranks 49th in life expectancy even though it ranks six (boy did it go down) in overall wealth.

The destruction of small egalitarian societies has, in recent years, accelerated largely because of what is termed "globalization", the expansion into virtually all areas of the world of a culture that assumes that economic trade is the source of all well-being. Equally involved in the dilemma are the so-called civilized societies that are responsible for driving small-scale societies to the edge of extinction or forcing them to enter civilization through its dark side of poverty, disease, and forced labour.

Mexico, along with most Central American countries, has lost vast amounts of its rainforests. At the beginning of the century, Mexico had 13 million hectares of rain forest. Today only 2.4 million hectares remain. Of the total destroyed, 5.5 million hectares were converted to pasture, and over half of that is in an advanced stage of degradation and erosion. Furthermore, while 60 percent of Mexico's productive land is devoted to pasture or forage for animals, more than 50 percent of its population never consumes animal products.

In the 1970s, Paraguay, as most developing countries, enjoyed an economic boom fueled by loans from the world bank. Increased agriculture production in crops, soy, wheat and cattle fuelled the boom. The economic miracle was accomplished by bringing new areas of land under cultivation;this involved cutting down the forests, selling timber, and converting the rain forest into farm land or pasture. From 1970 to 1976 Paraguayn rain forests were reduced from 6.8 to 4.2 million hectares. Half the rain forest was cut by 1984, and an additional 5 percent a year is being cut. At this rate the entire Paraguayan rain forest will be gone by 2020.

Do we assume that we can explain the division of wealth in the world by saying that some nations have progressed and others have not? Or is the concept of progress-the idea that human history is the story of a steady advance from a life dependant on the whims of nature to a life of control and domination over natural forces- a fabrication of contemporary societies based on ethnocentric notions of technological superiority?

*Most of these points come directly from "Cultural Anthropolgy a problem-based approach" Richard H.Robbins and Sherrie N. Larkin.
 
balaganist
#15 Posted : 3/7/2010 11:00:51 PM

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I saw this talk just before I was due to go to Ecuador last September for a 10-day ayahuasca retreat. It made me think a lot about why I was going, what I was looking for, and the possible repercussions of such things on the local people.

The rereat was run very well, the shaman who gave the ceremonies was a gentle, humble and deep character. I and most of the others had some powerful and life-changing experiences. Out there I really felt the power of ayahuasca, it felt quite different to when I have done it by myself or with others here in London. I had a total breakthrough out there, complete ego-loss, being completely in the present moment, feeling totally healed for a night, like being in heaven on earth.

I wanted to experience the medicine in its home, with people connected to the ancient lineage of its use. Yes at times I did feel like a westener who can afford to fly out and "buy" the experience. But I also heard that the shaman was fascinated by people like us, because most people out there are not interested in Aya or shamanism - they will come to a shaman for healing but rarely will drink with the shaman. Apparently he viewed us as some kind of shamans, I guess because of the will for self-exploration and willingness to learn.

As always there must be a balance. Although I find the idea of Aya tourism quite bad, I think we are very lucky to be able to fly to a remote part of the world and be able to learn/experience ancient practices, that IMO are very important to the survival of the human race.
balaganist is a fictional character who loves playing the game of infinite existence. he amuses himself by posting stories about his made up life in our plane of physical reality. his origins are in other dimensions... he merely comes here to play.
 
Xt
#16 Posted : 3/8/2010 12:26:45 AM

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Nic post Balaganist. Well said. I too have doubts about the whole flying over thing. I desperatly want to explore south america. I have done for years. The whole continent ideally.
Watching this video brought up some very important issues.
It certainly made me re evaluate my position. How i felt about my practices and beliefs in regard to anothers culture.

I came to sort of conclusion. That my religion is undefined. That it will probably always be undefined. Im not a Shaman, not do i follow Shamanism.
But my spiritual experiences are powerful and personal. That i have deep and meaningful experiences with practices both modern and traditional methods.
I gain alot of beneficial information through using traditional methods. Thousands of years of evolution and experimentation have gone into things like Ayahuasca. Who am i to argue with that. Safety, good intentions, respect, ritual, many of these things are cultivated when approaching ayahuasca in a traditional format.
Many of these things i carry over into modern practices. And that is definatly beneficial in a few ways. But the personal beliefs that go with the traditions... they are subjective. I have my own beliefs. Those are what i work with. I dont adopt anything from the traditional ways in regards to that.

I think part of the issue is accessibility. For example, Christianity does not fit in line with my beliefs. Infact im not even sure what my beliefs are. Therefore i dont find the christian spiritual experience accessible.
Entheogens are an accessible spiritual experience for many. Using methods modern or traditional, one can feel the deep cosmic forces at work and receive a powerful personal enveloping front row seat of a spiritual/religious/whatever, experience instantly. To put it bluntly, it works, you get results. Its a dam sight more effective at getting results then anything else, and it just so happens to have been perfected over thousands of years.

This is why im into the idea of Ayahuasca. If it can be taken in it most traditional way, in the most fitting place, as per the ancient knowledge. Then all the better. Of coarse this is not always practical, and maybe morally complicated. What with the above video's points and the whole fuel, plane, money thing.
In which cases modern practices can be employed in a comtempory manner or traditional practices in a contempory manner.
What ever the time and convenience calls for.
Modern practices like freebase Dmt vaping... well apparently they work well too. Utilizing science to yield a potent more direct method. Who can argue with that either? If it works...

I think i deviated off topic a little. I guess im trying to relate this more directly to the entheogenic aspect of cultures meeting the way they are with aya.
As for being a 'gringo' and stomping all about the jungle. I think the same rules apply there as anywhere...
Be respectful, Polite, considerate, etc etc. Thats obvious. But having it presented in this manner on this video was spot on. Very good material.

I hope what ive written gets my point across. Ive got a feeling lots of it gets lost in translation, how ironic.

“Right here and now, one quanta away, there is raging a universe of active intelligence that is transhuman, hyperdimensional, and extremely alien... What is driving religious feeling today is a wish for contact with this other universe.”
― Terence McKenna
 
burnt
#17 Posted : 3/8/2010 8:51:04 AM

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As always there must be a balance. Although I find the idea of Aya tourism quite bad, I think we are very lucky to be able to fly to a remote part of the world and be able to learn/experience ancient practices, that IMO are very important to the survival of the human race.


I think its interesting that the shaman was interested in meeting westerners who want to self explore etc. The shaman SWIM drank with SWIM thinks had a similar view on it. Although he came to us we didn't go to him. It was a journey for him as well simply to leave his homeland like that.

I guess I have mixed feelings about aya tourism in general. I think its naive to assume that going into the jungle and drinking jungle brews will solve your life's problems. It can give you new perspectives and for some people that will be all they needed. But I think often people expect a bit too much and I think thats some of the point this guy was trying to address. Don't expect the shaman to teach you the secrets of the universe because guess what? He doesn't know them either! No one does!

The speaker also makes it seem like money coming in from tourism is a bad thing because he sees it as staining the culture. Well most of these people are poor and even if they have to earn money selling jungle brews to white people who cares? I would do it if I were them. Many people in these cultures want to go to the cities and go to school and become doctors and teachers etc. Why deny them that just because we think its beautiful that they still live traditional life styles? I think thats the real tragedy is that we expect them to stay in this life style because we somehow view it as pristine and untouched. Its the same attitude we had to them when we thought we should convert them into our life style during colonial times. They are just people treat them like people! You know?



 
burnt
#18 Posted : 3/8/2010 8:55:13 AM

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Godspark interesting post.

I think many things are being left out in these anthropoligical studies of the societies that are currently around (I don't know the author you cited). One thing thats was not brought up is all the societies and small tribes who died out because of famine or disease. Or the rates of child mortality. Famine and disease were far more likely to wipe out entire populations before we had a stable food supply and technology. The societies you see now are the ones who adapted.

However I agree that the entire need for agriculture was a result of population growth. But it was agriculture which allowed the division of labor. This is what allowed human culture to flourish. Without the division of labor there would be NO HUMAN CIVILIZATIONS AT ALL! I view that as profoundly negative.

Quote:
Do we assume that we can explain the division of wealth in the world by saying that some nations have progressed and others have not? Or is the concept of progress-the idea that human history is the story of a steady advance from a life dependant on the whims of nature to a life of control and domination over natural forces- a fabrication of contemporary societies based on ethnocentric notions of technological superiority?


Its not a fabrication its reality. Look at it from an evolutionary perspective (something some anthropologists never do). Those species that are best able to adapt will survive and breed more. That's how life works. Humans are intelligent its why we can adapt so easily to so many conditions.

Also I think that the division of "wealth" can be explained by some nations progressing and others not. Its obvious. You can't blame everything on colonialism which is what so many people try to do and what so many westerners believe is the cause of poverty and stagnating societies in the developing world.

I blame many of the current situations on culture and religion however. That's what holds most of the world in poverty. The lack of women's rights and the blind march behind their so called cultural norms is why many societies remain in poverty. Of course there are situations where some nations are clearly suppressing others ability to grow but the blame often rests with the individuals in power as well as the society at large which often holds onto cultural practices which really are keeping them poor. Such as the inequality of women being one of the most important factors here.
 
Pokey
#19 Posted : 3/8/2010 8:41:14 PM

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burnt wrote:

I feel that many people who are looking for this lets "get back in harmony with nature" really don't know what they are talking about. There is no such thing as living in harmony with nature. Sure you can sit around on a lazy afternoon while camping and watch some birds hopping around chirping eating bugs and seemingly having a great time. What you don't see is how that bird gets killed and tortured to death by a cat or how the bird carefully kills and eats every single insect in a patch of grass. Everything in nature is basically killing or eating everything else in nature. Living in "harmony" with nature means you and everyone you know is going to die a lot faster then when you try to control or better adapt yourself (artificially) to deal with nature. Living in harmony with nature would suck honestly. I love camping I love the outdoors I love growing plants I love all that shit. But having a house and medicine and food rocks and anyone who doesn't see the connection with civilization and all those comforts we take for granted is a fool.


I really missed you Burnt! I am so happy you are backVery happy

Pokey the Pleased
 
Entropymancer
#20 Posted : 3/8/2010 8:49:03 PM

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I really enjoyed this talk. There's a lot of thoughtfulness it in. I think it's easy to lose sight of even the simple things that he talks about.

He opened on a really effective note, talking about Huautla de Jimenez. When I think of Huautla, I think of Schultes and Reko and Weitlaner and Wasson, about Western culture gaining awareness of teonanacatl and sxa pastora and all that... And then he brings into focus the ugly ramifications, and I felt stupid, just as he described his own revelation of stupidity on the subject when he found a curandero that gave him ololiuqui in a nearby valley.

I particularly like when he talks about westerners learning icaros, and how really the icaros are just empty forms that lack context in our culture.

At the same time though, I don't think it's inappropriate to appropriate the entheogens themselves into our own culture or practices. The plants themselves are powerful tools that can be applies in all manner of contexts (tobacco is probably the most poignant example of this). I think the error is in trying to appropriate the context along with the tool. Developing uses of the tools that are suited to our own cultural context are where both the challenge and the reward lie... Salvia is a great example of that; while its a sacred plant for some indigenous Mexicans, the average western reaction to the salvia experience is not positive, and I've said for years that the reason is because we lack the context for it.
 
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