Just wanna add that i didn't come up with the roasting thing, i got turned onto it by DownwardsFromZero, though quite a few folks had talked about roasting before i tried it.

Indeed. I only roasted the seeds because of suggestions of improved palatability here on the forum. This was followed by looking at the fluorescence of a brew made from a particularly dark-roasted batch - it was dark blue rather than the usual yellow green. The suggestion that this might have something to do with reduced harmaline levels and relatively higher harmine levels was what inspired ShamensStamen, iirc.

Coincidentally, this was something I was planning to post about having had some further thoughts about it in the past few days. Mainly that the blue fluorescence could be down to caffeic acid as much as anything else.

Lately I've favoured brewing ground, raw seeds - at least in terms of effects and potency. The resulting brew is utterly revolting and I struggle to drink it Surely there must be some kind of middle ground in this

With some luck there may be a chance for me to try fresh seeds and/or other plant material since, for the first time, my seedlings have survived beyond the sprouting phase. There'll be some photos to share on the forum before too long.

This is fascinating. Don't know how I managed to go so long without keeping up...

I am very curious now, and am contemplating growing some rue, somewhere, where I can try this out for myself. Mainly because I simply love harmalas. I've yet to come across a combination that I haven't liked. Granted, it seems to be an acquired taste. It took time for me to get used to all of the different combinations of "flavors," but after sticking it out, much like ShamenStamens stated, there is an adjustment and everything clears up tremendously, laying the foundation for big work. I tend to either drink rue tea or smoke harmalas (lately just harmine, because less seems to be more than with my "full-spec" rue extract) for my meditation time. A good way to almost "force the state"; All I want to do is meditate once enough is in my system.



I recently roasted and brewed 100g of seeds and then reduced the total volume of the brew to less than a liter. My dose is between 4ml and 5ml. Pretty easy to take in one or a couple gulps. It helps that honey was added to the jar it's stored in before the brew was poured in for storage... A lot of honey

I am curious how long this will last in the refrigerator though.

One love

Roasting is a known traditional method with rue seeds. However I don't believe it is in the domain of proper entheogenic use. It just diminishes the spirit of rue.

Is it possible that there is more than one proper domain of use such that working with an entheogen in a certain permutation gives one a different permutation of flavor that's no better or worse than another?

One love

Better or worse are adjectives to use for the outcome of a clearly defined purpose.

You can get benefits from rue without experiencing it's spirit in full.

Allow me to rephrase: is it possible to administer in a different way other than raw snd still experience the full spirit but in a different format?

The reason for my curiosity can be shared by asking another question: given that admixture plant entheogens for ayahuasca are introduced to heat, would you also say that one is not experiencing the full spirits of those plants as well?

One love

Could you perhaps make a post detailing your growing process as I, and many others from what I've read, could also not get past the sprouting phase?

In Ayahuasca, the plants are not roasted. Cold water extraction, simmering, boiling, roasting are all different preparations with different outcomes. Secondly, every plant is different and requires a kind of preparation that suits it's nature. Take Salvia. It is possible to experience the spirit of the plant with a tea, not just subtle energetically but also with the miniscule amount of Salvinorin a and other active constitutes that are dissolved in the water. But it is proven that Salvinorin a is very poorly soluble in water and eating the leaves is considered the proper way in the traditional setting. You cannot brew salvia as you brew Ayahuasca if your intention is to experience the spirit of the sage in its full power.

OK, perhaps I will. But first, a brief outline here. The main things I did were 'soaking' a pinch of seeds overnight in my own mouth, then spitting them into a plant pot with gritty compost. At some point in the spring, one of the pots went outside (others were outside already). The pot had had a Coleus plant in it which had succumbed to compost gnats feeding on the roots. It ended up in a partly shaded spot next to the door of my greenhouse and, other than the occasional watering to ensure it didn't get entirely dried out, it was largely forgotten about. After the recent spell of hot dry weather, where I had been away for about three weeks, I was surprised to come back to one fairly well-developed seedling and several other sprouts.

The main thing (as has often been said if you look into it a bit) is to basically leave the plant alone and only really remember it for keeping the seedlings from drying out completely. Another thing seems to be that the seedlings like a bit of grit and debris to hide in. They prefer a little protection from the midday sun at first, and I suspect they also enjoyed the warm evenings which both the westerly aspect and the greenhouse will have helped with.

Current picture attached below. Largest seedling is on its 5th set of true leaves. Green ring thingy is about 12cm ø.

I understand, that's why I used a broader term of "introduced to heat."

So according to your view, if I were to not roast them and just boiled them instead, would I, in your view, be working with more or less of the spirit of rue?

One love

It's not about my view. You can objectively measure the weakened activity qualitatively and quantitatively when you roast the seeds. With roasting it becomes less harsh in taste and also experientially so it is understandable why some people prefer roasting.

My use of the phrase "proper use" was not the best choice. This is not about right or wrong. There are many ways to work with a plant. For example Santo daime emphasizes the chacruna, while tribes emphasize the caapi. I like to emphasize the rue.

Gotcha, yeah, while I've been drinking rue tea for a while, and am very connected with harmalas, I do feel very preliminary in my understanding still, hence my queries. So thank you.

I think I may try eating some raw seeds and see what happens. Thoughts?

One love

Yep. There's a certain beauty to the trade off - dynamic struggle, even - between the full, 'wild' effects of the raw seed along with its complete and utter repugnancy as a brew (even wormwood and centaury - combined - are more tolerable than that) in comparison to the altogether more palatable yet somehow more 'tame' or even 'domesticated' effects of the roast material.

Analogies that spring to mind are wild horse vs. librarian (but you do get some pretty funky librarians out there )

I can happily drink a 7g roasted brew (7g before roasting, == a 10mL scoop) whereas the raw stuff I tend to split into 2 halves for two separate days' doses.


Here's attached a pic of smaller pot with some less happy seeds - east facing wall with sun up to midday, more wind exposure, smaller pot with more grit, less debris, accidentally crusted with algae. Was pretty much entirely dried out until I watered it a couple of weeks ago. Might move this one down next to the other one. Clay pots seem less optimal for germination as they dry out too easily. The location is overall more harsh though - lost a cactus here last winter. Tbh, I'm pretty surprised these are alive at all. I think they deserve a bit of evening sun and more westerly winds.

Nice discussion!



I was wondering how you reached that conclusion? Is this based on your personal experience of effects, some data, or simply common sense reasoning (e.g. oxidation)?



I'd say go for it. Will do the same thing and report back how it compares to my cold soaks (which I usually do). I almost feel that the various ways of consuming rue (e.g. cold, brew, eat whole) vis-a-vis peoples' subjective experiences of effects would deserve its own thread. Although I don't dare to post one, as there are already so many good ones on rue around currently. :-)

So, dithyramb, question. I typically roast and brew 4g. If I were to just eat them, based on what I'm used to, how much do you think I should start with? Also should I grind them, or just swallow them?

One love

Hi voidmatrix. I don't know the exact conversion of strength, however I could recommend to eat no more than 3g if you are used to a tea of roasted 4g. It will still be more wild and visionary than what you are used to. And it will be harsher than what you are used to. Also I have not studied the difference between chewing and just swallowing powder - saliva may or may not help with the digestion. Definitely don't swallow whole seeds. Either chew whole seeds thoroughly before swallowing, or swallow powder.

MuteUSO, what I write is based on my personal experience and common sense.

Roasting definitely does not increase THH or any other active component. It serves only to trim and tame.

dithyramb,

I'm super curious to try sprouted rue. Wondering your sprouting technique? I've sprouted things many times because but never with the object of taking in their water soluble components.

Hi TheAwakening. Sprouting rue is miraculous imo. Unfortunately the actives somehow don't dissolve in full power in water when rue is sprouted so it requires a sensitivity to subtle energies to appreciate it but if you can perceive the quality it is priceless.

Just as with sprouts which are used as food, sprouted rue is most effective when eaten fresh. And what happens to the seeds? The spirit is unlocked. It becomes a most clear and connective link to the spirit world, foremost your own karmic energy field. Not so mind centered as in raw seeds, but heart and spirit centered. And the roughness is smoothed out with the help of the incorporated water element. This is the only way I consume rue. Sprouting needs to be accomplished as quickly as possible and with minimum water in order to minimize loss of actives. It is a science and art. I have never heard of rue being sprouted mentioned anywhere, it's all completely my own study and discovery, following guidance/inspiration I had from a dieting retreat (Amazon style plant dieta) I did with rue in 2018.

Sprouted rue seeds sound like they deserve a thread of their own. It would certainly be helpful if we had a place to share experience with sprouting technique and the use of sprouted seeds.

dithyramb, have you used any other plants ('light' plants, perhaps) in combination with the sprouted seeds?

Now that rue has finally graced me with setting root in my garden I sincerely am keen to take this path further.

My experience with general sprouting technique is that a brief rinse will suffice for the vast majority of seeds so I can only presume that this applies to rue as well. Do your dose suggestions apply to the dry weigh of the seed before sprouting? Have you found there to be a significant amount of useful alkaloids in the soaking/rinsing water? (I'm not averse to finding my own way, of course.)