murklan - I'm wondering about the chemistry of your well water. There may be an insoluble double salt of harmalla alkaloids and something like magnesium from your water that only forms at lower temperatures, but once formed it resolutely refuses to redissolve.

I also suspect the seeds of possibly containing oxalates and/or other organic anions which will form an insoluble precipitate with calcium or magnesium - maybe phytates? Perhaps this precipitate will adsorb some of the alkaloids leading to the observed fluorescence. The amounts of available phytate/oxalate were perhaps increased by your more thorough grinding this time.

Phytates seem like a reasonable candidate here because they're comprised of a phosphate substituted polyol. Magnesium ammonium phosphate is very poorly soluble in water so perhaps magnesium harm(al)inium phytate is similarly insoluble?

That's the two ideas that have sprung to mind so far, and it's worth noting they're not mutually exclusive, they could compound each other.

downwardsfromzero- Interesting, thank you for sharing!

I've now done it again. 4 boils with citric acid. But this time with distilled water. Base with sodium hydroxide, filter and re-dissolve with warm distilled water + citric acid. Worked well... for a while. Then when it cooled I noticed grains/sand forming both in the filter and in the filtered liquid. A bit pale compared to the big ones yesterday but still similar.

If it was oxalates or precipitate with calcium or magnesium, would it not dissolve in warm acid water?

One think is that I did not clean the seeds before and it might be some pieces of soil with them. Clay or some minerals? Might contain calcium or magnesium.

Do you think I could use the liquid, just filter out this grains? Do a manske? I'll try that I think...

The new thing for me is that I use sodium hydroxide for basing, usually I use Sodium carbonate.

Thank you. This is not the right thread for general rue extractions so I might start another one.

Well i mean this is a dark roast Rue thread, so i guess extractions would be acceptable discussion here lol.

As for my extraction, just filtered out the precipitate a moment ago, idk what i got but while it looks like extract, it doesn't look like much at all, so i think i done messed up somewhere. I'll get back to the extraction stuff sometime in the next week or so, but my next extraction will probably be straight to Manske, see how that goes. I don't get it though, the a/b extraction should've very well worked properly, i mean it does with raw Rue, i've done Rue extractions many times, never had an issue until now. I'm thinking it either has to do with the way i'm roasting or the oils from the seed may change somehow during roasting, i hope to get it figured out though because i much prefer full spectrum extract over isolated Harmine, but hopefully the Manske at least will do alright. Would roasting have any impact at all in making the brew more acidic possibly, thus necessitating more base? Although the dark roast teas don't seem to be acidic tasting to me, so idk. Washing soda should've definitely precipitated the extract though, it did in my previous extractions on raw Rue.

Just to update on my first extraction using the dark roast. The first batch i did definitely precipitated a wee bit of extract, and when the extract was dissolved it glowed blue, and when smeared onto my fingers it glowed a bright blue, indicating it could very well be Harmine and probably is. Unfortunately the yield was less than desirable, so something seems to have gone wrong somewhere, for me anyways.

I'll get around to doing another extraction, this time a Manske, hopefully sometime this weekend or sometime next week. I figure the Manske should definitely work.

Also, i do have some concerns that if roasted too much, Harmine content may break down too, but i'm not sure, as i've had a few batches of brew that seemed pretty weak when roasted at 7 or above on the stove, whereas around 5 or 6 on the stove setting the brew turns out well. Idk if this is the case for sure, but it's something to keep in mind going forward i guess. But, i did have a thought last night, apparently Harmaline metabolizes into Harmalol in the body, and Harmine metabolizes into Harmol, and apparently those compounds, iirc, have been found in Rue as well, and i got to thinking, what if Harmalol or Harmol are actives remaining in the dark roast? And would Harmalol or Harmol be capable of inhibiting MAO-A? Also, do we know the fluorescence of Harmalol or Harmol? What about half-lifes?

Really interesting questions ShamensStamen.

As I've written, I have only done one a/b extraction from my dark roasted rue. And that was a surprisingly large yield. I think I roasted the seeds quite much, not black but dark brown. The brew on them were pleasant but still had some bitterness. Like coffee in comparison.

I have no experience of pure Harmine or Harmaline separately but the brew from dark roasted seeds really altered the DMT experiences. From what I've read in a way that you would expect from Harmie.

I can also say that regarding MAOI of the brew, perhaps a bit less then I would expect from Harmine & Harmaline mix.

Hope someone has some insights about Harmalol or Harmol.

I found that I actually don't prefer the burnt taste in the brew after roasting. Another option for a harmaline-free brew is using early season harvested seeds. August or early September depending on climatic region. The experience really is clearer, the mind is free to think as usual. This can be desirable, however full blown immersive experiences with ego death are not achieved in this way. Harmaline has an important function in rue. The breaking down of the regular thought process is what enables ego-death/ego-transcendence and the powerful healing that comes from it. Apparently Caapi does this with other constituents. The function of these plants is beyond mere maoi and counting solely on the n,n in the drinking route may be misguided. So I say these discoveries are good but should not replace all rue use.

I agree that some Harmaline is more preferred than a Harmine-only kind of Rue, however, i like and appreciate it all. You can do a lighter roast though and maintain some Harmaline content ime, or mix roasted and raw together. Also, i really do think there's chemical differences going on depending on how they're roasted, so it's worth experimenting around with i think.

As for the taste of the dark roast, idk, i don't mind it, doesn't taste burnt to me, tastes like an herbal tea, or like sweet tea lol.

I agree though, Harmaline has certain benefits that Harmine lacks, and i do miss them to a certain extent, however, i really am liking this dark roast, and i like changing things up from time to time. I consume Rue very regularly, daily for months at a time, and the last year or so i've mostly been just taking the same dosage and just letting things get stronger and stronger, but with Harmaline in the mix sometimes i just find it zaps my motivation and such after awhile, and so being able to get the MAO-A inhibition and some other medicinal benefits from the dark roast has been a nice change up for me. It just depends on what i'm going for, i LOVE Harmaline, but i do like working with other things as well.

This dark roast isn't to get rid of Harmaline forever, but to offer a cleaner form of Rue for others to enjoy. I unfortunately do not have access to fresh and early season Rue seed, i do want to try to grow my own at some point though if possible, i think i live in a climate suitable enough for it (i think like 8b iirc), so hopefully one day i'll be able to experiment around with that.

What i really hope happens at some point though is for the roasted Rue (of varying degrees) to be analyzed to see the chemical differences going on, and i hope they also can try analyzing various forms of fresh Rue harvested during different times or in different climates, as well as analyzing other kinds of Peganum species.

I agree with both of you ShamensStamen and dithyramb.

I really like that you can alter the constituents of rue seeds by simply dark roasting them. But I personally don't think that this DRR will be my default when taking DMT. After a journey a few days ago with a full extract of rue I really understand that I need the raw (supposedly) Harmaline heavy mix to step out of my ordinary consciousness and connect to feelings on a deeper plane. But I also see that for me going with the DRR could make DMT 'cleaner' and perhaps make it easier for a breakthrough experience. For me it seems that is quite difficult when Harmaline is present. (as a side note, I have not really understood the 'breakthrough' thing. Either I have not had it or I value other things more).

Personally, i can definitely tell that Harmaline is Rue's strength and power, it is certainly the primary active compound in Rue, and has a lot of it's own benefits that Harmine lacks. At this point, while i do ultimately prefer the raw Rue, i think for me, going forward, i may at some point try mixing the dark roast and raw in a good ratio, so that Harmaline is still strong, but that Harmine is more dominant, so Harmine would be the dominant active with Harmaline right behind it, i think that would be nice. It's also nice that you'd be able to adjust the ratios of Harmine to Harmaline depending on what you want to get out of it. If only creating THH was this easy lol, then Rue would be a truly alchemical plant, although it already is imo, in more ways than one.

Also, to make a Rue-based experience cleaner, there's supplements and admixture plants for that, hence one reason i like Lemon Balm, it cleans up the bodyload and headspace and smooths out the come up. I also think a little bit of Mucuna extract dosed a couple hours before the Rue can help make things clearer/cleaner as well due to the increase in Dopamine and Noradrenaline. A little bit of Caffeine also can make the headspace a little clearer. There's quite a few things imo that could be used to clean up the effects of Rue, while retaining the benefits of Harmaline and without needing to reduce Harmaline dosage.

There's literally, imo, a vast world of herbal and supplemental "add ons" that could be mixed with this stuff for various purposes, it's just weird to me how people stick to a basic concoction without getting more into different combinations, especially with Aya. Like even with mushrooms, people usually just take mushrooms and have a mushroom experience, but you add some Rue, it becomes Psilohuasca, a completely different kind of experience. Or you add Lemon Balm to the mushrooms, different kind of experience. I don't know why people aren't figuring out herbal and/or supplemental combinations and mixing them with their Psychedelics, i feel like there's a lot of potential there.

Btw, off topic but kinda on topic, i decided earlier this morning to drink a dose of dark roast Rue, and it's pretty dang functional and i definitely feel the Harmine. Harmalas do also clean up themselves the more regularly you consume them, so over time they will be medicinally functional medicines, like i can drive a car on stiff dosages of Harmalas once my body gets more acclimated to them and the side-effects go away and things clean up, i can do things around the house, i try to teach my step kids some valuable lessons lol (keyword, try, lol).

Anyways though, off topic part is i occasionally take Gabapentin (600mgs), and me being Autistic, i find it helps me feel more functional and normal, idk what's going on there, but i mixed my Gabapentin with the dark roast Rue dose earlier, as well as some Magnesium, and it's been a pretty good day so far today even though i had little sleep last night, which reminds me, i also drank a cup of Coffee like an hour before the dark roast Rue, so i've got that going on too lol. But yeah, very functional, who would'a thunk it? lol, especially when it comes to Harmaline, you wouldn't think it'd clean up like it does, but in the beginning it can be quite rough, over time though, it gets as clean feeling as Harmine, for the most part.

Just wanna say real quick, CB1 agonism goes really well with Harmalas, idk about anyone else, but for me they synergize very nicely and it brings out the Harmalas, and the Harmalas bring out it. I only recently realized how large of a role Cannabis had played in my previous Aya experimentation, it helped me pick up on a lot of the subtleties, and definitely provides some Light. Had some D8-THC-O-A tonight with my dark roast Rue, woo boy, strong stuff lol.

So yesterday i brewed up another 100 grams of dark roast, this time for a manske extraction, roasted halfway between 5 and 6 on the stove, glows blue, concentrated it down, added some vinegar, added 20 grams of salt per 100mls of liquid (100 grams of salt for 500mls of brew total), sat in the fridge overnight, so far ain't anything happening that i can see. This is quite puzzling. I have a feeling there's something going on with the oil layer on top of these dark roast Rue brews that is hindering the ability for the Harmine to precipitate out, i mean, that's gotta be it, right? Or is there something i'm missing?

As far as the oil goes, i think if this manske doesn't work out (and i know the brew has Harmine because i can without a doubt feel it when i drink these brews), i'll likely see about roasting the seed and see if i can roast them until right before the seeds start looking glossy/oily, and then brew it up and see what's what. I mean technically, the oil should still be there in raw seed, right? So you wouldn't think it'd be an issue, but idk, i'm gonna try everything i can think of and see where it takes me. I wonder if i could like suck/siphon off the top oily layer, and see if that helps with anything. Maybe a defat would work, but that just makes things more of a process and i want to see if i can get this done pretty easily.

I'm curious. How do you take a CB1 agonist? D8 or D9, orally, smoking, vaping, dabbing? I've tried a rue extract sublingual with some vaped cannebis and found it to go well together. Wonder how it would be with the dark roasted rue extract I've made.

Strange that you didn't get any from tha manske. When I roasted the seeds did get i bit more shiny but not really glossy. Did you grind the seeds after roasting or not?

I mainly just vape/smoke CB1 agonists, mainly HHC and D8, rarely i'll still partake in Cannabis. I really haven't gotten much into edibles, at some point i do want to though. I find CB1 agonism definitely brings out more of the effects of the Harmalas compared to Harmalas by themselves.

I haven't bothered grinding the seeds because powdered seed can be a bit messier and whole seeds seem to brew just fine ime. But yeah, really weird about the manske, i'm currently filtering it, then probably gonna heat it back up on the stove, add some more salt, and try again. Then if still nothing, gonna try basing again and see what happens then.

Soon i'm gonna try to do a few experiments to see if i can roast it to a certain point without making it look oily, and see what happens then, last thing i can think of would be to try to suck off the top oily layer before salting or basing and see if that makes any difference.

I see. It's interesting with the harmalas/cannabis combination and I will continue trying this out. Thanks for bringing it up. Have read about it before but you made me try it out.


Yes grinding rue, I don't know how much more you'll get by doing that. Last time I worked with a potato masher on the seeds afer simmering in acid water.

Hope you'll get something out by doing more salt or basing again.

Seeing that grinding seeds or not has been mentioned, I'll just say (probably again) that using ground seeds I get rapid, effective results using a coffee percolator with a standard paper coffee filter. Running a second lot of water through the material helps to ensure that a decent proportion of the alkaloids gets extracted.

The brew comes through nice and clear, although a deposit of what I assume to be calcium salts appears on standing if I've used tap water. Even with distilled water a certain amount of clouding occurs on cooling.

The brew seems to start out light brown but begins to throw down a dark precipitate while becoming darker overall. Maybe this is a result of oxidation. I usually run it through a cotton wool plug to clear it up before drinking.

I roast 3.5g of seeds fairly dark then throw in another 3.5g and turn off the heat, effectively making a half and half light and dark roast blend. This works nicely as is and also does an excellent job of activating mimosa alkaloid tincture.

You got my attention But what kind of coffee percolator do you mean? This kind ?



Yes I've had this strange deposits in 2 of my 3 last rue extractions. Also hade some with distilled water.



So you drink it as a brew. I've always been cautious of that, always doing a/b extractions with manske. I think it was something I read when I started, that you would get more nauseous and that it might be bad for you. Later I read that perhaps it's only bad for pregnant women. But for sublingual use a extraction is necessary and that was what I wanted to do with it.

But since doing my first dark roasted rue -brew I kind of changed my mind. Now I might want to explore more of the whole seed. But isn't 7g of seeds quite a lot if the extraction/brewing is good?

Hi downwardsfromzero ..

if i could ask..whats the benifit of putting rue seeds through all this heating and boiling?

are you trying to make it weaker..or cleaner in some way?

does it feel better with spice?

So far, no luck with the freebased or manske extractions. I know i'm not doing something wrong because i've done this stuff on Rue plenty of times and while i might be a bit rusty because i haven't done it in awhile, i know the process very well and haven't forgotten it, so i know i'm doing things right. Imo, i think there's something up with the oil in the brew, or there's something going on in the dark roasted seed that's preventing the extract from being precipitated. Not to discourage people from attempting extraction, perhaps i am doing something wrong somewhere and someone may be able to figure out what's going on. This is probably just an issue with dark roasted seed, like black seed, glossy looking (due to the oil), so light or perhaps even medium roast may do better when it comes to extraction. I'm not sure if experimenting with temp or duration of roasting would produce a more successful result, at some point i may well try roasting at a lower temp and perhaps a longer duration at a lower temp, on a small amount of Rue, and then check the fluorescence and try to find out at which point it turns blue.

starway7 - For me the point of dark roasting the Rue seed is to break down the Harmaline, and having a Harmine-dominant Rue effect/experience. I haven't yet tried it with DMT, i have tried light roasts with 4-ACO-DMT and it worked amazingly. It is a cleaner effect, gentler, relaxing, not as impairing as Harmaline, but at the same time it does lack certain benefits/effects that Harmaline provides but Harmine doesn't, so some Harmaline imo is a good thing, and i personally like Harmaline and have been working with Rue on a regular basis since 2012 so i've really become quite fond of Harmaline. At the same time though, i am really diggin' this dark roast, it's nice to get away from the Harmaline for awhile and try something a bit different. As far as it being weaker goes, it is weaker because of the lack of Harmaline and Harmine being weaker than Harmaline, Harmaline is the power and intensity of Rue, whereas Harmine/dark roast Rue is more similar to Caapi being more gentle, less intense, more warm and welcoming.

downwardsfromzero - About the calcium salts, i've noticed this too, sometimes i've filtered them out, other times i've just left them and consumed them.

I've continued experimenting and have now two experiences that might say something. I want to try around more but I think I've found a mixture that I really like.

I've had 150mg extracted Rue (a unknown ratio of Harmaline/Harmine that I've made) and 50-60 mg of the crude extraction (only a/b) of the dark roasted Rue I had.
Then waiting 3h and vape DMT.

When I've taken only dark roasted Rue, or the extraction of it, I've experienced that my ordinary consciousness don't change much (feeling 'sober' while tripping really hard) and that I missed the feeling of a 'larger mind' and the connection to deeper feelings. But I also liked parts of the clearness with a Harmine dominated DMT experience.

So now with the 150 mg Harmaline/Harmine mix + 50-60 mg Harmine it's been great! More clear, less druggy but still deep emotions and large headspace (and also a bit like I'm stepping down into my subconsciousness).



Interesting to read how you feel it. For me Harmine/dark roasted Rue is not very warm, more clear and sharp. Not in a negative way, like cold or heartless, just less emotional.
But I guess we all react somewhat differently. Good to exchange experiences.