Hey folks,

Has anyone here ever taken kratom for a prolonged time and/or in "high doses" (that obviously very ambiguous)? If so, what was your experience coming off of it? Did you have withdrawal? None, alot, mild etc?

I basically want to just throw this out there to hopefully get some input that might be less skewed than reddit query results. I haven't talked to anyone in real life that's come off a chronic dose... The only time I came off it cold turkey was about 6 or 7 years ago and I can't use that time as frame of reference... Too long ago, too many other differences etc.

I was unsure whether it would be best to post this here or one of the health subforums...

Anyways, if anyone has firsthand (or secondhand) experience I would appreciate the feedback..

Hi Spiralout,

I had my time with kratom about a decade ago, but I can still remember being on and off it clearly.

First of all I want to mention that I never did any other opiates. When I discovered kratom in a smartshop it was described as non addictive, which has always been one of the criteria for me, when I chose to try a new substance. The effects were described as a mix of opiates and cocain. I was curious.
I ordered a small sample and when I tried it I was convinced that this is an awesome plant to enjoy my evenings after a hard day's of work on the construction yard. It really took away all aches and pains. It also made me feel content and made me forget about things that occupied my mind. So much better than a beer and it complemented my cannabis buzz perfectly.

So I ordered a kilo of it. I used it every day. I started with 3 gram, but I never used more than 6 gram at a time if I remember correctly. The duration of the effects became shorter and shorter over time and it didn't give me the feeling that I got during the first month or so.
That's when I started to realize that kratom might not be what I wanted it to be. I really had to stop myself from taking more to try to achieve the effects that I got from it in the beginning. But of course there was another side of me that convinced me to continue using it. So I did, till my stash was gone. That was the first time in months that I went without kratom and I really felt bad. Like I had a flue. Runny nose, aching joints and super moody.
That's when it really dawned on me that it is not as non addictive as it was made out to be by the vendors. It took me 1-2 weeks to get over it.

However I saw others had/have different experiences, so it seems to me that it effects people differently. Maybe I reacted to it the way I did, because I never did any opioids before.

All in all I think kratom can be very useful for pain management. I would choose it over the conventional pain medication. But it is not a substance I could use over a long time frame. It needs to used responsibly.

That is my experience with kratom.

Hey spiral, I wish I had more first hand experience to help you with. My only real experience with it has been trying to use it to titrate from a small heroin habit and to try to ameliorate low-level W/D symptoms AFTER titrating from methadone. Neither was successful for me, mostly because of the expense of constant re-dosing as it has a very short half-life compared to those other two drugs. I could feel it scratching the itch, it definitely lights up in my opiate brain, but just doesn't last long enough and the kind of habit I would get from it would be astounding I am sure if I continued using it. I just know better than and stay away from it for my personal safety.

Kratom really bugs me because of experiences like fridge's. I have heard that story before. And others. Too often it is assumed to be safe because it is a plant. But I have seen multiple- many- addictions to it first hand that were just as dependancy building as any other opiate or -oid. Unfortuantely many people refuse to believe or admit they are addicted because...it's a plant. As if the opium poppy is not. Then there are unscrupulous dealer stories. An acquaintance who has no other reason to lie to me than the fact that he has lips (which is seemingly enough for many people to lie, admittedly) told me he was popping for fentanyl is his UAs and the only thing he was taking is store-bought kratom. Seems a little extreme and risky to me for a legit carrier to do that, but you never know.

I wish you luck with your taper and eventual cessation if that is what you wish to pursue. Can you talk to your doctor about it? They may be able to prescribe some clonidine, which is very helpful for opiate WD. It is a blood pressure medication but it works to quiet down the centers in your brain that are going haywire in WD. It will drop you with low blood pressure, to be warned but it can almost entirely eliminate symptoms if dosed pretty high- but it is dangerous to do that because of low b.p. They may also be able to prescribe a sort of "kick-pack" as we used to call it- clonidine, some immodium for the runs, some cal-mag for the restless leg, some ibuprofin (gabbapentin also works for the pain and for relaxing and your doctor may be cool with prescribing it off label), etc. If you have a good relationship, talk to them, they could be a great ally in this.

I don't think your symptoms will be really bad, at least compared to heroin or other full agonist opiates, but still the discomfort may be too much and you may have a better chance with some meds. Of course taking it easy, keeping stress levels low, hot baths and showers and support from people around you are also good prescriptions.

If you need support in any way we can help, keep posting and thanks for sharing your experience. Please let us know how you are doing as you progress with this, it may help others who are looking for information in the future as you are now. Peace- be good to ya, man.

Hey Spiralout. Let me begin by saying that I have met people from both ends of the spectrum. I have friends who have serious addiction potentials with any substances who said that Kratom was awful for them and they had terrible, terrible withdrawal from it. Some who were using up to 60 grams a day in 2-3 doses throughout the day. I also know several people, myself included who use it once a day in the morning to help get out of bed. I have awful pain in my back due to narrowing space between discs and arthritis combined. I also have an old shoulder injury that causes my shoulder to "slide" that plagues me on a daily basis as well, and a calcium deposit on my knee cap that becomes bothersome in the cold or the rain. I also have a history of opiate addiction which makes it nearly impossible to do any sort of standard practice pain management. The last time I used Suboxone to titrate my dose down to a reasonable level so as not to experience any significant withdrawals. Which worked wonders, but once I came off of the Suboxone, all of my pain creeped right back in. Approximately 30 days after my last dose of Suboxone, I began to take Kratom. I started with 4-5 grams a day, once a day, and fluxuate from that dosage to about 14-17 grams once a day as a tolerance settles in. It takes me 3-4 months to work my way up to the later doses. Once I get to that level, I stop for anywhere between 3-7 days depending on my work load and my pain levels. With this use, I, myself have never experienced anything I would even equate with "withdrawal". Sometimes I have a hard time getting to bed for the first night or two when I go on breaks, but I have never experienced anything that even comes close to what I would refer to as a "traditional" opiate/opioid withdrawal. I do make sure that I only dose a second dose one day out of the week, and only when I am in pretty bad pain. I suspect that only doing one dose a day with the short half life helps me not to develop an addiction, but this is just a hypothesis.


That being said, I know that there are folks who have had bad issues, and I suspect that several factors come into play, such as size/frequency of dosage, use in conjunction with traditional opiates/opioids, long-stretched durations of daily use with no breaks, body chemistry, and addiction potential of the user. I would tread lightly and take frequent breaks if you are going to continue use, but I can confidently say that Kratom has been a miracle and a blessing for me.

Blessings, friend

Re: Null24

Hey, thanks for the kind words. It definitely does scratch the same itch. I always sort of figured that it wasn't exactly the same though, since I don't remember getting withdrawals when I took it chronically years ago, and also due to the weird nature of the effects (the nystagmus, dizziness, cloudyheadedness, and general dysphoria, which were never present with any conventional [morphine, oxy etc] opiates/opiods)... However, I realize now after taking it for a longer period of time, and being older and more experienced, that it absolutely acts as an opiate ... Even if it is not a "normal" one... It is one. Full stop. I'm not disparaging it, but I did have the idea previously that it is benign, and I hear that thrown around so often that it is kind of annoying..

I've considered clonidine and gabapentin; I am pretty familiar with all of the usual things you throw at opiate withdrawal... The clonidine I want to stay away from due to concerns over possible side effects... I've used it in the past with withdrawal, and it is incredibly helpful imo (it somehow helps with the sweats, iirc, which I don't understand the reason for, and it also helped, to an extent with the RLS... the RLS was always one of the hardest things for me)... I don't think gabapentin has any serious side effect potential but I need to do some real research. I know it has some minor recreational value, but that is fine with me to be used transiently. I've been taking magnesium for a couple years and I'm going to up the dose prior to stopping.

Anyways, I gave my neighbor all but 100grams and she's not going to give me more for 10 days... Then I'll have 70grams for the next ten days... I actually forgot thanksgiving is coming up and should have had some contingency for that but whatever.

Re: ShamanistiveVibes:

Thanks for the thoughts. Yeah, I don't remember getting more than mildly sick and for a short time when I stopped taking it cold turkey back about 7ish years ago, and I was taking around 60grams a day at that time I would say. It was a bit hard to tell because I was tapering/detoxing off of etizolam at the same time though (went into a hospital) .

I definitely think you're correct that not constantly dosing, along with the short half life, is what wards away any acute tolerance. The worse habit I ever tried (multiple times)to kick was suboxone/buprenorphine, and I'm convinced a big reason behind that is the ridiculously long half life: your body NEVER has a chance to get back to baseline, for the entire duration that you are taking it. When you are taking dope or oxy etc. you at least sleep through the night (well, most of us...) without taking anything, and many of us go for somewhat longer times (12-24hours etc) due to not having money or being able to score. So you're body is able to regulate to some extent. Of course some people don't seem to withdraw very hard from suboxone, there is definitely some individual differences. There are tons of people who cite methadone as being the worse too though.

One of the things that worries me is that I'll end up with chronic pain (I'm only 31 now and luckily don't have any) and "need" to get on some opiates again. Hopefully by the time that happens I will have the wisdom to know how to regulate it. I'm at a point right now where I just want to be totally off all this shit and get back to feeling ok sober. I'll end up taking syrian rue, and some cactus or what not once I'm ready for it but that's a whole other ball of wax.

I took 15 grams plus daily for a year or so and withdrawals for me were like oppiate withdrawals combined with restless body syndrome. It's the reason I got on Subutex. I still take the subs, I've been down to 2mg a day for months now and doing ok. I'm thinking I may need to go back to 4, I wake up everyday with my jaw clenched which is p1 Bupenorphine withdrawals even though it's supposed to have a 36 hour half life.

I started consuming kratom about 4 years ago.
At first it was a wonderful feeling, then that feeling diminished until it became what it really is: a medicinal plant with many virtues.
In my case I consume it daily because I discovered that it greatly improves the absorption of sugars and improves insulin sensitivity, which greatly improves a diabetic-life, it also greatly improves mood and optimism, and makes you more understanding and calm, in social relationships. I would also say that it is the best substance to take if you have a physical job such as working in agriculture or any hard, tedious and repetitive work, cause it greatly improves physical endurance, and it is a substance that shines when one is in motion.

Tolerance grows in two ways both improvable, almost impossible, to avoid so to speak.
The first is that of euphoria, even if you consume every week once or twice, the euphoria will be less each time, your brain gets used to it and the sensation of rushes (although small at the beginning) are less and less frequent. The other has to do with the daily consumption and especially the consumption every x hours (multiple doses a day). If you enter into such consumption tolerance will grow a lot and the psychological aspects of kratom will be less and less, although in my case they have not disappeared, they are just more smooth. It is a substance with an incredible antidepressant capacity, the best I have tried and my girlfriend too (more important in the case of my girlfriend because she has taken Rx antidepressants, many different over the years, I have not). Sadly, if you want to keep the stimulant parts of it alive you will need to replenish both your dopamine and your adrenergic system (adrenals) as often as you can, some people take agmatine for the mu-opioid balance (nmda activity) and I would take anything that support the adrenergic system like ashwagandha (sure some people will know more than me on this).

Tolerance after a few months of taking them daily can lead to withdrawals. Interestingly, for me the first time I suffered them was the worst by far: a lot of fatigue, nervousness, anxiety and slight depression, some tremors and restlessness, snot and sneezing. The first time I went from 12 grams to nothing in a day and a bit. Right now I take about the same amount a day 8-12 grams a day, and have little trouble when I cut: I space the doses so that I go to taking 2 times a day instead of 3-4, then a couple of days taking 2, dropping 1-2 grams... and finally jump to zero from 3-6 grams, taking the last dose at night. The only thing I feel is very slight restlessness, trouble sleeping (I use ashwagandha and l-theanine when I cut and it fixes it) and some tiredness and lack of motivation (I use mucuna pruriens for that). Another VERY useful plant for kratom withdrawals is black seed oil, a couple of teaspoons a day.

In general kratom has to be considered a master plant in the sense of being a great medicinal plant, with a certain "spirit" that you learn from, in a way perhaps similar to calamus, but more versatile and more stimulating. In my case I do not consider it a drug although it can be used recreationally, that is not where it shines. The withdrawals are very mild, if one knows how to disconnect correctly and use it with moderation.

Spiralout,

I've been using Kratom for 2-3 years now and have had difficulty with WD from it. I feel like I may be an anomaly from average, but I'll share my experience with it as another point of reference for you.

I started taking it as "something to try", nothing to do with pain. The red vein varieties tend to be more sedative and pain killing, but I've always been interested in green vein, usually Maeng Da, for the stimulant effects - on it, household chores aren't such a drag, and I'm much more apt to conversation when normally I'm perhaps too quiet, etc.

The very most I ever took was 4 grams in a day, almost always in lime and sugar tea. I weigh 76kg, and 4 grams would wear me out like having too much coffee, and I noticed mood swings that I did not like. I cannot fathom taking 10, 20, 60 grams????

Several months ago I tapered down to about a gram a day and then quit, the first week was fine, but by end of second week I felt pain, mostly abdominal, and at first I did not make the connection but remembered one time I dated a girl going through WD from suboxone and she said she wasn't looking for the high on it as much as trying to avoid the WD body pain even after several weeks. I started taking my tea again, only 700mg, and the pain went away, and ever since then I've been in this nice, stable, happy place.

I do NOT like something having control over me, and I still take days off of it without problems, but after a few days I definitely notice.

Then there's others that can take more than 10x what I take and go to gym and work out and quit when they want to without adverse side effects. IDK, everyone's different.