CHATPRIVACYDONATELOGINREGISTER
DMT-Nexus
FAQWIKIHEALTH & SAFETYARTATTITUDEACTIVE TOPICS
Yopo snuffs - Calcium Bufotenate? Options
 
Entropymancer
#1 Posted : 4/16/2008 9:13:34 AM

DMT-Nexus member

Salvia divinorum expert | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorumExtraordinary knowledge | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorumModerator | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorumChemical expert | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorumSenior Member | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorum

Posts: 1367
Joined: 19-Feb-2008
Last visit: 12-Jun-2016
Location: Pacific Northwest
[Edit (11 Jan 2013): While I will leave the original post in tact for posterity, I eventually came to the conclusion that calcium bufotenate is a myth. The methods described most likely yield bufotenine as a free base. See post #8 below.]


Back when I first started looking into yopo/cebil (Anadenanthera peragrina and Anadenanthera colubrina) snuffs, I remember running into some discussion of "calcium bufotenate", and how better effects can be achieved through the use of slaked lime. Well, at the time I didn't know as much about chemistry, and I dismissed the compound as an internet fiction, since I was unable to find any references to the compound outside of an occasional erowid experience report or message board post. Consequently SWIM substituted baking soda for his snuff, and achieved interesting results... some psychoactivity, but mostly physical discomfort.

Lately I've been seeing people mention this compound, and knowing more about chemistry now than I did before, I decided to give the issue some fresh consideration. And I'm beginning to think that calcium bufotenate might exist. Since SWIM is too busy at the moment to do extractions and analytical work, this is kind of an APB to let extractors know they might be able to have the distinction of being the first to definitively demonstrate the existence of this compound.

First I'll lay out my reasoning in terms of why it's plausible that this compound exists. Then I'll talk about the most convincing piece of corroborating evidence, and how one might go about trying to make this compound, if SWIY is interested. (Sorry if I ramble a bit, I'm done with homework for the night and am taking the opportunity to catch a buzz).


My reasoning:

- The 5-OH group on bufotenine is weakly acidic. Based on the trends for other aromatic alcohols (phenol, naphthol), it's likely that the pKa of this group is somewhere between 9 and 10. It seems utterly inconcievable that it'd be higher than 10.5.

- Calcium hydroxide (slaked lime) is a pretty alkaline material, capable of getting water up to pH 12. Furthermore, as a metal hydroxide, it's capable of participating in neutralization chemistry (acid + metal hydroxide = metal salt + water).

Obviously the question then is simply whether bufotenine and calcium hydroxide have a sufficient affinity for one another to perform such chemistry. I turned up a reference to calcium phenolate in Handbook of Inorganic Compounds, which indicates that this sort of salt is plausible. And the Standard Methods of Chemical Analysis indicates that the phenolate forms by reaction with calcium carbonate, another neutralization reaction ("acid + metal carbonate = metal salt + water + carbon dioxide" ). Since calcium hydroxide is more alkaline than calcium carbonate, this pretty well substantiates the idea that bufotenine might be able to form a calcium salt.

Also, if you look into the ethnographic literature on South American natives, different tribes use/used a variety of bufotenin-containing preparations. In a very large number of these cases, the tribe places a strong emphasis on a preparation ritual where the bufotenin-containing material is mixed with slaked lime. It seems strange for such similar traditions to rise around such diverse materials, among totally unrelated tribes, unless the lime played some role in enhancing the effects. Of course, Jonathan Ott's bioassays indicate that bufotenine freebase is entirely capable of accounting for the effects of the shamanic snuffs and clysters.

There are various and sundry claims on the internet about different procedures, but many of them are lacking in substance or detail. I was able to find some very good information by a poster on the ayahuasca forums, druiddream, who I've found to be a very reliable poster in the past. Consider the following:

Quote:
If you were to do this one day, you could soak the snuff in an appropriate amount of acidified water, filter out the seed material, then basify it with calcium hydroxide until you get a fluffy precipitate at the bottom of your vessel. Then you can either pour this preparation (liquid + precipitate, but with no seed material in it) in a nasal sprayer after pouring out the saline solution that comes in it, or you can simply use a small 1/8tsp measuring spoon and insufflate the liquid, paying special attention to getting some of the fluffy precipitate in your spoon each time.


And some more detail on a method used to alleviate sciatic nerve pain:
Quote:
What she found so exceptionally effective was a 2g cold-water phosphoric-acid infusion of the seeds just as outlined in the recent LSA thread, leaving a practically CLEAR liquid with minimal nasty seed oils. She then boiled this down from 8oz. to 2oz. and basified with edible lyme to ph10. Then, before working with this liquid, she drank *without any revulsion* 2g of a similarly prepared cold-water infusion of Syrian Rue, but with no basification and sweetened to taste. (The cold infusion came out very light yellow without the characteristic foul, nauseating smell or taste of hot water Syrian rue extractions, she said). She then took a 1/8tsp. measuring spoon and began insufflating the equivalent of 1 tsp. of the LIQUID form of the basified yopo infusion over a 5 minute period. The small amount of liquid was easily snuffed up and there was no spillage or leakage. If liquid came down the nasal passage into the mouth, she just held the liquid sublingually and spat it out as need be (she said that surprisingly it didn't taste nasty like the hot water infusion of yopo does).


First off: Yes, it was ingested potentiated by an MAOI, so the effects she recieved may be different than those that are typically encountered. This is irrelavent; I'm not concerned with the specific effects right now (and the effects described did not include nausea, which would be expected from a typical rue+yopo mix).

Here's what interests me: A precipitate froms at pH 9-10. This would not be remarkable in itself, since this was made with a crude extract, that precipitate could be the result of any phytochemical soluble in acidic water. What interests me is the emphasis on making sure to get some of the precipitate in every sniff, implying that the precipitate is psychoactive. Bear in mind this is something that swidruiddream has done repeatedly, as she apparently finds it to be an effective remedy for sciatic nerve pain, not just a one-time report.

So when an acidic extract of yopo is treated with calcium hydroxide, a precipitate forms, and this precipitate appears to be centrally active. This is very interesting, because it's not possible that this precipitate is bufotenin freebase. Bufotenin freebase is sufficiently polar to be somewhat soluble in water; if it weren't, Jonathan Ott would have seem a precipitate in the ammonia step of his extraction, and been saved the trouble of recrystallization.


A couple of other things. I asked druiddream if this experimentor had tried collecting the precipitate, and using that material dry, without the liquid. Apparently she had not, as the liquid adminitration was found to be plenty effective. I should mention that it's entirely possible calcium bufotenin is unstable in the presence of air at atmospheric conditions; calcium phenoxide was found to be unstable under these conditions. So if SWIy decides to try this method, they ought to confirm psychoactivity of the precipitate before collecting it out of the water and drying it.

But of course shamanic snuffs were traditionally left to dry for a substantial period of time. There are three possibilities to my mind in this issue:

-The first is that they weren't preparing calcium bufotenate, just bufotenin freebase. Ott's published bioassays confirm that bufotenin freebase is capable of producing substantial visionary effects. (This is the currently accepted hypothesis)

-The second is that they were preparing calcium bufotenate, but it's unstable to environmental conditions and decomposed into bufotenin freebase and calcium (oxide? hydroxide? carbonate?). Again, the bufotenin freebase can entirely account for the shamanic effects of the snuff.

-The third possibility is that they were preparing calcium bufotenate, and that the material was at least semi-stable in their preparation. This is concievable; consider: when they left the snuff to dry, it's been reported that the excess calcium hydroxide (which is pretty alkaline for the nasal cavity) reacts with atmospheric carbon dioxide to make calcium carbonate (chalk). This material is less uncomfortable on the nasal passages than lime, but it's still alkaline. It's possible that being mixed thoroughly with an alkaline material prevents atmospheric moisture from dissociating the salt so easily.



If SWIM is interested in extracting this compound, an accurate melting point apparatus would be the simplest piece of equipment that I can see as capable of characterizing it definitively... If SWIY has isolated calcium bufotenate, SWIY could treat it with HCl and seperate the calcium from the bufotenine salt. Then treat the salt with aqueous ammonia (a la Ott's isolation) and isolate the freebase. The melting point of this material should correspond to one fo the three known melting points of bufotenine freebase, and differ from the melting point of the suspected calcium bufotenate.

Of course, more sophisticated analytical equipment would make the job easier... but it occurs to me that SWIY could even make a fair confirmation without access to melting point apparatus, simply by bioassays. Isolate bufotenin freebase, become familiar with the effects. Generate (suspected) calcium bufotenate, and sample the effects. Then generate the freebase from the (suspected) calcium bufotenate as above, and bioassay to confirm its identity. Obviously this method puts the experimentor at a bit more risk.

I think that's about it, in terms of what I've thought through so far anyway... so I guess I'll just tack Jonathan Ott's preparation and some links.

Quote:
ISOLATION AND PURIFICATION OF BUFOTENINE FREE-BASE

Coarse-ground powder of 125g of seeds of A. colubrina var. Cebil was stirred twice for eight hours in 500 ml of 96% ethanol 1% tartaric acid, the combined filtrates concentrated to 150 ml and diluted with 200 ml water in a separatory-funnel, causing precipitation of considerable fat. The pH was adjusted to 3-4 with concentrated hydrochloric acid, and the solution defatted by shaking six times with chloroform, which was set aside. The defatted extract was basified to pH 8-9 with ammonium hydroxide, then again extracted eight times with 200 ml chloroform; the combined chloroform extracts were concentrated to a foamy, yellowish oil that dissolved completely in 50 ml hot ethyl acetate, then concentrated to 15 ml and refrigerated overnight. In the morning there were a brace of minuscule rosettes of dark-brownish crystals growing at the base of the flask, which was alternated between periods under refrigeration and standing unstoppered at room temperature during 48 hours, leading to the formation of large masses (some greater than 1cm) of dark-brownish, prismatic crystals. The mother-liquor was decanted and the crystalline mass rinsed with cold ethyl acetate dried over magnesium sulfate, then dried under reduced pressure to yield 4.1 g of large, free-flowing, sparkling brownish crystals. These were twice recrystallized from dry ethyl acetate, yielding 3.87 g of off-white bufotenine free-base crystals (3. 10%), m.p. 125-126° C. Despite loss of chromophores on recrystallizations, the melting point remained 124-126°. Six reports of isolated bufotenine free-base, from Amanita citrina (Schaef.) Gray (Agaricaceae) (Wieland & Motzel 1953) and Anadenanthera species (Rendón 1984; lacobucci & Rdveda 1964; Pachter, Zacharias & Ribeiro 1959; Alvares Pereira 1957; Stromberg 1954-yields reported were from 0.94-7.4% for A. peregrina to 0.5-2.1 % for A. colubrina), disclosed two crystalline isoforms from ethyl acetate, one melting from [123-]124-126[-129]° C, the other 146-147[-150]° C. Two reports of synthetic material disclosed a third isoform, with melting points of 138-140° C (Stoll et al. 1955); and again 146-147° C (Speeter & Anthony 1954). In all cases involving the lower-melting-point isoforms, repeated purification did not alter the melting point, although Iacobucci and Rdveda (1964), upon seeding a recrystallization-solution of their lower melting point isoform (123-124° C) with crystals having m.p. 146-147° C, got only crystals of the latter type, which operation was not reversible. By manipulating conditions of recrystallization from ethyl acetate, I was able to generate crystals melting at 145-147° C, and confirmed Iacobucci and RtIveda's observation. DMT free-base from hexane likewise exists as at least three isoforms, melting points from 44-74° C having been reported, and Fish, Johnson and Horning (1956) replicated the irreversible transformation of a lower-melting-point isoform (47-49° C) into a higher-melting-point isoform (71-73° C). Identity and purity of isolated bufotenine were verified by mass-spectral analysis and thin-layer chromatographic comparison with an authentic sample in several solvent systems.




Links - By no means exhaustive, just the first handful I saw
Anadenthera colubrina / peregrina ,bufotenine , 5-OH-DMT
Yopo and Cebil
Yopo/Vilca as Medicinal Herbs
Yopo experiences
Isopropyl DMT extraction
Sharing Information about Yopo(A.Peregrina)
Vaporized Extract of Anadenanthera colubrina
Yopo - Anadenanthera colubrina Basics
Entropymancer attached the following image(s):
Calcium bufotenate.jpg (36kb) downloaded 576 time(s).
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
Noman
#2 Posted : 4/16/2008 9:46:52 AM

DMT-Nexus member

Senior Member

Posts: 1052
Joined: 18-Jan-2008
Last visit: 08-Sep-2024
Here's another link for you:
http://www.dmt-nexus.me/...OLD/viewtopic.php?t=1584
This is a new area of interest for my friend though he's more into smokable extract than snuff.
I'll post what he comes up with as he comes up with it.
 
Entropymancer
#3 Posted : 4/16/2008 4:51:50 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Salvia divinorum expert | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorumExtraordinary knowledge | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorumModerator | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorumChemical expert | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorumSenior Member | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorum

Posts: 1367
Joined: 19-Feb-2008
Last visit: 12-Jun-2016
Location: Pacific Northwest
Thanks for the link, it's been added to the list.

Apparently someone who shares this line of thinking editted the wikipedia article on Anadenanthera peregrina

Quote:
It must be noted that because bufotenine is a phenolic compound, the lengthy snuff processing with calcium hydroxide converts bufotenine into Ca + 5-O-DMT (calcium bufotenate/bufotenoxide). Ca + 5-O-DMT is a hallucinogen like DMT and psilocin and very unlike bufotenine. Snuff prepared without calcium hydroxide will contain large amount of bufotenine and no Ca + 5-O-DMT, and will produce nausea, tension, and a completely different hallucinogenic effect very unlike DMT and psilocin. Snuffs made with ammonia and other weak bases instead of calcium hydroxide, will create free base bufotenine and not Ca + 5-O-DMT. While free base bufotenine is psychoactive, it is very unlike DMT and somewhat toxic. Shamans typically prefer the effects of Ca + 5-O-DMT over bufotenine. This is why most shamans prepare yopo snuff using up to 33% calcium hydroxide and allow it to react overnight, kneading it over and over to ensure that all the bufotenine reacts with the calcium hydroxide.


But they don't provide any references, so I'm thinking this person just assumed that this compound exists and has effects as reported, and took the liberty of reporting this as fact Mad

I'm hoping that setting this issue to rest will be simple... which it should be if an aqueous solution of bufotenin treated with calcium hydroxide forms this material as a precipitate. I think that one of the difficulties in establishing whether this compound forms may simply come from the fact that people have been mixing the lime directly with the seeds (or extract), rather than mixing it into an aqueous solution.

And worse case scenario, if calcium bufotenate appears not to exists, then it seems like it might be worthwhile to adapt Ott's bufotenin freebase isolation to use materials available to the common extractor. The reports in his bioassays sound drastically better than what people are achieving with the common snuffing and smoking preparations these days.
 
SyZyGyPSy
#4 Posted : 4/16/2008 7:27:04 PM
Tryptophilese Metaphysticus Anomalopteris III


Posts: 139
Joined: 29-Jan-2008
Last visit: 04-Sep-2020
Location: Somewhere That Isn't Here
Thanks for the excellent post, you did a good job presenting the case material Cool

Swim remembers kinda looking into this awhile back and somehow being convinced that calcium bufotenate does in fact exist, though he can't really remember why he came to this conclusion. Seems like he read something where someone did an experiment similar to what you described, not with pure bufo freebase but they prepared a snuff that should have been bufo freebase, bioassayed it, and it sucked - mostly physical symptoms. Then they calcified it and tripped balls, no unpleasant physical effects. At least that's how swim remembers it. Seems the idea is that Ca-bufo passes the blood-brain barrier more easily that the freebase.

Still waiting for the actual "proof" though.

Swim recently read a paper showing large amounts of bufo isolated from human feces. Shitty as it may be, if we could figure out how to calcify bufo to give the desired effects, an appropriate fecal extraction TEK could completely counter the governmental repression of neurologickal freedoms, at least until they start putting cameras in our bathrooms!
The Ultimate Secret of the Universe is that there is no Ultimate Secret of the Universe... there's just a bunch of stuff that happens.
 
Entropymancer
#5 Posted : 4/17/2008 1:45:17 AM

DMT-Nexus member

Salvia divinorum expert | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorumExtraordinary knowledge | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorumModerator | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorumChemical expert | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorumSenior Member | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorum

Posts: 1367
Joined: 19-Feb-2008
Last visit: 12-Jun-2016
Location: Pacific Northwest
SyZyGyPSy wrote:
Swim recently read a paper showing large amounts of bufo isolated from human feces. Shitty as it may be, if we could figure out how to calcify bufo to give the desired effects, an appropriate fecal extraction TEK could completely counter the governmental repression of neurologickal freedoms, at least until they start putting cameras in our bathrooms!


Jenkem for the Masses! Laughing
 
ares
#6 Posted : 4/20/2008 10:19:54 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 7
Joined: 20-Apr-2008
Last visit: 17-Sep-2020
Location: DNA
Following preps found here with baking soda, SWIM snuffed .85g of cebil which produced a trip into the white light of his first aya experience (30g caapi and 12g hostilis)

Suffice to say, SWIM claims this stuff to be capable of the full range. Only downside is a far heavier body load bordering on very unpleasnt according to SWIM "feels like being hit in the face with a sledge hammer". SWIM thinks too much calcium carbonate may of been present due to reports of sharmans feeling no unpleasnt somatic symptoms.

Bufotein when in Ca form is greatly potentiated compared to freebase accoding to a source I can't recall, maybe Ott.

This stuff is well worth exploration due to ease of aquistion, prep and ingestion compared to aya i'd say.

(1st post!) :-)

 
Phytonaut
#7 Posted : 1/11/2013 3:43:11 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 34
Joined: 04-Jul-2011
Last visit: 13-Jan-2014
Location: Everywhere
Recently SWIM claimed to have made Calcium bufotenate. To me it sounded strange wether a compound like this would really come out of his TEK. He used this TEK from erowid. http://www.erowid.org/ex...iences/exp.php?ID=64707. When researchin a bit I found somewhere this comment.

Quote:
OK

5 HO-DMT Bufotenine to 5 O-DMT' or Ca+ 5 O-DMT as a compound'

Calcium hydroxide does not bond with Bufotenine'


“Swim took one gram of bufotenine with one gram of calcium hydroxide in a little water to make a paste'
This paste was left at room temp for 14 hours' It had almost dried'
Swim then took the paste and dissolved it in acetone'

The calcium hydroxide falls out of the acetone and pressipitates at the bottom'
The mole we are seeking dissolves in the acetone'
Swim evaped the acetone and got back 940mg of the new mole' don't know of where the 60mg went' maybe left in the sludge at the bottom of the flask'


Swim vapourised 20mg

It is not bufotenine or Calcium Bufotenate' there is no calcium in the final product cos it stays in the bottom of the flask insoluble in acetone'

Prickly sensation' like Bufo' much stronger though'~
After 3 minutes the room is collidoscoping'~
The peak in about ten minutes' the whole experience about two hours'
Extremely visual and euphoric'

The 5-HO-DMT (bufotenine) react with the calcium hydroxide, to form a compound Ca + 5 O-DMT (calcium bufotenate), but splits in the acetone solution leaving 5-O-DMT in solution'
So basically calcium bufotenate only exists in solution' or as of when Bufotenine is in physical contact with calcium hydroxide' as a compound'

Calcium Bufotenine/nate is only existent within the reaction'

The end product is 5 O-DMT'~

As in the snuff' the calcium does not enter the blood stream' but the 5 O-DMT does' so the compound calcium Bufotenine/Bufotinate does not exist as a tryptamine molecule' only as a compound of the tryptamine Bufotenine and calcium hydroxide' Ca+ 5 O-DMT'
The calcium hydroxide knocks out the H' from the 5 HO-DMT' leaving 5 O- DMT'~

Take the seeds' roast them' split them' grind the pip into a fine dust' mix it's own weight with the same amount of Calcium Hydroxide' and a little water into a paste' leave to stand until the acrid fishy smell has gone'
Take the paste and dissolve it in acetone'
The calcium hydroxide does not dissolve in the acetone' actually it is quite insoluble' the mole we are seeking does' 5 O-DMT'
Decant the acetone and evap it'
Of what is left is a sticky brown goo'

Vapourise 20-30mg of this' 5 O-DMT'

Calcium Bufotenine does not really exist'
only in the process of the side chain reaction that forces out the H' of the 5HO-DMT' it only exists in solution or as of when in physical contact with calcium hydroxide' as a compound'~


Still im not sure what is happening here. Anyone any idea?

Many thx!
We are infinite
 
Entropymancer
#8 Posted : 1/11/2013 4:21:13 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Salvia divinorum expert | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorumExtraordinary knowledge | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorumModerator | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorumChemical expert | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorumSenior Member | Skills: Information Location, Salvia divinorum

Posts: 1367
Joined: 19-Feb-2008
Last visit: 12-Jun-2016
Location: Pacific Northwest
I eventually came to the conclusion that the whole calcium bufotenate thing is probably a myth.

Two quotes from a related thread:

endlessness wrote:
There is no proof calcium bufotenine (or bufotenate) exists at all, so far its just speculation AFAIK and results dont seem very reproducible. It could be that its just salt forms of bufotenine or bufotenine freebase, no fancy different molecule such as calcium bufotenate.

Biggest proponent of this "different" bufotenine was 69ron ( = baron, who wrote that experience) and he was known for his controversial claims and his connection with dubious FV supplier (check the FV controversy subforum and you'll see). Personally I'd be wary believing the claims, but if you or anybody else feel like testing different conversion methods and bioassaying (ideally blind) to see if its any difference, and/or run it through analytical equipment, thats always welcome Very happy


Entropymancer wrote:
Aside from baron/69ron, there was only one other person (using the names "Adam Smythe" or "Anadenanthera"... which could just be other aliases for baron) that reported on their production an use of "calcium bufotenine". They seemed very determined that their information be taken as fact (repeatedly editing wikipedia pages to support their own claims) without providing much substantive evidence...

Don't get me wrong, using the free base of bufotenine instead of a salt probably makes a world of difference...


I believe my reasoning is sound (in the original post) describing why such a salt is chemically plausible. But being plausible doesn't make it true.
 
Phytonaut
#9 Posted : 1/11/2013 5:19:07 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 34
Joined: 04-Jul-2011
Last visit: 13-Jan-2014
Location: Everywhere
Thanks for the reply! That allready clears it all a bit.
We are infinite
 
jamie
#10 Posted : 1/11/2013 8:27:31 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Salvia divinorum expert | Skills: Plant growing, Ayahuasca brewing, Mushroom growingSenior Member | Skills: Plant growing, Ayahuasca brewing, Mushroom growing

Posts: 12340
Joined: 12-Nov-2008
Last visit: 02-Apr-2023
Location: pacific
Calcium bufotenate really is a myth IMO and there are people out there who still claim this is what you want..w/e.. Freebase bufotenine is extremely visionary as it is..

I still wonder about dehydro-bufotenine though.
Long live the unwoke.
 
Mindlusion
#11 Posted : 1/11/2013 9:10:52 PM

Chairman of the Celestial Divison

Extreme Chemical expertChemical expertSenior Member

Posts: 1393
Joined: 21-Jul-2010
Last visit: 11-Aug-2024
Location: the ancient cluster
It makes sense, most myths have some sort of root of truth.

It makes sense to form that type a salt from the deprotonated -OH group.

but experiments show when the pH is raised enough to do this it seems to destroy activity.

similar to with psilocin
Expect nothing, Receive everything.
"Experiment and extrapolation is the only means the organic chemists (humans) currrently have - in contrast to "God" (and possibly R. B. Woodward). "
He alone sees truly who sees the Absolute the same in every creature...seeing the same Absolute everywhere, he does not harm himself or others. - The Bhagavad Gita
"The most beautiful thing we can experience, is the mysterious. The source of all true art and science."
 
 
Users browsing this forum
Guest (3)

DMT-Nexus theme created by The Traveler
This page was generated in 0.087 seconds.