http://www.naturalism.org/epistemology.htm#rivals

Here is an interesting article on epistemology. I think many of you are using it to be open about any beliefs when this author clearly shows, I think, it should be used for the opposite.

To sum up the article epistemology is one reason why we should value empirical evidence and use it to further our species as opposed to faith based reasoning.

Nice of you to bring naturalism to the table. Nice link, I will read some more of those articles about New Atheists and the ethics derived fro naturalistic worldview. In my opinion naturalism is indeed a solid and also very inspiring way to go. A good alternative for any religionh indeed. Just as beautifull... but just as meaningful?

So I must add that I think naturalism, and in particular the insulation requirement, does not deal with the subjective world that is experienced. Naturalism in this way fails to give 'guidance', as the mechanism of subjectivity is not yet unravelled by science. We do not fully understand the materialistic basics of our human consciousness, the mechanisms of brainchemistry. We have only a partial picture concerning this field of research. In fact there are many blanks in this field of research. I say we still have a long way to go.

So whatever science puts forward, my worldview remains one big subjective experience, there is realy very little objective about it for me. Untill I can understand all at once, this subjectivity will remain I think, and could (does) give rise to contradiction and conflicts of all sorts. This is why I think Taosim (the philosophy) is such a beautiful answer to the questions of life. And in a way it feels very naturalistic to me actualy. I feel Taoism is better suited to deal with the subjective part of experience, in a logical-natural way.

I will try to put Taoism and naturalism (the philo-science way) next to each other.
Should be interesting : )


Tao te ching:

Always without desire we must be found,
If its deep mystery we would sound;
But if desire always within us be,
Its outer fringe is all that we shall see.

Taoism is a very naturlistic view point on the world. For that reason I don't object to it. Plus its got some really good advice contained within it. Love tao te ching.



Most people on earth are brought up believing that life only has meaning because some being gives it meaning. If you can get past then that conditioning you can find all the meaning you want in naturalism. Some people do and become atheists or agnostics. Others become more spiritually oriented even though I think many kinds of spiritualism fall into similar faith based traps as normal religion.



There is a lot going on right now to solve this question. I am willing to bet within the next 50 years it will be solved. But who knows for sure. I don't see why it matters so much though. There already is so much evidence to suggest that consciousness at least human consciousness is 100% a result of the brain and bodies functioning without any requirment for supernatural explanations.



I don't think subjective experience is possible without an objective world. I don't think there is any contradiction.

Every belief or idea is filled with contradiction and in that sense all experience is also. For you can't experience without the self, and the self is contradiction in motion

Yes it feels like a moving contradiction. Like it is only duality we experience. But opposites (contradiction) can only exist within a unity. This is logic. Really the yin yang thingy says it all. As this principle is used to understand everyday life, there is meaning. One sees it all fits in some way somehow, no matter how one feels or thinks about it. The less prejudiced one is, the more this becomes clear. And this is the most beautiful experience of all if you ask me. It is the flow of life itself. And trying to drift instead of swim (as in swimming) makes life way more easy and joyful : ) Seriously, if ones tries to swim (as in swimming), then where is one swimming to? Truth? Truth is here already, life is happening and you are already part of it. So you will end up in the sea anyway. Just follow the flow as it appears, more and more clearly.

Yea im seriously into taoism at the moment lol.

Yes Virola, our constant need to control and know gets in the way of being.

In order to have experience, it must be observed labeled and catalogued. The very moment you observe and experience something be that a thought, idea, place emotion etc etc, it is an experience of the self and all self experience carries with it a very complex set of contradictions

There is no truth, any truth that may be found is born of the self. All anyone ultimately wants is a happy life. But you can't ever find that, experience it or know it. The moment it is experienced, it is not true peace or happiness. It becomes a pleasant thought through which we strengthen the self.

To come back to the original thread question.

I think Philosophy or discovery for anyone, should be to learn more about the self. To understand the mechanics of it from every moment to the next, for we as a race can only reach our full potential when we understand the self on every level, hopefully our cultural evolution will in time open this up to everyone. In the same way our self evolved culturally to better our species, it is the understanding of this self that is the next step in our evolution, and I like to think its happening right now (but thats just me fluffing my own pillow )

^^ Understanding the self...
Interesting.

But even IF we will ever find out how the self works on every level (when we are able to build complete and conscious brains) then how can we efficiently use this knowledge? I mean, you roughly know what you should do (good) and dont do (bad) in life, but are you actually living this way all the time?
Probably not.

What do you suggest doing about this?
Seriously..

Should philosophy really be aiming at anything? In a way once we choose something to aim for the journey becomes a means to THAT end...in a way it becomes tainted and sort of dogmatic..

Philosophy should just remain open, and willing to explore all avenues of everything and maybe even not bother comming to too many conclusions..

That sounds sort of strange even to me reading over it, but..so it goes..

I see where your going with that and I do whole heartedly agree, attainment of any form, be it thought or physical brings about suffering.... But we are much more productive when boundaries are put in place

"When forced to work within a strict framework the imagination is taxed to its utmost - and will produce its richest ideas. Given total freedom the work is likely to sprawl."

T.S. Eliot

I like that quote, and it makes sense too.

I think its important to have a focus, and I know that seems contradictory to what I have said. But we can do both, you can have a focus and a goal but be completley aware of your self at the same time. We can't get rid of the self, its very important for our continued growth as a species, but the fundamental problem is that we get lost in it.... And in that lost state we dont function on a rational level... Its conditioned and plagued by its memories and constant desires.

Thats kind of it Virola, its not about knowing the self so we can change it... its just about having enough understanding to recognise it within you. The moment you see your self for what it is, its gone and the usual reactions and responses that arise from it are gone also... Only then can we be fully productive.

So I see it as the most important area of study for us, our ego's get in the way of everything.

yes this my biggest struggle..I feel the happiest when I reguard no boundries..yet its focus that also brings the things I really desire into my life...quite the paradox...

And the only way around that is to learn about the self by watching your reactions and emotions. When you walk in to a store and chat with the clerk, or the dentist... Anyone really, through our interaction with people is the best place to start, thats where the old roles and different complexities of the ego start to come into play. watching for the Me, My, Mine, Them, we etc. Conversations with those words are usually a dead give away and a good chance to spot the self in action

Then theres the times when you are doing something you enjoy, watching for those reward signals and how that makes you feel.... what sort of conclusion do you put to that activity? e.g. that it makes you happy or sad. That activity then becomes a positive part of the self, but at some time or another you may not be able to do that activity, through old age or work or whatever, then there will be pain and unhappiness due to the attachement you have for that activity. Its incrredible how deep it goes and how effective the self is at aquiring these things. And how sneaky it is... I fall into it throughout my day.

One thing is for sure tho. When Im aware of my self whilst doing something, Im much more productive and open to the task at hand. No petty arguments about who's doing the dishes, or bills or this or that etc etc Just positive productive action towards life. Thats peace, thats happiness.

I dont like "if"'s. Personally I think that development spiritually is about being true to yourself and nothing is absolute. Philosophy is about finding meaning and purpose for "YOU". trying to classify beliefs and systemize values only results in miss-understanding and confusion as to what is right and what is wrong. follow no-one, never imitate and stay true to yourself.

Philosophy could aim at inspiring people to act ethically and to broaden our understanding by providing tools for higher levels of abstraction like mathematics.
You could say that mathematics is a very distilled form of philosophy.

Logic in the broadest sense is also a branch of philosophy as well as of mathematics.

Correct me if I have misunderstood:

Dogma can be a problem when one focuses. The self (ego) will get in the way by causing contradictions hence suffering. But still there has to be focus (strict framework) otherwise the work is likely to sprawl. The way around this is by means of self awareness, learning and noticing the mechanics by which the self comes into action and becomes dogmatic. When one becomes aware of the self in action, then it will dissolve, and things will become clear. This self awareness should therefore be a focus of philosophy. Right?

Hmmm. The perspective used will define context, and therefore will define your judgments. Which can lead to war...
So what perspective should be used to spot the self? Self awarness in what context?

Im with ya
So what axioms should we use in philosophy?

Of course classifying and systemizing can lead to dogma, like others have said also.
But we are looking for a way around misunderstanding and confusion. We are looking for logical common denomiantors. Things we can all agree on ; )

Why should we ignore the work of others?
We can learn from the 'mistakes' that brought us here.
They cut the path for us...

^^No one has held in his hand all the answers so you can never commit yourself to any specific belief system (i.e just not believing in anything*). This is why it is also healthier to listen to your intuitive insights; because only through ourselves can we discover our place within the whole,, as we've come to understand our perspectives/lives as a lot less seemingly important. But it is also the exact reason we have to remain open to any and every idea, so that in the context of our lives, intuition may flourish. (i.e. If we contain ourselves to the "strict limitations" of preferably all reasonable efforts of describing our existence, in essence, we will expand on those ideas with our flourishing creativity....and on while im her, i think as we continue to learn more of our brain's structure we will automatically be able to appropriate ideas to that framework of our understanding on that topic, in other words use realistic discovries as metaphors for investigating the self)