Going through all these salvia posts here on the forum, it becomes clear to me that most writers consider the salvia spirit shy. A view based on what? I get the impression that if someone says so it becomes ‘true’ and others feel ‘obliged’ to confirm this. But I could be wrong. As far as I remember I have not read a post yet in which the dmt spirit is depicted as such. Obviously a salvia characteristic.

Although in the salvia experience the ‘spirit’ manifests itself different than in the dmt experience, there is a spirit present in both. Hard to explain how I notice the difference but in my opinion not due to shyness. The salvia spirit seems to be more understanding.

I would like to hear from others why and how they experience the spirit as shy. Or not shy at all .

Thanks for reading.

It took me some time and a lot of chewing Salvia leaves before she opened the doors.. Also the spirits in my sense are not so in your face as when you use dmt.. they are more like hiding behind the curtains.. and whisper..

She also have a very gentle and calm energy in my sense.. Dont get me wrong she can be very powerful.. but powerful in a gentle way.. Smoking is another matter but that route I dont use.. It feels wrong with her..

And also with DMT.. there we monkeys have mixtured with the things and taken a part the toys to choose one molecule.. And with that molecule blast through the front door no matter if the spirits wants or not.... haha.. Monkey style!

When you work with Ayahuasca the shyness can be present as well.. and a lot of work often needs to be done before you go anywhere.. but when you have a gentle, respectable and humble approach with very strong medicine you can have experiences beyond anything imaginable.. Beyond all smoked DMT in the world..

Maybe I'm just too insensitive or left-brained or something, but I've never really felt the spirit of any molecule, plant, fungus, etc.

I'm open to the idea of it and tried, but it just hasn't worked out that way for me. So I give the tools proper respect and hold them sacred, but have kind of given up on hoping to meet the spirits of the medicines myself. I'm very happy for others that do get to have that experience, though :-)

Of course, repeated use of any substance brings familiarity, but because Salvia specifically is just so different, repeated use is needed to understand what is happening while in salvia space.

Once familiar, one can more expertly work with the tools that salvinorin offers more. I think chewing the leaves or working with low doses of smoked/vaped leaf allows for learning this space much quicker and easier than smoking large doses of extracts.

IMO, salvinorin is like a key (or hack) that lets one experience themselves from a deeper level and different perspective than our everyday perspective. It's like putting on glasses to see better, but these glasses are for your awareness/perspective/mind rather than for your eyes. There are specific and practical abilities that are gained while it is in your system, and they are repeatable from trip to trip, and generally from person to person.

The "shy deer" reference comes from Mazatec lore. Traditional use was not with smoked extracts. What I recommend to those unfamiliar with the SD head space, is to initially use smoked extract. Once, so initiated, the less extreme quid or tincture ROA seems more effective. The gentler, yet obvious consort with SD is better appreciated after being introduced via smoked extract. Many, myself included, find the traditional ROA more ergonomic, practical and pragmatic henceforth. Smoked extract is really too discombobulating for an ongoing relationship with, the Shepherdess. Quid and tincture are definitively the "shy deer" analogy. Smoked extract...not so much!

Peace

Three responses give three completely different views on the matter. Thank you. I appreciate this.

Good to hear these perspectives.

Other salvia users? Input is more than welcome .

The "reverse tolerance" effect often mentioned re SD is likely more of a psychologic familiarization as opposed to a true physiologic/pharmacologic response. Excluding SD "hard heads", most individuals will experience the intense, bizarre psycho-somatic response to smoked extracts(enhanced leaf).

Using less "severe" ROAs ie, smoked plain leaf, quids or tincture, the effects are shallow, yet profound once habituated to the SD head space. A trance can be induced during which it is quite possible to volitionally return to consensus reality if disturbed or chosen. To me at least, this describes the "shy deer" metaphor, not so much an "entity" or "spirit".

The effects so engendered with gentler ROAs are somewhat subtle and typically easier to appreciate in a dim, quiet setting. It is this head space that is rather ergonomic and can be incorporated into an ongoing consort with, Ska Maria Pastora. Again, using the reference metaphorically, for me at least.

As a side note, in our non-traditional, Western paradigm, we recognize the psychic effects from hallucinogens is the result of particular, well described molecules interacting with CNS receptors in specific neural pathways. This allowed, we are no closer to explaining the "why" of these deeply mysterious consciousness modifiers than were our more "indigenous" brethren who described the effects as arising from concourse with particular "spirits"!

Peace

What is a spirit?
How does a plant form a spirit?
Is it one spirit or does each individual plant have a unique spirit?
Why are assumptions of spirits defended as truths?

Smoked for me salvia is anything but shy. It violently pulls, or rips, me from reality. While in salvia land everything is chaotic and meaningless. If I mix it in with weed, it always announces itself loudly. I could call the weed shy. Like it's hiding in the corner until the horrible scary salvia monster calms down.

Maybe I'm more messed up then others. Salvia is like a scary movie or bad accident. I don't want to see more but I can't stop looking no matter what and I always come back.

Quidding is less noticable but I still can't say shy. Maybe slow? Or subtle as 'Legarto Rey' said. Easier to handle but not shy....

Thanks for this post 'strtman', very informative.

I only have had sucess with smoked salvia extract...

I find . [with strong extracts] ...and stronger doses...sally can totaly disasemble your intire being.. molecule by molecule... and and scatter all that is you..into a giant inner universe...and saw your existance into many peices and in effect temporarily turn one into a helpless infant...

On the other hand.. respecting its power..[and using common sense] .. controled low doses of smoked extract can be very medatative rewarding and enjoyable...

On a low dose of smoked 40x..once i enjoyed a nice meditative state...and observed a giant wheel of life...

I observed this wheel ..[like a wagon wheel].. suspended in a never ending galaxy of life...

This wheel was slowly turning.. as its spokes were made of human beings..all with hands linked and touching the wheels inner rim of this celestrial wheel..

The beings feet... all linked..touching the inner hub of this wheel...

It was so beautyfull i miss the experiance...

All this on a very micro dose of smoked extract..and some mental effort...




I also like the way salvia can open doors of the past..even into childhood...
as one experiance on smoked extract...i was sudenly under a beautyfull blue sun filled sky..and saw these identicle white linens hanging on a cloths line gently fluttering in the breese..

I could even feel the breese and the suns warmth.. as i stared at the white linins on the line ..it was the most beautyfull sight ive ever seen! ..i was seeing through the eyes of a child again with sallys help..


In Another experiance on smoked sally extract.. i became a salvia plant.. in a green field surounded my hundreds of other plsnts far away under some mountain in south america..

I could also feel the breese and sun overhead!

With self respect and respect for the plant it can be rewarding.....you dont have to scatter your brain molecules across the universe ..to access these beautyfull places of long ago..

SDally can be rewarding with common sense and dose control..

Excellent topic strtman and Eaglepath I find your observations about Salvia DMT and Ayahuasca spot on. There is a quote I often say to myself which I discovered in the Book of Changes: "One cannot storm the gates of heaven"

One's approach becomes extremely important when one delves with these powerful substances, respect, humility and an open mind are essential to explore these realms. I find many taking the party approach, without doing the inner work but then again any powerful trip can be life changing, even if you stumble upon it..

I find the times I had used Salvia, the slightest noise, for example once I my alarm clock went off as the experience was unfolding and I lost it. I also only use the quid method with Salvia, smoking is not the way I ingest psychedlics for health reasons mostly but also because its extremely rocketblast like. I find the quid method however very elusive, hard to pin down and transient and yet it is like you have entered a green fairy glade, rich with mystery and delight for those willing to be patient. And yes 20 minutes of quidding takes patience as you meditate in your room, prepared with white sage and palo santo scents upon a meaningful altar. But that's just the start. Salvia is definitely "shyer" than psylocybin or mescaline but with all one's approach and not just as you prepare to quid, drink or ingest, in one's room or in a forest, but consistently in one's life.