Still see a lot of confusion on this topic to this present day, will present an overview of the major difference:

Metta_morpheus said (concerning a rue seed based journey):
The nodding off like sedation is from the rue seeds, give caapi a dream, real traditional Ayahuasca consist of Caapi + psychotria or chaliponga. The high levels of thh in caapi are stimulating like coffee. Rue contains less than 1% thh. However, thh is the 2nd highest alkaloid in caapi. This stimulated entheogenic state interacts with the minor sedating harmaline in the caapi, resulting in an otherworldy wide awake trance or dream-like state (stimulation + the sedation). This yin and yang is often found in the plant world.

Differences between caapi and rue: http://www.ayahuasca.com...are-ayahuasca-analogues/
hxxp://www.ayahuasca.com/amazon/botany-ecology/what-are-ayahuasca-analogues/

Thh or tetrahydroharmine causes serotonin reuptake inhibition. Serotonin reuptake inhbition is also caused by traditional cactus, shrooms, ibogaine, Amazonian snuff's (which work for 3 hours) and the semi-synthetic discovered acid or Hofmann's potion.

"Serotonin reuptake inhibition is stimulating" (Ref 5), and also allows the day to day survival filters in the brain (the 5-ht1a receptors which make up more than 80% of brain 5-ht) to be shut down so that the mind can really expand beyond the filtered boundaries and doors which allow us to survive in everyday life...to achieve a new level of higher consiousness.

Have dreamed of caapi + hawaiian psychotria over 60 times over the years, it is phenomenal divine "mysterious tea" as the UDV calls it.

Further below in the chart from the PLO study, we see that 5-meo-dmt is the world's strongest 5-ht1a receptor agonist, or SRI with a reading of 4.00max, which means it is off the charts strong when it comes to serotonin reuptake blockage.

It is often found in combination with dmt in Amazonian snuff's as dmt on it's own lacks this SRI (serotnin reuptake inhibiton) quality. But when combined with either 5-meo-dmt or bufotenin (another strong SRI) you get the full monty or combination of DMT's extremely strong agonism at the rest of the brain's other 20% of 5-ht receptors, with 5-meo-dmt or bufotenin from the snuff's blocking the rest of the brain's 80% of brain 5-ht at 5-ht1a.

"DMT" cannot do it all...in order to be as potent as it is at 20% of brain 5-ht, it must give up the agonism of 5-ht1a which requires another molecule such as 5-meo-dmt, bufotenin, thh, or other SRI acting molecules in combination with it, ie "teamwork".

James Oroc, "The New Psychedelic Revolution", 2018 said

LSD scientist & founder of Heffter Institute Dr. Nichols:

Dr. Nichols

Thomas S. Ray, Psychedelics and the Human Receptorome (2010):
https://journals.plos.or...371/journal.pone.0009019
hxxp://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0009019
Breadth of Receptor Binding, 4.00=max, 0.00=min

Ibogaine binds directly to the serotonin transporter (SERT), so it does not have to target the 5-ht1a substrate pathway. This could be likely what happens with tetrahydroharmine, as THH and ibogaine have similar basic beta-carboline structures.

Thomas S. Ray's study shows a value of 3.57 at SERT for Ibogaine (4.00 is max). Ibogaine has been shown to inhibit serotonin transporter (SERT) noncompetitively, in contrast to all other known inhibitors, which are competitive with substrate.

Thomas S. Ray Receptorome study, 4.00=max, 0.00=min.

Ibogaine (inhibits both serotonin and dopamine reuptake transporters, it is an SDRI or serotonin & dopamine reuptake inhibitor)

Tetrahydroharmine (serotonin reuptake inhibitor, it is an SRI)

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Additional 1988 study which backs up the 2011 Thomas S. Ray receptorome study:

Pharmacology of 5-hydroxytryptamine-1A receptors which inhibit cAMP production in hippocampal and cortical neurons in primary culture. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2828913

N-Methyltryptamine (NMT) found in barks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-Methyltryptamine

---

As we go thru day to day life, the brain serotonin filters (or gates) are in place so that we will not be overwhelmed by the perception of the way things would appear to an un-filtered mind, or "Mind at Large" as Aldous Huxley describes it in "Doors of Perception" as "infinite or eternal". (Ref 5) He also referred to the visions as coming from "the other world" in his book "Moksha". I prefer to think of it in similar terms as well "the spirit world" or "the other world". 5-ht1a inhibition while the psychedelic molecule works in the place of serotonin at the other 20% of brain 5-ht theoretically causes this filter system to be lifted, and the infinite mind to manifest in combination with psychotria for example.

References:

(1) Ray, Thomas S. "Psychedelics and the Human Receptorome", Feb 2 2010, PLOS one research article.

(2) Naranjo, Claudio. "Psychotropic Properties of the Harmala Alkaloids", Ethnopharmacologic search for psychoactive drugs, Jan 28-30, 1967.

(3) Nichols, Charles D. "Serotonin Receptor Signaling and Hallucinogenic Drug Action", The Heffter Review of Psychedelic Research, Volume 2, 2001.

(4) Dumuis, Sebben, Bocaert. "Pharmacology of 5-hydroxytryptamine-1A receptors which inhibit cAMP production in hippocampal and cortical neurons in primary culture", Molecular Pharmacology, Feb 1988; 33(2):178-86.

(5) Goodman Ph.D, Neil. "The Serotonergic System and Mysticism", 2002.

(6) Bulling, Schicker, Zhang, Steinkellner, Stockner, Gruber, Boehm, Freissmuth, Rudnick, Sitte, Sandtner, "The Mechanistic Basis for Noncompetitive Ibogaine Inhibition of Serotonin and Dopamine Transporters", J Biol Chem. 2012 May 25; 287(22): 18524-18534.

(7) Nichols Ph.D, David. "LSD and it's Lysergamide Cousins", The Heffter Review of Psychedelic Research. 2001;2:80-87.

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This quote from Trips might help provide some clarity:

Quote from TIHKAL by Dr. Shulgin "More studies on tetrahydroharmine are absolutely imperative."

Trips (from this forum here on 12/2/2011):

professor8 (here at this forum, see his vitamin c experiments: 11/1/2010):

DMT + tiny amounts of 5-meo-dmt (from Oroc's book):
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://visualmelt.com/Pablo-Amaringo

I have more experience with caapi than with rue, but i can say that for some reason i am more sensitive to rue than to caapi. When i take a few grams of rue, i get nauseated, wich does not happen with caapi, and i get a sedated feeling that is simmilar to what you get on a small amount of ketamine, and a slight serotonin rush that everyone who has ever taken MDMA will be familiar with.

Caapi does not realy do that for me. If anything, it makes me feel more awake and into the moment, wich is why i prefer it over rue when i take oral DMT. It doesn't seem to alter the DMT experience that much as rue is doing, and only makes it warmer and more immersive.

I sometimes combine the two. I then add a small amount of rue to the mix, but not much. I do get some very mild rue effects without the nausea then.

This is all very subjective ofcourse. But yes, i find rue a more powerfull substance by itself. And definately different.

Thanks for your detailed dream reports with rue dragonrider as compared to how you react to caapi. Rue even though non-traditional is a spiritual entheogen as reported by many others. ShamensStamen is also a big proponent of rue based brews.

Peganum Harmala, the “Ayahuasca” of North Africa and Eurasia
https://kahpi.net/peganum-harmala-ayahuasca/

Harmine and Harmaline in rue may still show a degree of serotonin reuptake inhibition, probably less than or around the level found in mushrooms (mushrooms are a 2.88 on a scale of 4.00 max).

Even though studies show a lack of agonism at 5-ht1a receptors, they "may" have activity by attaching to the SERT or serotonin reuptake transporter instead (just like ibogaine or theorized thh) in order to blockage serotonin to some degree. Cactus, acid, Amazonian snuff's, ibogaine, caapi based Ayahuasca & shrooms are "up there" in there SRI blocking activity (approaching levels of 3.75 for the 1st five and 2.88 for the last mentioned on a max scale of 4.00). 5-meo-dmt is of course off the charts with 4.00 max.


Benny Shanon:

Looks like the difference in presence of harmaline is what you are referring at. Harmine rich experiences gives me exactly what you say, but with a significant cut out of the maoi functionality. I feel fairly fast sober once the decline sets in. The thh in caapi brews might add some but I've been falling pretty fast out of intensity on caapi compared to rue. For that matter repeated dosing on an aya session is more likely, while I've not redosed like that on rue sessions.

We do differ on the "warmer" interpretation, to me harmaline adds a warmth I've seldom found on harmine rich brews, even more I miss the harmaline addition a tad in harmine rich sessions. But with more than 100mg harmaline represented, it starts to take away the tack sharpness of the experience and things get more fuzzed. So I have an optimum of harmaline in mind and no more before it starts to become counter productive.

Just my 2cents and trying not to generalize.

Jees said:
Like Jees, I also prefer low dose harmaline, higher dose harmaline does become fuzzy. And no wonder, since low dose harmaline is found in a typical caapi dose (10 to 40mg amounts usually).

Thanks for comments Jees & dragonrider. I might add that I have a tremendous respect for harmaline, it is found in small quantities in Caapi, and I believe that when it is in combination with harmine & thh, that it really shines, there is a synergy between all 3 alkaloids, (3 herbs in combination are often way more powerful than just 1 or 2) and the thh seems to brighten the experience significantly and allow the harmaline visions to really be seen even when harmaline is found in tiny amounts. This brightening effect of the thh is rather remarkable, otherwise large amounts of harmaline "by itself" are required to see the harmaline visions.

I was saddened to learn that Dr. Naranjo died this year, he is sorely missed and wrote 19 books.

"Ayahuasca and the problems of the world" by Dr. Naranjo: https://kahpi.net/claudi...asca-and-world-problems/

"Remembering Psychedelic Research Elder, Dr. Claudio Naranjo": https://kahpi.net/claudio-naranjo/

Tregar I'm not sure if you did this already, but I'd love to read you describe separately the effects of:

1-Harmine
2- Harmaline
3- THH
4- (5, 6? ) A mix of them in any ratio you might have tried knowingly.

Thanks for question endlessness. I still don't have all the answers and the mystery will need to be solved by future psychonauts.

The Albert Most document/book on rue is one of the rare documents we have on the common dosages of harmalas needed to cause closed eye visions, which start out as colored geometrics which then progress to fully formed realistic visions. However, by adding in tetrahydroharmine to the mix (which he did not have at the time) we can then further lower the dosage he recommends to achieve the colored geometrics and fully formed visions at a fraction of the dosage. Again, tetrahydroharmine has super brightness and coloring qualities and will help greatly illuminate the hard to see harmaline visions...allowing one to use tiny amounts of harmaline instead of large amounts to see the visions. THH is also vision causing like harmaline so this helps as well.

https://erowid.org/plant...e/syrian_rue_info9.shtml

Again, a combination of 3 herbs instead of just one is way more powerful than just 1 or 2 in combination. Precautions must be taken not to ingest any other maoi's, rimas, or medicines that would interact with the harmalas. In other words, nothing else whatsoever in the system. Coffee would be ok earlier in the day, but that is it.

What I have experienced in dreams:

Many decades ago when I dreamed high dose harmaline by itself I became of course quite nauseated and dizzy, and had to crawl in order to get to the bathroom (just like Shulgin's entry on high dose harmaline in TIHKAL recounts "staggering" to the bathrrom).

However, when I laid down on the couch and closed my eyes, I saw clairvoyant scenes from the midieval period, beautiful gardens, trellices full of flowers, ships on the ocean, beautiful midieval period women. I was astounded, it was my first time with a harmaline experiment. The images were high def (extremely detailed) and in green monochrome (one color) on a black background.

Under Harmaline entry in TIHKAL you can also read of someone's journey on rue seeds (harmine + harmaline combined). With eyes closed they saw long dream like sequences like a movie being played, jungle scenes, winged creatures on merry go rounds, etc. These visions appeared more easily than just the "high dose harmaline" entried in TIHKAL, so here you can see the harmine and the harmaline in the seeds "working together" to provide beautiful visions at normal doses of rue seeds.

I believe Harmaline taps into the "Akashic Record" of the Universe beyond time and space -- in which all of history is recorded, the present, and the future. There is a 45 minute presentation on what the "Akashic Record" is in season 12 episode 10 of "Ancient Aliens" where we see a famous Indian meditation Dr. specialist enter a highly meditative state and the brain waves change remarkably on the scope. Ayahuasca also alters one's brainwaves into a deeply meditative trance dream-like state.

Dr. Naranjo recorded the brainwaves of people on harmaline: Harmaline causes a definite increase in the alpha wave and a decrease in the beta wave of the electroretinogram, both of which become apparent before any change is observed in the brain cortex. In other words, harmaline acts as a stimulant on the midbrain reticular formation. The direct action of harmaline on the brain cortex is hard to interpret and seems more that of a depressant. But this is counteracted by the arousing influence of the reticular formation.

The neurophysiological picture matches well that of traditional Ayahuasca "dreaming", in that the state involves lethargy, immobility, closed eyes and generalized withdrawal from the environment, but at the same time an alertness to mental processes, and an activation of fantasy saids DR. Naranjo.

He further went on to say that Harmaline has a retinal effect in that it caused remarkable vividness of imagery with eyes closed together with phenomena such as double contours and persistence of after images, The electroretinograms confirmed this activity.

He also said that Harmaline appears to be more hallucinogenic than mescaline both in terms of the number of images reported and their realistic quality. In fact some subjects felt that certain scenes which they saw had really happened, and they they had been as disembodied witnesses of them in a different time and place. This matches the experience of South American shamans who drink Ayahuasca for purposes of divination.

In his paper he mentioned that with closed eyes, imagery was abundant and most often vivid and bright colored, with a predominance of red-green or blue-orange contrasts. Long dream-like sequences were much more frequent for harmaline than for mescaline. Certain themes, such as felines, negroes, eyes, and flying are frequent.

THH at amounts around 300mg or greater combined with harmine cause flashes of scenery which are bright and colored (very similar to high dose harmaline in my experience except they are brighter and colored and not in monochrome like high dose harmaline alone), with waterfalls, a beautiful woman with freckles, a decorated elephant from India, Atlantis as it appeared back when it was flourishing. However, the side effects are a bit too much at that dosage, just as Ron69 mentioned long ago, that thh is best at 300mg or less only, going beyond that is not recommended. I don't even like to go beyond 200mg ever. Dizziness becomes apparent at high doses.

Large amounts of harmine in my experience and as reported by other studies are not all that much vision enducing, but when combined with harmaline and/or thh, it is a different story.

Around 200mg of thh with similar amounts of harmine and tiny amounts of harmaline lack the side effects of large amounts of thh or harmaline by itself and provide outstanding visions, as the combination of all the alkaloids in Ayahuasca working together is very powerful (3 drugs in combo are often much more powerful than one).

I won't get into all the visions that result with the normal Ayahuasca harmala combo, but they are very much like the visions reported by Dr. Benny Shanon in "Antipodes of the Mind" with long dream like sequences. Added psychotria can provide added color and brightness, thus why the Shamans say the Caapi provides the visions while the leaf provides the color and light. None of the visions repeat, they are always new from session from session and appear as if "newly made" and "pristine" in quality and extremely high def often with impossible cartoon like imagery that Disney or CGI would never be able to duplicate.

One such session I remember is flying over what looked like Los Angeles for around 2 minutes as I could see all the pools, parks and homes below. Flying to other places like a bird is very common on decent doses of Caapi. Another such vision was viewing a chalkboard full of important scientific discoveries and mathematical equations, being taken to a remote Polynesian island in the Pacific to view the wooden Tiki Artwork, also seeing brightly colored scenes of beautiful naked women dancing around rotating marble pillars, beautiful naked women in dancing scenes, different period artwork in color and outstanding resolution, mind boggling stuff.

Here is an example:
From Page 138 of "Antipodes of the Mind":

Eleven Otherworldly Visionary & Ayahuasca Artists you probably don't know:

https://kahpi.net/otherw...onary-ayahuasca-artists/

I'm still unsure as to why people put importance on closed eyed visuals/visions. Only vision i had was a precognitive vision of my dad's death 2 weeks before he died, but everything else i've gotten from using Rue and Mimosa/Acacia hasn't required visuals/visions. Like what's the point in seeing jewels, birds, people, jungle scenes, snakes, etc? Now if it were some sort of esp-like visions like that precognitive vision i had, i could understand that, but seeing random imagery no matter how clear has never really appealed to me.

It appeals to a lot of us though, as 'psychonauts' we want to explore, to see what can be seen/felt/downloaded. Just as a mix of chemicals can produce experiences that are more interesting than any of those produced by the individual substances (though this is personal preference) , so too is any psychedelic experience greater than the sum of it's parts (visuals/vision/feeling/emotions/thoughts). Some people even justify vasoconstriction and nausea as a necessary part of a journey, even in cases where it can be lessened or avoided. It all boils down to the individual and what they get from it, which is very difficult to put into words.

The beauty of it. That's the point.

In my personal view, to experience beauty is to experience one of the greatest and most divine kind of pleasures available to the organism we happen to be. And one of the safest and least harmfull to endulge in as well.

This probably the reason why the combination of rue and caapi works so well for me. I started doing it as an experiment, but it is almost standard procedure for me nowadays.

I usually let some crushed rue seeds (say, 0.1 to 0.5 grams) soak in warm water for 24 hours, and then i use the water for a caapi brew.

It realy feels like getting the best of both.

The most fruitful payback occurs when it dawns on 'me' that this all is me, and this driven by a feel for it rather than thoughts about it.
But I'm a visual hardhead in general and tbh I don't care this much and no particular envies to those who see much. Maybe it works a bit like with the blind: see less feel more? jk
The felt experience is paramount to me personally, sometimes I think the visuals are like a carte blanche wildcard try in picturing a story that fits, that could explain, what is felt, trying to fill in the dots of what could be explaining what is felt. This is a bit in reverse of the general idea that {we see things first and as a reaction then develop a fitting feeling with it}.
Once you go that route of thought 'the feeling comes first' this opens a path for demystification.

Dragonrider said:

Jees said:
Like your idea dragonrider of the combo of both. Good wisdom there Jees about what is felt, the dream is so very emotional, divine, and infinite & eternal in it's beauty.

ShamensStamen said:
Sorry for your loss ShamensStamen. That must have been very difficult. Pre-cognition and clairvoyance is a trait of caapi & the harmalas. No need to dwell on the visions. Besides, Benny Shanon of "Antipodes of the Mind" said the type of people who see some of the best visions are usually artists or people who are artistically inclined. Musicians and Poets may be different. But Shanon would say that explorers would have visions of exploring, the session would be suited to one's own personality in an uncanny & precise way. My Grandmother was an oil painter and taught me to paint, thus why I may tend to see many visions with decent caapi amounts.

Do visuals occur when smoking changa? Or do they stay away, no matter how you take DMT ?

If so, I feel sorry for you. Hopefully better times wil show up.

When I said being a visual hardhead it has more to do with having difficulties reaching big time visual stories that I read all over the internet. Illustrative is that encounters with entities stay out, I know I'm not the only one.
So yes there is surely visual affection but of a sort I cannot bring a story as a trip report. Good that you asked, I had to clear that up.

Tregar you always make such amazing posts!

As for the visions they are the heart and soul of hyperspace. The vision is not merley an image, it is a whole universe to be deciphered. Archeologist not only find old object, they find the history of humanity in the objects.

All i know is, i've gotten so much out of my Aya experimentation and visual imagery has been unnecessary and rare. Psilohuasca i can see visual imagery, but for some reason not from oral DMT or smoked DMT for that matter. Compared to the teachings, wisdom, knowledge/gnosis, insights, understandings, personal/self-exploration, altered states, and everything else this stuff is capable of, visuals are insignificant for me.

Thanks Franlover.

Illustrative in this post are typical "Ayahuasca visions" from Benny Shanon's journeys and his interviews with hundreds of others: "Contents of Visions": https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=89614

Notice the similarity of the Ayahuasca Visions to that of "high dose harmaline visions" (download attached paper) from Dr. Naranjo's study on 33 people. The high dose harmaline was 3 to 4mg per kg (that's around 300mg oral harmaline, with nauseating/dizzy-ness sides at that dosage).

What I have discovered: Ayahuasca uses the combination of harmine and tetrahydroharmine with harmaline (harmaline is found in only 10mg to 30mg dose) in a typical caapi dose to further illuminate harmaline visions even when harmaline is found in tiny amounts in caapi. THH has powerful visionary qualities on it's own and is also able to "brighten" low dose harmaline visions so that large amounts of harmaline are not needed. Also see TIHKAL for combination harmine/harmaline rue visions, it's under the harmaline section if you scroll down to rue seeds.

Also discovered that dreaming around 1/2 a caapi a few hours before dreaming a full caapi dose will produce full blown Ayahuasca visions that lasts for hours. Adding in some Hawaiian psychotria with the full dose makes a great addition, but it must be kept low as all the caapi alkaloids still active can cause one to purge if the leaf amount is too high, so only a low to moderate amount of leaf is recommended. Have only done this 1/2 a dose than full dose hours later around once to twice a year as it is very powerful & visionary.

Pablo Amaringo (Ayahuasca Artist) paintings: https://visualmelt.com/Pablo-Amaringo
hxxps://visualmelt.com/Pablo-Amaringo

11 Ayahuasca artist you probably don't know about: https://kahpi.net/otherw...onary-ayahuasca-artists/
hxxps://kahpi.net/otherworldly-visionary-ayahuasca-artists/

This sounds like an absolute statement, I find 10 g Hawaiian to be too much, and with Ecuadorian I have no need to go above 5 g, and my real-life friends who have worked with the same material second that. So it's either your hardheadedness or inferior leaf.

I never purge, but when I get nauseous, it's when I drink nauseating leaf in higher amounts. Non-nauseating leaf I can drink a lot of before I experience any discomfort.
Well-behaved vines (yellow?) don't seem to affect my likelihood of getting nausea, but red vine (B. muricata) can be nauseating too.

I don't get to see anything like the picture or the descriptions of visions you've posted. The only time I saw anything like that was in Peru, with a tea that contained 7 plants, one of which was Brugmansia.
With caapi + (chacruna or chali) I don't experience anything like that, but I don't really care for it, I'm happier with my tea than any other tea I have partaken of. For me, tea is about insight, awe, numinosity, inspiration...

Hi Jagube! Yes, like you mention one is better starting off with lower amount of psychotria in dream.