Our own hatred, is what keeps us from resolving the issue. The ideological devide is too big, and it is rooted in hate. If we do not find a way to agree on whether climate change is real, and to wich degree human activity is a factor in it, the consequences could be catastrophic for us all.
But it is this hatred for eachother that is standing in the way of this.

I don't know if it can be defeated. Love and empathy can go a long way, but people must be willing to open up. Will enough people find the courage to overcome the ideological divide?

If not, then no agreemant will be reached and we will just have to wait and see who was right.

And now, the remix:

How dare you God.
How dare you God to make us programmed for fight and eat and gather more.
You programmed us for war and hate as deep parts of ourselves, knowing we cannot shrug these sequences out of our systems. You creamed our souls with fear so we spin on our heads of confusing and contradictions. You made us minds and hearth as wildcards.

*

The moment we try desperately to create own human ethics, it boils down to concurring the ethics of nature, guess who wins. What an unfair fight for self destination. Just try to beat something that is engraved in your deepest kernal codex. And as a cherry on the cake we will call ourselves cowards and bad and wrong and awola self guild if it doesn't work out as we want.

Nydex, your analysis I will not wrong/true those here now, but my personal style is one of accepting the bad sides as normal and a given by GOD, and I relieve human of being cruel and wrong and bad because our free will is hugely over rated.
"Gathering wealth" is a given by GOD, not by guilty human who only ran the sequences engraved in their dna (so to speak).

My point is one must find piece when looking in the mirror, also as humanity. First that! I find Greta is not helping us to find that piece when humanity looks in the mirror. Bad strategy imho. Stop the human self hate, stop the self guild. Stop guilting others because they are ... human.

I feel a bit like Nick Cave here and that young girl in the text is a bit like Greta who looks as a human in the mirror of whole humanity and sees a lot of things she does not like, or hate.
https://www.nme.com/news...-body-positivity-2555813

My point: to search for a baseline where we can come to terms with ourselves instead of right/wronging ourselves. If I can't restrain blaming, I blame God first, one of the only reasons I use that word. All this to have a steady starting platform with acceptance of the whole self, if possible.
Can you understand that Hitler happened? I do, while I find it the most wrong thing there ever was. Can you see the total human in hitler? The vulnerability? The fear? Can you see god's part in it? I'm afraid Greta-people can't. Hating hitleresque people is feeding them, dear Greta. Come to terms first, stop the humanity self guild & self hate stalemate. Move on from there.

We're programmed to need an enemy, and why not making the enemy of ourselves, or parts of ourselves? As Greta says: "this is wrong." And by this she points to guilty human behaviour, but she actually is in war with the human species when this species comes by nature with all it's features, not only love and peace. She hates those undesired parts of humanity, she brings that very well, and people feel pumped by it, in their own tendencies of (part) self hate. She splits off from her own nasty-properties and projects those to "the wrong others". People like that and subscribe to it so they also can take a moral distance from their own nasty sides who are there no doubt (like wanting more, jealousy, rage,...) it's inescapable (!!!), but well tucked away out of the mirror plane. So it becomes all about the-bad-others.

There are probably more sides to the story than this.

Trying to understand eachothers point of view is indeed something that could help getting the debate beyond it's current stage.

On the other hand, the hate in some people may be so strong, that all the empathy in the world will not be enough to get them out of the trenches.

In the meantime, mother nature just keeps doing her thing.

Maybe, if 90% of the scientists are right, this will be a hard lesson for mankind. Just like WW2 was a lesson.

I had a similar conversation with someone. He said well why is there a psychedelic revolution happening right now that makes most of us care more? Why are more people than in the past seeking connection with spirit through so many other ways...why are more and more people realizing the ancient cultures had something we don't? why are more and more people starting to question the whole political system and the system in general? He finds it funny this comes at a time when we are getting to tipping point. If we are truly part of this larger living being of the planet maybe the planet is helping us do all this to save itself.....I responded NO the planet is doing all this to try and save US!

One thing is for sure things will change! maybe people will continue to wake up to this and it will be a nice peaceful resolution. Maybe some all out catastrophe will happen and some people will rise up and refuse to let it happen for any longer and then it wont be peaceful. Or maybe we end up destroying ourselves in the process but my guess no matter what happends we will destroy our selves before we destroy the entire planet for good. If that happends time will pass another life species will arise and be dominate on this planet....just as it has happened before. But something will change because that is the only way things work.

Yeah melodrama and marketing, I laughed and rolled my eyes. I'll believe her BS when I see her and all her friends toss the I-phones and move to Guyana.

Here is quite an amusing little rant about climate change protests that also brings up the subject of protesters being hypocrites.....

Not just amusing but very illustrative imho.

If there's anything hypocrite it's nature itself at large, creating joyfully and destroying it all just as happily, it was already like that loooong before us.
We the human people are code wise forged to be inescapable exponents of this 'self-killing-nature-system' and blame it to each other on a personal base (as in that youtube effectively shown: A blames B blames A).

I think it's much less personal than thought and yelled, and I think potential lies right inthere.

If we fry our own home it's because we did not like it in the caves, hunting while being hunted. We took a distance from nature-wise-living not only in the way we live but also ethically, first per 10 commandments and later by laws. We simply ARE in war with the way nature handles things. Since we are soaked by natural code, we are in war with our selves too, as well illustrated in that vid: hypocrites blaming hypocrites for being hypocrite, an emo can of worms of epic size, people feel mad in every camp.

I really feel for us, we should all feel for us imho.
Any second, you can become confronted by pain, suffering of many kinds, death, it's all just around the corner to catch you and while it does not happen, the stress is there!
Even if we make this planet a model of ethical and practical beauty, it lasts just that long before nature drapes us with a gamma burst or whatever it has in it sleeves. While this might not happen in a long time, the stress is there!

I'm far from surprised it turns people crazy so they add to the destructive cycle or make emotionally flip flops.

What to do?
my intuition is: if you ever want to pave a square zero for (temporal?) betterment: start stopping the blaming game, this goes for all sides. Instead, start loving who you hate/blame because you know we're in the all same boat of being life-stressed and it only hits us differently. This approach could mediate the emotional parallelizing stir that have taken over the issue.
Then from there try to make the best as hugging victims of nature with a tear in the eye.
I do not subscribe to the idea that blaming and mutual hating and "who's-right?" can evolve into a solution, to me it looks like a death end. Nature wouldn't mind that though.
I think that truly understanding that the "other ones" were just flipping differently can bring us closer, even without the necessity to subscribing to each others ideas. I think agreeing to each others concepts is not a prerequisite to bound on a deeper level.

I might be taking short corners, hope you point me to it.

The thing is I may have worded my arguments a bit off in this thread. It seems to me that it seems to other people I fully subscribe to Greta's public appearances and the way she expresses her discontent with what's going on.

Realistically looking at it, she's just a child that cries out to the public but presents absolutely no adequate solutions from an economic standpoint. And in a world build on an economic foundation, we need action based too on that same foundation. There are far more realistic propositions for at least slowing down the destruction we're causing. The plastic cleaning device Boyan Slat invented is just one bright example of many.

The whole aim of this post was to re-iterate for the millionth time that we as individuals are responsible for the environment we occupy and consume resources from. In that sense, each and every one of us ought to do at least something that moves us towards a greener and more environmentally sustainable future.

I really wish to stray further away from Greta as a whole and point the discussion in that latter point. Whether she's a puppet or not makes absolutely no difference, because it doesn't change the fact that her public appearances have been nothing more than just another platform for media to spew out hours of empty talk. No realistic solutions are thrown in there, just plain drama.

So let's look at it in a more individualized manner. Examine your own lifestyle and plot all the things that you can do to reduce the damage you're doing to the environment. Calculate the sacrifices, and pick at least one. No matter how small and insignificant it might seem. I've observed that the more one gets involved in those matters, the more his desire to get even more involved increases.

Let's be adults and put an end to throwing jokes around on the back of a confused child, and instead reassess our own impact on nature. Getting back on the right path is a collective effort. And yes, it's not too late.

Are you saying this entire time all we needed to do was track down Greta and convince her to toss out her phone? All those years of research and data collection, wasted!

I take an even shorter corner.If you are trying to detract from a very real problem such as pollution and climate change by saying that the people that are protesting are using plastic bottles, mobile phones etc, then you are in the wrong.It is a blatant case of of whataboutism. What is wrong with a bit of blame every now and then?



We also have self awareness and an important part of being self aware is holding your hands up and admitting that you are wrong every now and then...

No, I'm saying I know overacting and emotionally driven propaganda when I see it and unless she walked to the UN, she's also a glaring hypocrite.

I don't think there are too many sustained messages that reach the masses without being channeled through powerful people with agendas nowadays. Most messages can be 'counter spun' as propoganda (or fake news etc.) in my opinion.

Yes, she's somewhat insufferable/annoying. Despite that, not addressing the actual topic and using ad hominem arguments isn't useful. I don't think she has any solutions, or really leads by example, but apparently even Western society is divided on whether this issue is real and even if it is real, if it matters. Even if we didn't change our actions, accepting what seems to be reality would be a step in the right direction in my opinion.

I couldn't possibly agree more with what you said.

I agree with the point her message is good regardless if she is a puppet...i think the message is good we do need to take care of things better. Often it is the best idea's that get corrupted the moost. So you don't like the fact you think she is a puppet take it upon yourdelf to do better take the positive parts of the message put it into action in your own way. That's the best i can do with it anyway

I might have expressed me poorly.

An example: the team I work in is renown for a very good vibe, people come to work with pleasure. Yet we have political opposites and heated discussions and shaking heads when it comes to it, we speak our minds and allow emotions. We also make and admit mistakes no problem.
But when we work together to get a problem fixed, all of that subsides and we become one. This faculty to set apart differences, even if it's to a degree, is valuable imho and not a default sign of muffling or whataboutism. I'm only aiming at a general will to bridge.

I too may have not explained myself properly if you thought that i was referring to yourself with regard to whataboutisms.I wasn't.I am referring mainly to certain media outlets that try and take away from a message by denigating the messenger.
And, for myself, when arguing face to face with someone, things can get heated. But i usually end up not detesting the person that i have been arguing with as a lot more nuance can be carried over when interacting personally. This doesn't happen so much when everyone is arguing online about big subjects.

Also you say that you guys are a team and therefore have the desire to work a problem out. For the climate change/pollution problem some people are actively opposing it with propaganda. And part of the propaganda is that the main face of this particular protest is an annoying teenage girl. Which gets right under the skins of the cynical man babies that the propaganda is aimed at. They don't like being told what to do by teenagers ,and they hate it even more when the teenager maybe right....



What about David Attenborough? Is he over reacting and pushing propaganda ?

I think we're beyond the point where arguments even matter. Everything environmentalist is seen as a leftwing issue, and for many, if not most people, that is all they need to know.

Hitler believed that special and general relativity couldn't be true because einstein was jewish.

So some people believe that climate change cannot be true, or when it would be true, be affected by human activity, because of soy eating hipsters.

To them, david attenborough or even god himself, if he where to step right out of the sistine chapel's ceiling, would by definition have a secret, evil, globalist agenda when mentioning climate change.

That link doesn't work on my end but I've another one where he nails the underlying problem nicely imho. There's too much of silence about that item, a deep taboo.

I have changed my mind.

I think it is useless now, to wait till the sceptics have come to the realisation that they are wrong.

That is probably never gonna happen anyway.

America has been using it's economic power to prevent any kind of global action to stop climate change for over 20 years now. They will probably keep doing that for the next 20 years, and the next, etc.

The whole world is already 20 years behind where it should have been, technologically.

Thunberg may be a bit hysterical, but she is right. Our hesitation to take action will in all likelyhood cost millions of lives. Any effort to reduce those numbers, even if it is by just a small percentage, is worth it.