It amazes me how much out-dated scientific theory has ruined a whole generations ability to think logically for themselves. Logic is mathematical, and the dichotomy between that and some scientific theory runs deep.



Do I detect a hint of a superiority complex? I know of a few people who have taken both University level courses in science and philosophy and are complete dumb-asses. I was unfortunate enough to have them as teachers. The effectiveness of education is highly dependent on an individuals grasp of rational thought.

I took philosophy and anthropology at college. I took 1 bio class but no other science classes.

What's the difference between that and studying science and not any social science's or philosophy?..the thing science tends to leave out alot of the time is looking at the whole, finding the reality of the situation that lies within complex interaction..they get lost at times trying to define components.

Sure a materialist scientist is qualified to talk about atoms and molecules and chemical reactions etc..but are they qualified to speak on culture and complex social interactions etc?

I dont even know how to say what I am trying to say..I just think that things like ideas and culture/paradigms are as real at quarks and atoms, actaully I see them as building blocks of higher realities/states of complexity....harder to measure becasue they exist on a higher specrum of organization..

Im just messing around guys. But yea I do think hard science is superior to philosophy

But in a fun way not a serious way. Philosophy has its numerous values. But hard science is cooler



True but I keep saying it often to different people. At least I think I am? My memory is not so good... with things like this...I do same to friends in real life . Although others who have been in conversation usually are still in too. There is a reason I keep bringing it up. I want to hear everyone's opinions and ideas. Unfortunately that means I have to have the debate over and over again to get to the stage where I really get their ideas and where get mine. First we gotta get past all the definitions again all the old arguments before we can get into the nitty gritty.

I should just copy n paste?



Sure but you are still seeing the same thing with your eyes. A forest with trees in it. How you choose to feel about it is another story.



If the evidence that I am speaking of is skewed by biased subjective data to the point where its only an opinion then nearly all categories of evidence would fit into that same category of opinion. Not all evidence is so subjectively biased. 2+2=4. Thats always true. But thats not evidence thats how numbers work but still its an objective fact.

On earth gravity always makes things like rocks fall back to the ground. Thats an observation that is always true. Therefore we can say gravity is an aspect of the objective world that my perception has no realistic influence over. Even if I hallucinate a lamp floating off the ground I can know its not real because that can't happen. Furthermore anyone else in the room won't see that happen and a host of other observations can further confirm it. Even furthermore you can analyze the brain when things like this happen and see differences in relavent areas of the brain that suggest that its an illusion.

Radiowaves. We as humans have no way of knowing they exist. We have no way of perceiving photons at that wavelength. No organs at all that can sense them. Yet we know they exist. If they didn't radios wouldn't work. But we also know they exist for many many many more reasons. Another way in which we can learn more about the objective world without directly perceiving it.

Or is this all nonsense to you?



What about consciousness being only in the body makes it an empty lie? If that's really true and we are all here out of luck that doesn't make life empty. It means you can make life whatever you want with any meaning or goals you want. It means you are very fortunate to exist at all. The only part people don't like is that it means we probably have no what is traditionally called the 'soul'.

But anyway like I said before I don't need proof just a reasonable amount of evidence. You have only provided one line of evidence that were induced by hallucinogenic drugs.



Your analogy to a seretonin trip is not a good one for a number of reasons. One we have a lot more going on in our brain and body then seretonin. You can genetically modify animals to not produce certain neurotransmitters or receptors and they still can perceive walls. Even if they happen to walk into them more haha Anyway similar things can happen to humans with brain damage or with other mental illness. Walls are not visible to blind people either but they certainly exist. Your line of reasoning is just flawed I can't put it any milder.

Also concerning psychedelic users seeing similar phenomenon in groups it makes total sense without invoking any supernatural explanations. They are usually listening to the same music or sounds, on the same drug, in a similar setting, possibly in a similar mindset with regards to intention, highly sucseptable to over reacting to stimuli, highly suggestable. It would be surprising if people always only had totally different experiences.



Again the serotonin analogy doesn't hold up. Its not about what neurotransmitter makes reality more real or not. Its about what neurotransmitters and the structure of your brain has been selected via evolution to do. DMT is endogenous. But not typically at concentrations that make you trip. Serotonin is endogenous but not typically at concentrations that make you feel like your on MDMA. When neurotransmitters that are supposed to be present are not present or too abundant things go wrong in the brain. This is how most mental illness works. When drugs stimulate parts of the brain that are not otherwise being stimulated weird things happen. Its expected if consciousness is the result of the physical world.

In what sense is time an illusion?

"Sure but you are still seeing the same thing with your eyes. A forest with trees in it. How you choose to feel about it is another story."

Yeah I can agree with that..
I just dont see that much of a difference in how we choose to feel about it vs how a certain chemical feels about another chemical..it dictates the reaction that will take place..that requires properties..

The way that a person chooses to see the forest is like that. It dictates how they relate and interact with that forest..it is paradigm. How is that paradigm any less real than the properties that bring about a certain interaction between 2 molecules?..we are more complex so can come to more conclusions on how we should interact..the molecules always respong the same..but humans are more complex things so there are more options/paradigms/properties..but they are still as real as something like chemical properties/paradigms.

To me that makes perfect sense because it has a level of analogy that holds it together..I believe in holographics and that every level reflects all the lower levels of organization that preceed it. If you cannot find analogy in something than I would say that the theory is off.

Burnt, could you please help me with this last thing. The bird story on page 8 of this topic. Or do you just have no answer, is that why you want comment on it. I've tried to look for information concerning animal attraction to human scents or moods but can't find any. If it helps any it only worked when i felt real happy, but didn't always work when i was real happy, i tried using that as a method and it did not work. I'm almost certain it's connected with a particular mood.


If you don't believe my story, then say in the hypothetical occurrence of these events, what could science offer as an explanation. If you need more information to try to solve it, ask me a question. But if you don't have an answer atleast let me know that much.

I think animals can sometimes sense things about people. This is very obvious with pets. But also SWIM has had random strange things happen with wild animals. SWIM was followed around by a group of crows once while tripping. It was weird they literally kept following SWIM through this graveyard SWIM was tripping in. Talk about creepy.

Sometimes animals do funny things. It doesn't have to be much more then that. Although they can definitely sense fear and calmness in humans some animals anyway. Like how dogs respond to pupil size when your tripping for example. Its a sign that your excited and might be aggressive.

Yes, that was the more type of answer i was looking for. Like the famous saying "Don't show fear to the dog", though can be thought of as body language, but could be more. Do you know of any research in this area, animals sensing moods

Although its still somewhat puzzeling about the mole, but in all fairness i think they have an incredible sense of smell, perhaps mood also effects Body Odor.

Everytime, every case, when they got close enough i got anxiety and they ran off, i could attract them again, like they get 10ft away again, then come back, i get anxiety they run.

It would seem in this explanation, which i like better then assuming something ridiculous(to me anyway), that mood can instantly effect your scent to a degree. Has there been any research that you know of on this subject?

I have searched and searched and can't find anything, i get flooded with Body odor and oppisite sex attraction when i try to search for it.

Yea just browsing the web will only give you ad among ad about try this new product to get you laid more or whatever.

I do not have articles or info to help you find out more. But try looking in google scholar its got more info / raw data. Also believe it or not the cosmetic industry might have more answers too but they might not publish it all.

Thanx for your help, i'll see what i can find.