Hi, I am reading the TAO of Rue Extraction Tek and curious, how much water/vinegar is necessary? Is 'reverse osmosis' water okay? I'm not using distilled... at least not planning on it.

I got some 10% cleaning vinegar. I am looking to work on about 100g of seeds as an initial trial run. Should I go for more or is that an okay 'starter' amount? I also got some Lye and some Sodium Carbonate for the final base.

Also, I have some 'grey sea salt,' is it okay to use in the TEK?

Incidentally, I got myself some organic cotton balls for the filtration. I used to wonder what's the deal with organic cotton anyways - `It's not like I'm eating it! But after some research, I found out that cotton is one of the most heavily sprayed crops (glyphosate) and I figured the less of that the better. Also I guess if you're getting non-organic cotton, you're more than likely supporting monsanto in some way, so there's that too. How much of that is true, I'm not sure, but it makes sense to me.

I probably will have some more questions later... honestly the TEK seems a bit confusing at times, but I'm sure once I'm doing it will all make sense. If not... I'll be back!

Edit: I'm Back, I'm curious also what constitutes a pull/boil. Does this involve repeating the pull/boil on the same rue material, or using fresh rue material? I.e, should I drop all my seeds in at once, and repeat with the same seeds three times, or should I split my seeds up into three separate pull/boils? Assuming 100g of seeds is enough material to warrant spending the time on. Should I go for more?

Each pull repeats the extraction on the same material.

The TAO of rue extraction is not what I use. Too much filtering/work. I prefer a simpler approach such as Sakkadelic's.

Also, the crude material from the first basing can be used for most purposes even if not pure and some stop there. However this product may affect women's uterus I'm not sure. Super simple approach though, pull whole seeds with boiling water several times, rest combined/reduced pulls, decant, base, collect, wash with water until pH <~ 8, done.

thanks, i will check out that tek as well. i'm in the research phase currently ;-) but the clarification is definitely appreciated. Also, someone in the chat said to just not overthink it, which is what I was thinking, I'm sure once you're doing it a lot of questions will just answer themselves. But also good to have an idea of what everything entails, I only have a set amount of rue for the time being

I ended up doing the Tao (aka manske?) tek... Will prob try Sakkadelics next time. I got to the part with the first Manskeing... and... so far, not seeming to grow any crystals. It's been sitting here for a few hours, and all I have is a bit of sediment on the bottom. I used some non-iodized sea-salt, not sure if that messed things up. Was seeming to be okay up until now. Pretty sure I got the procedure correct, AFAIK. Not really sure what went wrong, if anything. Hopefully tomorrow I wake up to some nice Xtals... Any ideas of what might be going on or what I could do to 'jump start' the (hopefully plenty plentitude) of amazing harmala crystalic mania?

EDIT: Added a bit more salt to the solution... hopefully that does the trick.

So I'm really not sure what I did wrong here, seems like there is no Xtal growth. It's been almost 24 hours.

I had the solution turn all milky when basifying, thought that was a great sign. Waited for it to all settle to the bottom, sucked out as much of the brown liquid as possible and discarded that. Re-dissolved with some hot water/vinegar, filtered... then added salt solution. To no avail. Anyone have any idea what I can do with this? Syrian Rue is a little hard to come by here. Maybe I should try growing my own plants from some of the seeds But in terms of this extraction, any ideas? Would adding more vinegar help? Seems like everything re-dissolved okay. Can't really figure out where I went wrong. Maybe the sea salt has some weird minerals in it or I just didn't clean the brew well enough? Seemed to be going through the coffee filter relatively okay, even if there was still a tiny amount of sediment after multiple filter passes Maybe the pores on my coffee filters are too big? I used some 'bamboo' filters with 'micro perforations' maybe that screwed something up.

Edit: I attached a photo of what I have going on. Some sort of sediment, but not really the nice crystals I was expecting (I followed Phluxes technique for making a salt solution and adding that)

Should I just try to filter and save what I have here? Seems like there isn't really that much.

it's maybe not acidic enough, the color of the solution you show in the picture is more close to the typical color of the solution in the first basification phase. Does the solution have any glow? it should have a green glow on the edges under sunlight. how much salt did you add and what is the volume of the solution you have? adding salt to a warm solution doesn't work so well also.

you can try adding a bit more distilled vinegar and bring it to a boil and make sure all the salt dissolves then let it cool down slowly. if nothing comes out you can basify again and redo the manske step while keeping the volumes minimal and adding the right amount of salt.

good luck

If manske isn't working for you, check on the EA approach for harmala. It might be more appealing, no manske and it can be done in under 3hrs start to finish.

Hey Sakkadelic, I appreciate your input. Honestly today is not a sunny day so I can't check regarding the glow. Also I have been using "cleaning vinegar" AKA "double strength vinegar" Hopefully that's not a deal-breaker. Maybe it wasn't acidic enough, I wish that there was a bit more clear instruction on how strong to make these solutions.

I had originally 600ml of soultion after reducing and filtering, and added another 600ml of saturated salt solution to the mix. Was hoping to wake up to some nice Xtals but all I got was that chalky stuff at the bottom. When nothing happened, I added a bit more salt but still got nothing.

I will try to add more vinegar, heat it up and let it cool like you said. Maybe it was just something with the PH... At some points the TEK said to use "Hot water and vinegar" but then it would say "Use Vinegar" (to redissolve) so it was a bit of a guessing game how acidic it was meant to be.

Anyways I appreciate the input Sakkadelic, someone already suggested to try your TEK as well the TEK that _Trip_ suggests seems worth a try, if I can source some EA. Ah, the options!!

I want to try this tek again, but I have many of the same issues and have no idea what I'm doing wrong.

I have never gotten it to crystallize, only the powdery freebase you've described. And my yields have always been poor.

Sakk's is the next one I'll try.

Best of luck.

One love

It looks so amazing in the TEK pictures But then you try and do it and it's like... nope.

Although... I did just try adding in some vinegar, and upon adding it, saw some stuff precipitate out into the solution... so, I'm hoping that is a good sign and was just a problem with pH. Seems like it was pretty neutral when I tested it before, after reading Sakkadelic's comment. Currently bringing it up to a boil to redissolve everything before letting cool... and CRYSTAL MANIA!!! I'll keep you all posted.

Definitely though all the filtering is a bit much though, would love to try that EA TEK, Sakkadelics or at the very least get a proper filtering setup.

Alas, after acidifying the solution, I was able to get that 'greenish' tinge around the edges but after another day, was not producing much more 'chalky' precipitate than before, which wasn't much and for sure not a single crstal structure was to be found So I just went and basified it again, the whole thing turned super milky and you can see it start to settle right away.

Reading Sakkadelics link where he gets like ~2.5g from a scant 35g of seeds makes me wonder about this TEK And just where exactly the "mode of failure" or whatnot is occuring.

Anyways, looks like there is something in there, I will try and repeat the decanting step in a few hours. I'd like to think the seeds I got are containing something worthwhile and it's just something with my technique, same with like Voidmatrix was saying. Seems like a tricky one. Not sure if the whole distilled vinegar thing is a must?

Hey aethereon, sorry to see you having problems there. Normally this process, while time consuming, is quite simple. The TAO works but Loveall is right - Sakkedelic's tek is quite considerably more fast and effective due to less of that frustrating filtering.

I am certainly no expert here but I have done this extraction more than a few times. The Manske is one of my favourite parts due to the sheer beauty of those crystals surrounded by that weird fluorescent glow.

Some tips that might be useful:

+Start over and use sakkedelic's tek on a new batch. Keep what you've got because it may make more sense to you later what to do with it. Rue is inexpensive anyway.

+100g is a good chunk. I do about 3-4 batches of 100g at a time, processing one by one, to get a lot more source liquid to work with because settling and filtering takes time.

+Use a strong base at first to put pH of extracted liquor to > 12. No need to be too accurate here, KOH or NaOH is good. Forget about sodium carb. Ammonia is the only other base you will use if you want to go further separate Harmine and Harmaline. Sodium Carbonate is not suitable in this process and hugely messy.

+Sakkedelic's tek mainly differs in the fact that he doesn't spend time filtering the base phase (first phase) - this is smart because when that mud is basic, filtering is a bitch. Even vacuum. You only really want to filter the acid phases. The base stuff you want to dilute liquid with water, settle and decant (I siphon the liquid). Settling I allow overnight at first, it gets quicker the cleaner it all gets.

+Clean your base liquid as much as possible first - you want the precipitate here obviously but I find using a really large bottle (5litre for my amounts) the best here to dilute the brown stuff. You want it as clear as practical without going too overboard. Two dilutions of up to 5l on my 3 x 100g batch acid liquors (from boiling seeds) is a sweet spot for me. The precipitate is nicely and clearly separated. The liquid you want as close to transparent as practical.

+Right now you can filter dry the precipitate and use as "full spectrum" if you want. 300mg of this will do you 6+hours of harmala-land! (prolly a sudden but short purge in the middle somewhere - that stuff is not a friend of stomachs!)

+Dilute & Decant base liquids, Filter acid liquids. Base keep solids, acid keep liquids.

+ If you have the time, filter the base precipitates now and dry and weigh so you know roughly what you got. Then you can work with salt very accurately for Manske and not rely on Phlux's method (see below for conjecture on concentrations)

+Adding acid - once you have precipitate with as little liquid as possible (time...time...) you can acidify with vinegar (or you dried it in step above). Under 5pH is usually low enough, harmalas won't crash out under 5 but other stuffs do! As pointed out above, there is quite a color change (darker) to the liquid when in acid phase. Again use as little acidic liquid as possible - i.e. the alk concentration remains relatively high per volume. Acidified liquids should be very dark red colour.

+Now you can filter this. BEST FILTER WHEN HOT! A couple of times. There seems to always be black stuff left in the filter. Do it until it filters relatively quickly through a coffee filter.

+Phlux's Manske formula is the best one to follow in the TAO imo. Makes sure your saturated solution is really saturated though, and you heat both solutions. I do it in the microwave in bits (else overspill) to get them around ~90°C before mixing the two and leaving to cool.I filter BOTH the salt and the acidified liquids again after heating before combining.

+ Now the result of the manske depends very much on concentrations of alk contents. High concentration - the container fills choc-a-block with crystals. Low concentration and the crystals congregate in finer form at the bottom. But they are definitely crystalline.

+Now you can filter this and continue because you have got to the manske stage and past it (well, the first one anyway) - from hereon in its a matter of how clean do you want things.

+Other: the thread on VDS is well worth a read, long, but interesting and comprehensive. There is a lot of speculation about the relative concentrations of harm alas for the Manske there. But follow Sakkedelic and you should be right in the ballpark. The TAO aswell, but that first part of it is the problem area for me.

+From VDS thread and others ('me' is quote not me!) I clipped and kept:
"* For manske your solution is better to be somewhat concentrated, if the volume is too large, the crystals grow more difficult. Did 1 liter for 100 gr of seeds.
* Amount of salt: I go for 20gr per 100 ml of solution, it is high but it still delivers very long needles, and I have no pesky salt contamination. Phosphoric acid was used at pH 3."

"One of the factors in play is not only salt concentration but alkaloid concentration as well. This last is usually overlooked. "

If you not using Phlux TAO method and want to add salt directly to acidifed (hot) this may help:

"For all harmala-freebases, I use about 6ml of acetic acid 7% per gram. Then some demineralised water to make it practical."

"blue.magic: Yes I did a little experimentation and 20% salt works on crude, but crashes too fine harmalas - but 15% might also do the trick. Since 26% is maximum possible concentration, 17-18% seems sensible tradeoff as suggested (thanks). I would keep the crude harmala concentration below 15 g/L as otherwise there is too much impurity."

"In my experience, using 15% salt or more crashes everything too quickly.
The 3rd and 4th Manske works perfectly with just 7-8% salt.
Jees: I stand by this. "

+From one of my own lab notes: -- 25g/litre HarmalaHCl (10g/400ml dH2O + salt sat sol 400ml)(1g/40ml) - worked nicely - golden floaty crystal clusters "banana-slice" style

+Subsequent Manske's on same material -- no vinegar, just dH2O and the salt solution, with proper (2x at least) filtering of the dissolved HCl though. Always seems to be some more dirt no matter how you filter!

---

See some of my posts - there are pictures of various stages and you can clearly see colours. Pictures help me a lot!

Hope this helps

Merkin, I'm almost speechless... that was THE ENCYCLOPEDIA of The Finer details of the TAO for sure... I came on here to say that maybe the fact of not using distilled water was not lending itself to crystal formation. And I find THIS?!

I'm not sure what I did wrong the first time but the amount of precipitate was almost nothing. Following Sakkadelics advice got me back on track and producing some sort of yellow precipitate, which was a relief because earlier I was a bit choked at the whole complete and utter lack of results. However, I still had lots of questions, and I read through what you just wrote and that tends to address everything that was unclear. And then some. Thanks so Merkin and everyone.

The only thing I'm not sure about is what is this VDS thread? I found this but not sure if that is what you are referring to? That's gonna be a bit of a sit down and read

At this stage in the game, I'm about to perform another manske, and will take on board some of your advice, which there is a lot to absorb. Now that I've been doing it, I agree it's fairly simple procedure, but those details will get you! I will be trying Sakkadelics for the next round. I am thinking with all the fitlering there could be loss of yield, I've lost count of how many coffee filters I've used by now, and saved them from the first bit but yeah... dang.

I actually did use Sodium Carbonate as well for this stage hopefully that doesn't throw a spanner in the works too hard. I made as close to a saturated solution and used that, seems pretty basic by my pH strips but I've seen these murmurs of avoiding the stuff.

By the way, what is your take on grinding seeds, the Tao recommends but Sakkadelic I believe said harmalas are on the outside of seeds? I guess if you are reccomending Sakkadelics the answer should be obvious...

Regardless, Fun bunch of stuff. Going to get back to it, but first might just hit that print button on Merkins reply.

Yr welcome.

Yes, that is the VDS thread - honestly there's lots of work and speculation as everyone was learning (they didnt believe VDS at first because TAO etc was the Nexus way until they saw his technique involving pH reversal was actually a brilliant insight rather than the original assumptions of fixed pH), but its kinda interesting and enlightening. Especially if you want to move on to separations of your crude mix of harmine/harmaline and making THH. It would be nice if there was a good simple summary of it all, but the actual paper by the dude is pretty much that. If you understand it (its not that complex) it will teach you lots about rue and extracting harmalas.

If you going to separate harmaline/harmine using VDS protocol, buy a decent pH meter. Well worth it to work accurately. Cheap mag stirrer helps too.

I don't grind anymore, yields are fine and I hated the pain of trying to filter that brown sludge from the TAO method, Sakkedelic's tek is a brilliant modification, really. Saved me weeks! Just be sure to seriously squeeze HARD. I use an 'unbleached calico' 100% cotton cloth for filtering from the boil. Get a strong enough one because when you are squeezing properly you will eventually damage the cloth. But its pretty cheap.

I like harmalas as a separate thing from merely an RIMA to 'activate' spice. They are a substance of interest on their own too, a lot milder but very calming and allow amazing self-reflection. Just the fact that they do not agree with the digestive system too much is the only drawback but there are other ways of administration haha.

Good luck mate. Take it easy, do not rush the process. Patience will be rewarded and the beauty of those crystals will be well worth the learning.

Oh, and best not examine your kitchen or workplace and hands etc with a UV light in the darkness after doing a harmala process! Its like a hectic crime scene!

All in all, I would say I got about 2g out of 100g... not amazing, but it's something at least. For a first timer, I'll take it. Especially after earlier when NOTHING was happening. I guess putting it in the fridge does help a bit with the crystals. Also you are right: I checked out the workspace with a UV light. Doesn't look pretty Maybe that's where some of my yield went. Gonna have to clean this up a bit better

So it's been a while since I've been around... rather posted anything. Hope that all are doing well and happpy. Thought I'd come back and offer some further insights/feedback on my whole harmala extraction situation.

I ended up with something like 2.5g yield from that first extraction, after starting with 100g of rue seeds. Not an amazing yield but happy nonetheless, for personal use it's enough especially with the fright of things not working out initially. What did seem amazing though was the amazingly yellow crystals which did indeed fluoresce very strongly under blacklight. I'm assuming yellow is the 'ideal' color for harmalas?

I repeated the tek a second time recently with 150g of seeds this time. Once again, went with tao tek, even with the added work I figured give it another go. The only thing I changed this time was instead of using sea salt, I used pickling salt. I think that maybe the first time the sea salt had some extra "impurities" which may have interfered with the whole crystal formation (even though in the end, did get some crystals/needles the first time.) Just not that many.

This time, the yield seems much better, I think I ended up with around 8.5g or so. However, the crystals are much much more brown and didn't fluoresce quite as strong under the blacklight. Also, I didn't 'wash' the crystals, I hope that isn't a bad thing. And by wash, I am assuming that means rinse with cold water?

Merkin reccomended not to use Sodium Carbonate but in an effort to keep things 'food safe' for the final basing I did end up using a solution of that. It seems to work okay. I noticed before though after leaving a strong solution of sodium carbonate to sit, I had a lot of solid substance form on the bottom of my storage container, and figure if using that will only make the solution as needed. No matter how much I tried to shake/stir the solution and re-dissolve the solid mass at the bottom of the jar I wasn't able to.


Anyways, the brownness of the crystals didn't seem to be getting lessened with each A/B stage, each time I would manske and filter out the crystals would come out the same brown so instead of just further reducing my yield I just went ahead and called it a day, from the taste of the crystals it seems pretty similar to the stuff I had last time, haven't noticed any ill effects yet however I just tried a slightly larger (.2g) oral dose, will see how that goes. Can't really tell if anything is happening so far but it's only been a few minutes.

Also if a mod wants to move this thread to another section that would be okay/great

What's likely to have happened here is that the sodium carbonate has absorbed atmospheric CO2 and formed sodium bicarbonate. The bicarbonate is considerably less soluble than the carbonate and, along with the high concentration of sodium ions in the strong carbonate solution, this causes a precipitate of solid sodium bicarbonate to form.

Of course, another possibility is that if you used hard water to make the solution then calcium carbonate and/or magnesium carbonate have formed.

Glad to hear that you've been honing your technique somewhat successfully. IME, crystals from two rounds of A/B have been perfectly fine to ingest.

Looking forward to hearing more of your explorations.

Thanks a lot, I appreciate the input downwardsfromzero. I think you may be correct on the CO2 issue.

The experience wasn't 'the most intense ever' but it was definitely not weak. Kind of hard to put into words, as many of these experiences are. Just feeling quite far off from baseline. Closed eyes, very faint patterning. I read a harmala experience report where someone was saying visualizing things was extremely easy - I think on a higher level dose I would have been there myself. I know it could also be SO much more intense too, exponentially. Definitely a strong plant ally. It's good to know you don't have to keep repeating the A/B cycles, what is recommended in the Tao of Rue tek seems a bit excessive! I am doing an extra run on the used cotton balls/coffee filters to see if I can glean a little bit more harmalas.