This ended up in a post on another forum, but I wonder what you guys think?

Note: Copy and pasted. Not my thoughts

In my opinion DMT is one of the most dangerous psychoactive substances known to mankind.
Its potential for causing mental harm is greatly underestimated.

Many plants of the Datura genus can cause intense hallucinations similar to or more intense than those of DMT, but at least most of the people who are part of the modern drug culture are aware of their dangers and usually do not dare to ever ingest them. DMT on the other hand, in smoked form or as "Ayahuasca", seems to be the most recent hype in the drug scene and is generally regarded as "safe". The potential harmfull effects caused by DMT, especially on the mental health of the DMT-user, are rarely acknowledged and usually disregarded. At least, when a person uses Datura, they are generally aware that they were in a delusional state after the effects of the drug have worn off. With DMT, the user seems to stay in a psychotic state of delusion long after the effects have diminished and keeps being unable to differentiate between fantasy and reality. They fail to understand that their experiences were caused by a drug that messed with their brain chemistry and they come to the believe that the images that their minds created while under the influence were
somewhat real or even somehow significant.

One famous example of a person who became delusional for a prolonged period of time is "Terence McKenna (click)", whose writings are well known in the circle of DMT users. After smoking DMT he became permanently convinced that "elves" had been talking to him. And he kept propagating his believe that he could access "alternate dimensions" by using DMT.

If you look up the classic symptoms of psychosis (click), it should ring a bell and you may recognize that the delusions of Mr. McKenna would definitely fall under this category. Mental health institutions are full of people who claim to be able to talk to "fantasy creatures" which only they can perceive - because they are obviously not real and only exist in their imagination.
Here is a link to a text which further explains my ideas regarding the ridiculous state of insanity that seems to have afflicted various pioneers of the "modern psychedelic culture" (including Terence McKenna): Click here.

The mental damage caused by the use of DMT is demonstrated even more clearly by taking a look at South American shamanism.
Basically, shamans who believe they are able to interact with "spirits" are commonly regarded as being nothing more than drug-crazed psychopaths by western psychoanalysts, as they show the classic symptoms that are explained in the link above.
As an example, check out this link (click) to witness the havoc which DMT creates in the mind of an average victim of shamanistic DMT usage (in this case a National Geographic reporter) and how she starts losing herself in an imaginary fantasy world .

In various online communities one can likewise find dozens of postings that show the madness caused by DMT.
It took me about 2 minutes to find these examples of "confessions" written by DMT users:

"I became part of the energies which I will one day return to hopefully."
"DMT is by far my favorite drug and it has caused my beliefs to change drastically."
"...you are able to see the true meaning of things..."
"To anyeon but SWIMs self, the experience is quite meaningless, but to SWIM the experience holds millions of facts about the world that are invaluable to him."
"...from the first time i drank it i felt like ive simply become a channel for alien communication..."
"I began to realize how many spirits there were in the room above us. I began to converse with them, and I asked for their aide."
"I know the spirits are always there, some with bad and some with good intensions."
"My advice when dealing with either demons or "bad spirits" (which are not the same in my experience) is to know which battles to fight and which not to."

Notice how these people fail to realize their drug induced delusional state of mind even after the acute effects of the DMT have diminished.

This all reminds me of a song made by the rock band "TOOL" which deals with the same topic. It is called "Rosetta Stoned" and illustrates the inner dialogue of a DMT-crazed individual who is unable to handle the intense effects which the drug has on his fragile mind.
The person loses all common sense and believes himself to be "the chosen one" (a typical symptom of the so called
"messiah syndrome (click)".Here are some quotes from the lyrics:

"10 to 2 AM, X, Yogi DMT, and a box of Krispy Kremes"
"Contemplating the whole "chosen people" thingy"
"He said, "You are the Chosen One,"
"Me. The Chosen One?"
"They chose me!!!"
"And I didnt even graduate from fuckin high school."
"This is so real"
"It was so real,Like I woke up in Wonderland."
"And this wasnt all in my head."
"Such a heavy burden now to be the One"

Obviously, the lyrics describe how he/she is nothing more but a high school dropout and how he/she desperately tries to apply a "higher meaning" to his/ her life, while in reality he/she loses himself in his/her drugged out madness. Maybe this desire can serve as an explanation for the increased interest in this drug which can be observed in the present drug culture.

In conclusion, i believe that DMT has the potential to cause severe psychosis with just one single dose of the drug. The afflicted persons lose common sense to such a degree that it is impossible for them to recognize the manifestations of the harmful mental disarrangement they are striken with.

This potentially hazardous influence on the inner workings of the minds of DMT users makes it in my opinion acceptable to call DMT "one of the most dangerous psychoactive substances known to mankind".










I do find all entheogens to have potential to bring us to "Spirits" but is that bad for us to believe?
We all find these entities and these experiences to be quite "Real," and people like Terrence Mckenna spend a lot of time in this realm of knowledge.


I don't necessarily agree with this, but I do wonder what you guys think?

I mean half the reason I do DMT is because it allows you to access higher knowledge in the form of alternate realms of existence and contact with entities.

Hmmm not to sure about this.

There are alot of members here that are pretty grounded and have a good hold of there thoughts and lives.
If someone who has mental problems, then yes, DMT can be dangerous, but if you are at content with yourself then I think DMT is quite safe.
When I take mushies, it takes me days to get my mind focused again. Ive met people that have taken mushies or LSD and have never come back from one of the doors that they opened during there trip.

DMT can be very dangerous in the hands of the wrong mind, but this goes with all drugs. I look at all the drunks I see on my way home tonight and think to myself how fucked up there brains are. Thoughtless morons.

So, if you have any psycological problems then yes, DMT can do alot of harm, but not nearly as much harm as booze, cocaine or heroin.

This is an old debate and has little to do with DMT. It's one reason some atheists believe all religious people are completely nuts because they suffer from the same delusions: living their lives believing a God or Gods are guiding them.

You'll get no where with this argument.

Belief is just that, belief, and nothing more.

To call some DMT users nuts because they believe they've contacted spirits is just as bad as calling the Pope and his followers all nuts because they believe the Pope talks with God.

Whoever wrote this needs to stay far away from DMT, as he is an idiot...

This guy obviously has never subjected himself to the DMT experience, and therefore has no right to an opinion about it. I do communicate with entities while on it. I know the entities come from within. I know they are created by my mind. That is part of the inner learning, and that's what it's all about.
Some people do believe the entities are real. Good for them! I can think of a few other organized groups, much larger than the group of DMT users who also believe in spirits and entities. They believe it with a passion, despite having never of used any mind altering substances. Why is the poster not attacking them? Aren't they all by definition psychotic as well?

Edit: 69ron beat me to my point!

I don't agree with any of that, to me this shows that the person is a product of the Western mindset. ie: Believing that shamans and other people from cultures that use these substances are delusional and talking to spirits that are just their own fantasies and delusions. I think that it is just the opposite, I think that people in our societies that are considered 'crazy' or to have mental illness are just tapping into that realm all the time with no way to turn it off by themselves. The 'crazy people' are our shamans.

To me this is ridiculous to reduce spirituality to a drug induced delusion. Especially damning evidence is in that these compounds exist in nature as well as in us humans, also a part of nature. Smoking is indeed a foreign way to ingest this chemical from traditional use but I think that this is more of an indication of our own modern ways that anything else.

What are your beliefs on why the drug works the way it does?

Is it here to show us higher realms of knowledge with "helpers" to guide our journeys? Is it here to help aid us in the death transition?

Are the entities created by the mind, or actual places our consciousness goes to?

There's so many things that can never be TRULY answered.

Is there any information about the author's upbringing or possible experiences with entheogens?

DMT and Ayahuasca are tools; the more you understand how to work with them (integration is a HUGE part of the work), the more there is to be gained.

I've seen pictures online of chainsaws manufactured with warning labels, "Do not attempt to stop with hands or genitals." How do you choose to work with your tools?

Even entities encountered in visions, IMHO, are symbols, switches, interfaces, of the Universal Mind, and exist to be understood/integrated/worked with. So, if elves are the best metaphor you have for an expanded understanding of sense of relation to your world, then let there be elves.

At some level, you, me, elves, Ayahuasca, and all the unbelievers, are all made from the same stardust, and share the same spirit anyway.

Even if you are a hardcore materialist and renounce ideas of spirit, there is poetry in physics.

Or maybe these are just my delusional experiences.

The proof is in the pudding. I would cite long-term members of Ayahuasca churches as a prime example: their mental/cognitive health, manner of abandoning damaging habits, and ability to integrate into society and manage stress, either matches or surpasses non-drinkers.

And look at the lovely community here. <3

(Analogy alert! ) There is one particular author lots of people cite in health circles for the way he derides fruitarianism. He tried fruitarianism himself and had a very bad experience, forced the lifestyle with his mind instead of listening to his inner body wisdom. Perhaps he didn't have the support or access to knowledge when he was struggling? Or the compassion to honor himself as he was? I know several long-term fruitarians living from the heart and they are in awesome health--but they are also rooted in rich, environmentally active communities, with plenty of support and resources. Anyway, I'm jusing using the analogy of paths as tools. What is the understanding and intention of the person using the tool? Does the person have an interactive and supportive community rich with wisdom in working with the tool? Is there a presence of fear?

Whoever wrote that is the type of person I avoid like the plague, no imagination, no sense of wonder, not willing to accept that there is a spirit world even if its been experienced to be belived.

everything is a substance,
you need protein so that your eyelid muscles can move open and experience the world, you need moisture in your system so your tongue can experience taste, you need a spaceship in order to experience outer space... you need a physical body to even exist and experience anything at all. so the argument that anything experienced while using a substance is false is the biggest load of bullshit ive ever heard

using dmt as a tool just like the above tools in order to open your third eye and experience the mystical and possibly alternate dimensions.

all im saying is that what you see on dmt amounts to electrical signals in the brain..... so if the writer thinks the dmt world is a false fantasy , so is his boring and probably very unmeaningfull life because thats all it is ... electrical signals in the brain.... i pity that dude

This is exactly why im here, but these questions have been asked plenty times. And they are still questions that need answering, but I doubt that anyone has any hard evidence to answer them.

I think I probably type faster.

This post just reminded me of how certain religious groups are notorious for labeling others as nuts or demon worshipers because they don't believe in their God or Gods. I think the original post is probably from a religious nut who is trying not to sound like he or she is such. It's crafted like something you'd hear in church from a religious fanatic or religious extremist, whatever you want to call these people.

That kind of thinking is very dangerous to everyone, not just people who use DMT for spirituality. It's dangerous for all people who practice alternative religious beliefs.

I'd like to remind people that Jesus, during his time, was persecuted and killed because his belief system didn't match that of the all powerful church of that era. What sickens me is that some people claim to be followers of Jesus and then they too do to others exactly what was done to Jesus! Hypocrites and idiots! That's what made me stop attending church and made me an atheist for many years. I couldn't stand people calling themselves good Christians and then going around and insulting other religions. Saying they were devil worshipers and the like. Now we have some Muslims doing this same bullshit. Shame on all of you who partake in this kind of evil.

It would be nice if people would follow their religious beliefs without causing harm to others.

Interesting opinion and im sure it is shared by many people, also arguments such as theirs are why dmt is unlikely to become legal anytime soon. But it has many flaws, i think the majority of dmt users beleive the visions come from within themselves, but its perfectly understandable with any drug this strong for people to beleive there is something deeper. Personally im undecided, but i dont think it is too important how people interperet it, aslong as people are smart, and aim to learn from the experiences.
In terms of danger i think dmt is way bellow most common drugs, there is no harm in a drug that causes people to question their beleifs. I beleive any strong messages received are things we already know but which may not surface in everyday life

Haha, 69ron, I went through the exact same thing... in Catholic high school. Tough-as-nails-14-yr-old-raging ATHEIST.

Rayoflight, definitely agreed about the imagination...

I hope the author finds something that makes him happy.

I think the original poster is picking the wrong debate. He likes to target the 'believes' of DMT users while there is no consensus about that at all in our community. He's like a cat looking at the tip of your finger instead of where the finger points at.

For example, just picking random lines of DMT users without stating the whole story behind it is a way of tricking people and sounds more like propaganda. I see this as a way to provoke communities like ours and will therefor stop this one as soon as it hits walls.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

This is just really sad and pathetic - i pity the person who wrote this.
i was watching a documentary on the hive and what happened to strike and it reminded me that these strange breeds of ppl exist - like this one old ballie in the vid - steriotypical to the max, was almost hard to beleive its true.
also reminds me of that scene in fear and loathing a bit - with the licking of lsd from a sleeve and a person who would never understand.

if everyone thought for themselves - there would be no need for religeon.

hehe nice one, I miss the SA slang.

mE smoK thEm DMT al the tIm......aNd me aM all goOd.




WS

That post reminds me of a rehashed version of the hysterical alarmist banter that produced "Reefer Madness" and also caused psychedelic use and study to be banned. It plays on the ignorance of the general public to cause unjustified alarm and reaction. This kind of alarmist ranting has caused the scientific study and true understanding of psychoactive substances and their proper place in human learning and experience to be put back at least a half a century. The person that wrote that near hysterical load of crap is more dangerous to the advance of humanity than any drug ever will be.

I don't think it's DMT's fault, but I agree about the magical thinking a lot of psychedelic users get into. I don't think it's actually a problem, though, it's the same as religion. Except druggies won't organize and kill people like religious folks.