Hello Nexus,

I know this is a bit of a controversial topic so I'd like to preface by saying if you are dealing with a mental illness and are considering psychedelics please seek professional help first. If that is possibility for you. If you do decide to try them do so in a safe and supportive environment. Psychedelics can make mental illness way worse if you aren't careful and even if you are careful.

MAPs is doing amazing work in this arena. Ketamine, a dissociative psychedelic was recently approved by FDA for depression. Psychedelics in both modern and ancient history have had various roles in treating mental illness. Its like there is a renaissance happening with psychedelics. What to make of it?

Edit: I only half finished my though there.

I guess I have a lot of experience with both these things. Without getting into personal details I don't think I would have lived nearly as "functional" life up to this point without psychedelics. But I wonder if some of the current models being put forth would work for enough people. I'm not sure what its like to use psychedelics in a more clinical setting. I can imagine it would work for people who are naive to the substances.

I certainly see the need for clinical trials and research in controlled settings. I also see that there are potential dangers will just unleashing these substances on society. I also in hindsight realize a lot of self experimenting I did on myself was rather dangerous. Although it all worked out in the end, I narrowly avoided disaster on multiple occasions and I can imagine others without proper guidance people getting into disastrous situations. I've actually seen that first hand.

I would like to see psychedelics not being treated as a last resort after an individual has exhausted all other options. Or them only being available in end of life type situations. It can take a while for someone to exhaust all other treatment and experience a great deal of suffering in the mean time. The option should be there from the beginning. It should be a choice that is respected.

A lot of mental health professionals won't even treat people if they actively use drugs. Even if those drugs are beneficial to the individuals condition. This leads people to lie and not be open about whats really going on with them. At the same time people who are actively using drugs like psychedelics but who could still benefit from conventional mental health treatment might avoid it because of stigma.

I also think there are too many exclusion criteria to get better data in clinical trials in broader populations. A lot of people who use psychedelics also use other substances and this is often an exclusion criteria.

Are follow up times long enough? In my personal experience psychedelics would reduce symptoms for a few days, weeks, or months depending on what was going on. But I could have benefited a lot from professional help in those in between times to extend out those benefits. But its not an easy thing to talk about in the mental health community despite all the positive press coming out.

Anyway sort of rambling here just a topic I've been thinking about lately. Would be curious to hear others thoughts / experiences.

Hey, burnt. You make a lot of good points. You're definitely right, these drugs should be considered as a higher option than the last resort, you're also right in saying it could possibly be disastrous to unleash these drugs to the public. The public is often ignorant and there should be zero ignorance towards these drugs. In an ideal world, one would get diagnosed before touching these chemicals, and one would be aware of their negative and positive effects.

I think psychedelic could cure certain mental illnesses but it depends on which ones we're talking about. They completely wiped out my depression and overall melancholiness. They lowered my anxiety and phobias as well, but I don't think they're a cure for all. If I didn't try to heal on them, they might have had zero effect on my mental wellbeing, but I was so bent on getting over my troubles. Part of it was the drug, part of it was me striving to heal and making an effort to.

A lot of people don't have much trust in doctors or even science for that matter. This leads them to self-healing. I trust doctors, although I rarely go. I went down the road of self-healing because I've seen what ssri's, benzodiazepines, and such did to my brother. They made him a zombie, he became unhealthy, and it took him years to find a medicine that didn't blunt him to oblivion, and weaning off those drugs is rather difficult.

The good news is that the public is slowly catching up. Each time a generation is replaced the viewpoints seem to become more and more open. Eventually, these drugs will be allowed to be used in clinical settings and eventually doctors will have no biases towards them. I'm not sure how long this will all take, but I'm all for the general public to use these drugs as I have used them.

It appears to me, the best method of healing is psychoactive therapy, when you're open and feeling good from the drug, it's way easier to be honest and to talk about things with a professional. Even hanging out with your friends on these substances can be highly therapeutic, if done correctly.

Do you think MAPs is doing a good enough job with their trials? They seem to be the frontier, so, I would hope their trials are up to standard. If their trials aren't up to standard, what more should they be doing?

Just an added note, to me, dissociatives are way easier to handle than psychedelics. I've done DCK when it was around and each trip was a beautiful dream. On the other hand, I've had some rather difficult experiences with psychedelics that left me a bit worse off than before, but once I stabilized I felt better than ever.

Who knows what the future holds? Hopefully, it's all a positive change.

Agree I wouldn't call them cures. It helps when you want to get something out of them. You also have to follow up with whatever is you learned for it to be useful in long term. I think it does depend on the condition and the individual. Psychosis type conditions seems to be made worse by psychedelics. Bipolar disorders seem to be a bit mixed. I'm not sure about personality disorders. Additive, depressive, and anxiety disorders seem to be the areas where they are finding the most use.

I think MAPs is doing a great job. But I can understand criticism of rigor. A recent article in the Guardian had comments from a researcher who discussed this:

https://www.theguardian....d-depression-and-anxiety

They certainly are correct that most of the people doing this sort of research are enthusiastic about the field. But those biases are well known in other clinical research as well.

I definitely think there are some over-zealuous claims being made about the medical properties of cannabis. Cannabis is definitely useful for certain conditions no doubt about it at this point. But it doesn't cure everything. Equating it with "wellness" seems to be more about marketing then anything serious. It should still be legal. I think its great its becoming more legal. I love weed but it has some unwanted side effects and can be addictive for sure. Pretending it doesn't just isn't honest.

Dissociative can be easier in general. A lot of good research going on there too.


Regardless I think psychedelics should be decriminalized or straight up legal. I'm just trying to think through how to get it right.

Metaphorical observation:

(From my back yard)
The rooster that don't crow has all the hens... while the others fight and bicker about who is the biggest and best. The two fools fighting don't realize they are the same size... nor do they realize that the rooster who doesn't crow lives without a collar. (The collars keep the sound of the crow from amplifying and bothering neighbors.) The rooster who doesn't crow was honorably named Jihad upon his hatching. I am not Islamic - though I appreciate the concept of "Jihad."

My wife calls him Jiji, but I named him Jihad for a reason. Jiji was the final rooster to hatch from the first batch of eggs that we incubated. He could not get out of the shell on his own. He was stuck, and covered in blood, so I told my wife to let it be - let him figure it out. She didn't. She helped him hatch. I didn't mind. So, the one who wasn't supposed "to be" was, and is. He was slow at first - took a little longer to catch on.

When his asshole brother was still around, he got picked on. But he always took it with stride. After time, we decided to thin our flocks and only keep bantam and cochin chickens. (Jihad is a bantam cochin.) So, finally his flock composed of himself and his father, Begonia. The other flock was/is led by Peanut - another bantam cochin. Peanut was spoiled rotten as a chick, and he always thinks he has something to prove.

So, after the 7 big hens were sold- they were total bitches - the farm was calm. So, I decided to let them merge and see what happened. The ladies had some minor squabbles at first, and then quickly got over it... Peanut and Begonia.... gooooooodnesssaz gracious. Those two fools just need to figure it out. They aren't fatal- and all they do is hurt each others pride. They only fight when my wife or myself go out there. It's like they are trying to show off. So, those two knuckleheads go at it. While Jihad quietly minds his business and tends the ladies - since the other idiots are fighting each other.

They all started with collars... but after observing, I decided Jiji earned his freedom to choose. If he crows- then I hope it is the loudest crow I have ever heard. I hope it sends terror down the spines of the two fighting fools. Of course.... he won't. Why would he? He has it made. He sits back, patient, caring, and non-violent. The ladies prefer him, due to not fighting.

Well - for peanut and begonia: i tried many approaches. Until lately, I'd given up. But.... then I saw it... the hack. See, a while back... a little fuzzy white dog found its way to my wife. I said, "hell no! We're not getting another dog. Call him Foster, because that is all this is... a temporary foster home...."

Yeah. We still have Foster. I love that little dude. I jokingly say that he is a reincarnation of myself that came back in time to teach me some lessons and to spend time with my wife. He always gives me a stern look that says, "STFU, dude... you are not supposed to know. I know you know, but quit telling her."

Anyways... where was i going? Oh right. So, my friend came to visit this weekend and we ate some 4-HO-MiPT. It was lovely! Well, we went outside for a while to enjoy the beautiful day. Naturally, we invited the dogs to join us. Now, Foster loves eating chicken shit... (so maybe he isn't my reincarnation.... though i do use cured chicken shit as my magic fertilizer. Cheap... just need a shovel and time. I got those.) Back on track - i was gazing into the beautiful blue sky watching the clouds morph and change as they passed across my view.

Begonia and Peanut started going at it. Foster was nearby and he ran right up to them. No barking, no biting, just ran up to them and stood between them. I saw the hack... "Good boy, Foster! GOOD BOY!" The two birds stopped fighting and turned around. I waited. A few mins later, the two fools start again. I look at Foster and say, "go." He ran over and stood between them. I praised him and rewarded him. This behavior continued. Each time he stood between them, I praised him.

Meanwhile... Jiji never had to bother with fighting. He never bothered with crowing excessively. He never bothered trying to be the biggest or the best. He IS the biggest AND the best. The little mistake that should not have happened was the one that turned out to be the favored bird. Jiji lives with 0 restraints. He can do whatever he wants. He's earned it. The other two nuckleheads.... for them, I have a dog that wilk help. Because... i was tired of watching the fools fight. I was going to let one kill the other and then that would just be the way it is.

However, with the help of a psychedelic and an unintended little fluffy white dog - i don't have to worry about being the peace-keeper. Foster likes eating chicken turds, so he doesn't mind doing his part. He gets free (nasty) treats. Lol.



Why does any of this relate? The fools fighting are the ones that insist on their team being the one to gain power of "the flock" (us.) Some of us will crow in their favor. Some will argue and fight. Let them. Let them be the distraction. Find someone who has access to their publications. Read them and decide for yourself. Is it needed? Collars and cages are for the crower and the fighters. Jihad walks quiet and free. He does what he pleases, and bothers no one. Therefore he gets "special" privileges. Kinda like.... how any of us could replicate the studies... but the more we crow for MAPS and COMPASS - the smaller our cages will get and the tighter the collars will be. Please think about this. If you wanna crow - go crow! If you wanna fight the other crowers - go fight! Don't be surprised when something steps in front of you and breaks the spirit.


Me? I'll follow the lead of Jihad. Let the fools fight. I'm at a point where I can sit and watch, while gaining all the benefits. No collar. No cage. No problem. Nothing changed other than perspective. So - this goes along with Kanna's comment. (Plus, I think Kanna might me a magical wizard in disguise....)

Putting people in an experimental setting and then demanding empirical research that proves something that we already know seems twisted. The research is there/here/everywhere. The corperations are the ones who want the power of choice. Right now, the choice is in the power of the people. There are risks. The tools are there. They made themselves available for the ones who seek.




Take Care!
ACY

Hey burnt, I'm a fan of the information you have put here on the nexus over the years and I hope all is well.

For what it is worth, I think criminalization of these powerful substances has done a great discervice to everyone. A rational society would be partnering with these substances with an open mind to understand them and utilize them in the best known way to help bring a better life to people.

Unfortunately, we are not that kind of society. However, we do have people who think this way. Slowly but steadily, with the truth behind them, these people are making progress.

One concern that keeps on coming up is that as we learn and prove the benefits of psychedelic drugs, comercial interests will usurp them for the profit motive - and make their benefits secondary to that. This battle is happening now. Unfortunately this paradigm is the current way to do things in our world. It is my hope that as we grow as a people with a healthy mind and a healthy spirit full of love, we can leave the profit motive behind one day thanks to monetarily unencumbered powerful technologies that make scarcity obsolete. That seems like a distant dream at this point. Yet we can dream, right?

Cheers.

Yes, my wife had a good friend get a major messianic complex from acid. Ended up in hospital. I think overall he recovered but I doubt he was ever the same.



Agree. I generally think all drugs should be legal even the dangerous ones like cocaine, methamphetamine and heroin. I think the consequences of illegal are always worse then legal. Unless you imagine some far out dystopian nightmare of corporations controlling people with drugs but I'm not too worried about that. Any realistic legalization scenario will have regulations that should aim to minimize some of these sorts of issues.



I think a good example of this is Spravato, the legal version of nasal spray ketamine, that was recently approved by FDA costs ~$900 per dose! A gram pharmaceutically pure ketamine can cost ~10x less then that on black market. I guess someone has to make money back on clinical trials but that's just too much for average person in my opinion. Even with insurance covering part of the cost its going to end up being a lot.



I agree we already know enough. Even if we didn't know people should have right to make choices about their own body. Yes people can find their own way but its a bummer when that ends up in jail time. Still think research is worth it to change mainstream's mind to at least be more accepting.

Nice story about the dogs and cocks.



Did you mean the double negative? Or did you mean you don't think psychedelics in clinical setting is best way?

My opinion is there should be more options when we start thinking about these treatment modalities. I personally prefer to trip in nature or at home. The nature of clinical research makes it hard to prove what approach is the safest and most effective without limiting other approaches.