I have this theory, about becoming aware. Meaning you could trip however fine until you notice something that changes everything. As you notice more you become more woke, thus your mind is harder to pull apart because your ability to hold on just got too strong, not really voluntarily, you just notice more.

For me it seems the trip moves from being “out there” where you look at and more into your mind more, less visuals and more inside the core of your mind where concepts and base (involuntary?) understanding that are more of a foundational nature and not the highly active thinking part where your inner dialog takes place.

So when it does that, you can find yourself in some really testing situations and thoughts. Maybe I just interpret them that way but like when language loses all meaning and you realize your mind is like a trap and “shit gets real” we’ll say. I have to think you guys know what I’m trying to say here.

Is that normal or is that schitzophrenia I’m poking at? How schitzophrenic are we allowed to get before we need to worry? I feel like the “danger” of spice is it’s ability to show you something you can’t unsee, slightly diferent than other psyches, different proportions of possible consequence.

Once you start questioning the measurements of your thoughts and feelings things get real hard to chart because it’s all open to interpretation. My level of what is weird may be a lot lower than another persons but we both say “that was real hard” so both go into the real hard category even though they aren’t equal. Like the term “breakthrough” that term is all over the place.

Tl;dr - I want to feel better in my discomfort.

Well, I think nobody can answer all these questions with 100% certainty alone, not even if the one has dabbled with insanity themselves.

But I think we can rely on total aggregate experiences of others. That's why scientific research of engheogens is so important.

> How schitzophrenic are we allowed to get before we need to worry?
To get answer to this, you need decide for yourself first - why are you doing this? What is the purpose of your dabbling with most powerful entheogenic substances which definitely induce temporary psychosis with longer lasting after effect?

I think that intention and purpose sets the tone and direction of your experiences.

If you lack direction and just want to see some circus clowns, well then don't be surpsied and blame only yourself when they drag you in the pit and make you their little crazy circus monkey

I think it is not uncommon to during trips have feelings that remind one of insanity, or "losing one's mind", specially during difficult trips.

When language breaks down, when all these different parts of the mind that don't normally communicate are now communicating, with all the stimulus and synesthesia, it can get overwhelming, and it can be hard to find meaning.

That being said, when the experience is finished, we can work on integrating it. Eventually it should serve you to improve yourself, to become a more balanced person, help your self-development.

If you feel that your experiences are not only challenging during the experience but also are leading you to become more unbalanced mentally or physically in the days after you come down, by all means at least take a break and work on other parts of life that might be needing attention.

A crazy "out-there" existentially challenging experience should serve as inspiration and make you more motivated in the things you have to do in life, and appreciate further the beauty of this mysterious existence... It should not destabilize you, make you more isolated, lose social skills, lose motivation in life, etc.. If it does, take a long break at least and work a lot on that integration part before even considering taking these substances again.

Both good posts.

@exit, the focus is more on “revelations” or clarity over the carnival aspect although deep down I love the carnival side. The carnival ones seem to slip away though, again mirroring dreams the ones I seem to remember were because of something in the plot, it could be written down, even though I have amazingly crazy visual dreams but they don’t seem to stick. Seems my brain is better at keeping stories than it is photos.

But since you mention that it’s got me thinking that I am new to spice and it is odd so my intention is really no deeper than to stay safe and see what happens. Like picking up a new insturment, I’ll know if I hit a right chord, and then eventually put them together but the insturment is completely foreign so, maybe I could work on my focus and keep a more “direct” mindframe.

@endless, the part that jumped out was:

“When language breaks down, when all these different parts of the mind that don't normally communicate are now communicating, with all the stimulus and synesthesia, it can get overwhelming, and it can be hard to find meaning”

That may tie the whole thing together because, I’m not talking about you know, my neighbor’s cat comes over at night and tells me I should rob a bank to get catnip for him” etc. It’s usually, to put it in words kinda like Pinocchio, our situation with being stuck to a “mortal coil”. For lack of a better term, it actually is all “real”, or as real as anything else and pretty significant but that’s where stuff gets weird. But, saying sections of my brain are communicating would make perfect sense because from my perspective it is a whole lot like being able to see parts of my mind from another angle, stuff I’d probably never even think to notice unless what you’re saying is going on.

Also it doesn’t change my “public” life for the negative other than sometimes I’ll contribute a little to a casual convo about something we wouldn’t bat an eye about here and, you know the look. Same look I get when people find out I hunt for mushrooms and that’s not even weird.

Well I feel better, nice to know I’m not alone. Day to day nobody I know has decided to take up these methods of learning and it’s hard to get the uninitiated to synch up enough to get a solid back and forth. You know the routine.

We are tapping into unsanity!

I like how Sidney Cohen explains this concept of unsanity. It is not quite insane but certainly not sane. It is playing around with language. I think if you start down the psychedelic road you will eventually run into these areas of the mind that you did not know about. Venturing into realms of thought that you did not even know existed within yourself. They can appear so foreign to our normal sane thinking that it can very easily translate to insane, or if you takes Sidney's stance, unsane.

You come back from all of this unsanity and try and make some sense of it all. Integration is very important, as endlessness mentioned, and it needs to be done in a way that the unsanity of it all does not take over. Easy to get caught up in it and fixate.

Any experience can be used as a tool of self improvement. I think it is when you lose sight of this that a break is needed from psychedelics. If you are worried about not being able to unsee something you should not go on these psychedelic journeys. It takes preparation just like any trip to any place. Part of that preparation is knowing you will see new things.

I would have to say that for me personally, I have had insane thoughts that were changed into sanity through some of these experiences. It can show you how to be sane for sure. It is all just a matter of perspective. I think it is pretty cool to see these insane/unsane things and come back to report about them. It's facinating!

Sometimes you just have to leave things at the office. Work is work.

Regarding the communication of different brain areas, here's an image of normal brain connectivity versus the connectivity during a psilocybin trip (we can suppose something similar with DMT)

(source)

So yeah most definitely these substances are increasing this connectivity and we are seeing things we don't normally see within ourselves. Nevertheless just a connection by itself isn't good nor bad, it's all about what we do with the experience that is the key, imo.

Being different, maybe a little odd, isn't necessarily a problem, sometimes people need someone saying things outside the norm to wake them up a bit... Also, you know that krishnamurti quote, "it's no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.". That being said, I wouldn't recommend you to become super excentric weirdo that everybody else is afraid to talk to.. I think learning to navigate the social sphere as smoothly as possible is an important skill to acquire too, know how to play the game.. Though it's good to have some moments to step out of the game too, and hence why having psychedelic experiences and communicating with open minded people can be good for one's sanity

I have never been diagnosed as being any kind of crazy myself, so i can't realy say i'm talking from experience here, but i think cannabis brings you closer to insanity, than most of the classic hallucinogens do.

It is actually realy hard to define insanity. There are obvious cases. But there are many cases that are bordering on insanity. It's hard to exactly draw a line and say "here is where insanity begins". For instance, many types of delusions have a spiritual nature. But spiritual experiences are quite common. Many "normal" people have them too.
And another example: many people believe in things that are obviously not true. But not every flat-earther, for instance, is insane.

A thing that is quite typical for insane people: their delusions are very persistent. They often tend to have not even a little doubt about the truth of what they believe. Presented with clear evidence, or rock solid proof, that what they believe is false, they will not change their beliefs.

I used the example of stalkers before, because i think it very clearly demonstrates what i mean with that. Some people keep stalking someone they believe they are meant to be together with. And they just keep doing it, even when they get a restraining order. It doesn't matter how many times their imaginary lover rejects them and tells them to go away. They keep believing it. It can go on for years and years and years. Now THAT is a typical case of crazy.

It very obviously marks the difference between being totally in love, wich often looks a bit like being crazy in a way, and actually being crazy.

A delusion overpowers the rational mind completely. And for a prolonged period of time.

Reminiscent of a spirograph. I loved those things.

Insanity can be relative.

Are people who buy into the rat race and spend all their time working while ingnoring their kids insane? Depending on your cultural background your answer can range from 'absolutely no' to 'absolutely yes' .

In my flawed opinion, ignoring health and love and the beauty around is being insane. Igonore your kids for the sake of a career? Insane. Proud of binging on fast food? Insane. Willing to compromise the planet and your health for profit? Insane. Prefer to play video games for days on end over going outside and being with nature? Insane.

In a way psychedelics are a cure for cultural conditioned insanity. They can expose the hollow goals of a specific social structure and reconnect you with the beautiful mystery that is life. Is wondering about and marveling at the nature of reality being insane? No, that is the job of an active curious mind. Ignoring these questions with alcohol and hollow pursuits of money and fame is what is insane.

This is just my opinion. To each their own. Peace.

I tend to enjoy my moments of "insanity." They offer a nice reference to compare with "sanity."

Meh, sanity is over-rated. Before I proceed with my opinion - I don't think it's a yes or no type deal. I think it's a spectrum. "Sanity" is a condition which is taught by others to form a structured society to meet the desires of those who are ACTUALLY insane (IMO).

I am crazy as hell, but I wear a pretty convincing human suit. I don't dislike my craziness - as mentioned - it's often entertaining and can make the mundane tasks a lot more entertaining. I am not claiming to be enlightened - not at all (in fact I deny any affiliation with enlightenment in a spiritual context) - but I always hear the phrase, "Chopping wood and carrying water before enlightenment; chopping wood carrying water after enlightenment."

So, no matter my denial of enlightenment, I still have to chop wood and carry water to work within the social structure that is presented - if I could change the cultural stigma, would I? I don't know. I wouldn't want to be the one to impose my own "insanity" on others as "sanity." It's a sacrifice that I feel might be needed to build a family - which is something that is important to me. If there can be a chance of building a family, and continue sharing love with them (similar to the love that my parents have shown me and each other), then I may have to sacrifice my "insanity" in order to pretend "sane." But, you all know the truth!

In my opinion, it's all about the balance. There are times to be "insane." The nexus is my vessel for that. In the flesh, you'd probably not notice me within a crowd - just another face among a sea of faces; a name among a sea of names; hiding in plain sight, with a smile on my face. If you spend a few years around me, in person, I may let little hints out, here and there. However, in order to have a family to be able to love, I guess I'll play the game? The family building process can be complicated for some folks. If they wanna have some kids to love, then they might have to put some time in to get the appropriate resources and "funds" to give a child a loving life.


Take Care,
ACY

I think my daughter says "Daddy, you are so crazy!" at least once a day. I am not sure where she is getting this?! Weird! lol

I really do hope some of my craziness rubs off on my little one! Crazy is a spark! A glint in the eye! Gotta be a little crazy in this world!

ACY.. you crazy like a fox!

That's the way! My dad held his composure when needed - but he let the nuttiness spill over in weird ways; and he is pretty much my favorite person that I know. (I'm kinda obligated to say that my wife is my favorite, but she doesn't have the same history as I do with my father.)

I didn't understand his metaphors and hidden lessons until much later in life. He had a very creative way of putting the moral values of righteousness into terms that would translate into my understanding.

Some lessons are later learned....

One of the lines in my signature is a direct quote that I heard from him.

"If you're on a fence, take a trip. If you're on a trip, don't take offense."

If you knew him, it would make much more sense

Keep being weird!

Take Care,
ACY


P.S. - He didn't show me this picture until much later in life. I knew nothing until he was ready to share. I just knew that he had a special way of looking at life.

Taking psychedelics on a regular basis certainly starts to reconfigure the paradigms one lives with, be it in ways of thinking, feeling and general ways to perceive your reality.

The ways "to be" one was born with and held almost for a law of nature start to crumble. That can bring with it a certain sense of moving towards "insanity". Obvious gaps between ways of relating to reality of before and after trips might be perceived as such.

For me personally these shifts call me to take big breaks after periods of more intense indulgement in these substances. These breaks allow me to integrate the experiences I had into my "self". So to say to start bring about a coherent sense of self again, that allows me to experience life in a fluent and streamlined way. Is that way different then how I did 10 years ago? Most certainly.

Insanity for me is only a problem if it permanently disturbs your joy in life. As the saying goes "in an insane society, what is true sanity?". So in a society that is sick by most of my standards, I dont mind going through temporary insanity, to finally find a autonomous sense of sanity, that is not tied to the false security of sticking to "sanity" according to societys standards.

That being said, one might be wise to think about whether he or she really wants the responsibility of the "knowing" that comes with years of serious psychonautic exploration. Its not all fairy tales and flowers out there.

ACY, thanks for the post about your dad. I've got two little ones myself and have been giving much thought as of late towards what it means to be a good father. That photo is priceless.

It is actually very hard to define sanity, or what constitutes sane thinking. Sanity has not been properly defined beyond "normality" and consensus patterns of thinking based on appearances and descriptions. The truth is not open to democratic vote however, as much as we'd like it to be.

Personally I feel that genuine insanity is actually a rare thing and more to do with physical or structural damage to the brain, as opposed to perturbed thinking processes. Delusions, erratic or erroneous thinking, patterns of thinking in conflict with the demands of modern life.. none of that is insanity to me.

I think it´s perfectly normal, since you are stepping out of the insanity that surrounds us all the time.

I think psychedelics do have an real risk of psychosis but that the definition of the very phenomena is a little bit off. For no one has a real grip on reality, so no one can lose their grip. However reality has a tight grip on most people, and psychedelics can definitely loosen this grip making you feel just a little bit.. insane. But the human mind is probably the most flexible thing i´ve come accros in my life; it may be stretched to the point where you might believe it has finally broken (been there often with my abuse of DMT), but in my experience it always settles back again.

Now it´s up to you to define the value of this state, like AcaciaConfusedYah, i love my moments of insanity for the contrast they bring and the endless depths it can put into the most mundane things.

True. Sanity and insanity are both hard to define. What i meant is: it is often difficult to draw the line between the two. To realy tell where sanity ends and insanity begins.

I think most people would agree that it is a spectrum, rather than two very distinct states of being, with total and complete sanity on the one side, and total and complete insanity on the other side.

A typical characteristic of people who are very obviously insane though, is an inability to adept to their environment.
You don't nessecarily have to be mad, to believe in very weird things. But you have to be, to keep believing in them, even when you are time and time again, exposed to a world that is in very sharp contrast to those beliefs. Like the stalker who keeps believing that he and the object of his infatuation are lovers, even when his love is consistently being rejected, his "lover" is happily married, and the police is getting tired of having to arrest him for stalking her.

It is when someone's beliefs do not change in light of new information, not because the information consistently confirms their beliefs, but simply because they are totally unable to adapt to the world they live in, that you can realy tell they're mentally ill.

Ofcourse a sick society can also make you mentally ill. But even in a sick society there is still a difference between suffering because you are unable to adept, and suffering because you have adepted perfectly.

No problem Tony! It wasn't until I was 18 years old before I ever knew about that life. When I met him, he was a hard working business man that was busting ass just to try to support a new child and a wife. His.... uhhh.... previous "hobby" had a sudden halt. (I'll leave this to the imagination to fill in the details.) He left that life-style in order to give me something that he was unable to give to my (half) brother and my (half) sister. I still think we're all blood. No halves when there are three.

As a young boy, he used to tell me stories, every night, before bed time. I loved it - even if he told the same one over and over (rarely, but it was usually a continuation of the previous night's story). He'd always throw a new twist into the plot. He would tell his bed-time stories from an impromptu (I think? Maybe he had been writing them for a long time...) point of view. He used characters that related to me and to himself. He loves the Beatles and Bob Dylan - so John, Paul, George, and Ringo were in many of the tales - as well as the personified version of my toys, stuffed animals, dinosaurs, or our little toad buddy. Ol' Bob was in there too, though he had a different role to play.

Be good to your kiddos. They'll love you one day (even if they go through a tough phase). Don't lie, but don't encourage them to pursue an unhealthy lifestyle. Don't force your views unto them (including religion, poly-ticks, music, or anything that may be a polarizing bias towards distaste for fellow members of life.) If they can detect it in the subtle hints, they'll ask. Kids ask a lot of questions. My dad never claimed to be anything, nor told me I had to do anything. He'd maybe place a calculated suggestion... And now, I appreciate all of those little drops of wisdom.

We've had over thirty years around each other. My father and I can talk about anything without feeling like there is any reason for dishonesty. He can tell if I am lying and I can tell if he's bullshitting. When we work on projects, we mostly "speak" with nonverbal gestures such as body language (facial expression and eye movements). My wife said it is uncomfortable to be around the two of us when we're working on a project together; because we don't really talk unless one or the other is out of sight or we've hit a snag. [She said it's not uncomfortable in a "bad" way - just she doesn't know the father-son silent lingo, so she doesn't know what is supposed to be done; the silence makes her feels like she is impeding more than helping.]) We just "know" how to flow.

He's getting older, so I want to be able to spend as much time as possible before I move away for some new adventure - where the river flows. So, I have boobie-trapped him into coming over and "helping" me clean up around the yard. Basically, I just want to hang out with him. I can do yard work - it's not hard. I even told him today, "you know you don't have to do any of the labor, right? I just wanted to hang out." It's good - plus he is getting stir crazy due to a knee injury. Doc told him that he can't windsurf for two months, so he's getting restless. (72 years old, and the man puts the young folks to shame. He shreds the water! - and the only person I know that has successfully pulled off a turtle-jybe. It's so rare that only a few people know the secret (or what it is); yet legendary within their group of surfing buddies.)

If you've got a family that you love, do it. That's the choice. Everything else? Not worth much. Just some silly collection of molecules. Family is love.

Take Care,
ACY

P.S. - I haven't said much about my mom. I love her a ton! But, she and I had a LOT of clashing between ages 0-20 years old. We finally chilled out after we realized that we clashed because of our similarities. (She saw what she didn't like about herself in me; and I saw what I didn't like about myself in her.) Once we came to some similar terms: "hey... err... we both smoke pot." That dissolved the boundary and we became much closer. My mom is the rambler.... She'll(we'll) talk and talk and talk if we think we have an audience. My dad only says what is needed to be said - unless asked for a story.



Take Care!
ACY

There's a lot of really good sound wise advice in this thread. I hope everyone
really goes through and reads everything here.
The issue of sanity and risk has been coming up more with my own psychedelic explorations lately. I had a misstep with an LSD dosage a few years back that really threw me. I understood for the first time how a full on schizophrenic episode could feel. The main problem was ramping up anxiety that my wife or daughter or anyone for that matter would find me in this state of crazed lunacy and call the authorities on me or that I would cause fear in them or disrupt the trust that we have. In my mind, in that moment it was a catastrophic event effecting my entire life. The anxiety was unbearable as my thoughts and fear began to unravel. Eventually out of pure desperation I called my sister who is in the medical field and she came over and administered some Ativan and I was able to contain myselfand finally calm down after many hours of full-on crazy. During this time the seriousness of the situation was inescapable and the end seemed an impossibility.
After this no one besides my sister ever knew this happened and things resumed normally after that. The endless looping crazed anxiety is something I'll never forget.
I've had more fear lately during my psychedelic forays.
I do my beat to establish good set and setting mostly in the forest away from anyone.
I think in the Western world we are under way more societal pressure than we actually realize. The sad and realistic truth is I simply don't have the luxury of losing my mind for any extended periods of time anymore. I hate the fact that I'm beholden to a sick society as someone pointed out earlier. Unfortunately for most of us survival depends on maintaining a certain level of basic sanity. This is where the risk reward factor comes in. After many years of countless deep DMT and mushroom journeys I've reached a point of proceeding very cautiously now. A few weeks back I felt myself slipping into an anxiety attack during a trip but i was able to talk myself down in fairly short order. The simple matter of trying to remember and remind your self that you've taken a drug that will wear off can be a simple but important moment.
I realize in my own personal life the stakes have gone up with a daughter preparing to go to college, maintaining a house and jobs etc. For my entire life I've always felt immuned to these societal pressures but for the first time in my I'm actually feeling responsible in ways I never imagined possible.
My psychedelic explorations will not stop they just have to be adjusted for a while.
Sometimes maturity comes slow for us man-children.

What has been (seen) is no more.

Be right here, the rest . doesn't exist