DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 1311 Joined: 29-Feb-2012 Last visit: 18-Jul-2023
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So the other day I had some lab confirmed LSD blotters. Now I have often heard the argument L has no taste, can be bitter, etc. & have also tasted personally the "electric" taste many times & heard mention of it by others. Never having even seen LSD crystal in my lifetime & not noticing the taste from plain blotter paper or liquid, I started to wonder where this taste came from. Suddenly something hit me. LSD is a very reactive molecule, usually occuring in the tartarate Sal form on blotters. Blotters are often stored & transported in aluminum foil, & we all know how reactive aluminum can be in the prescense of acids. Then I did some googling, as it seemed to me tartaric acid may have some reaction with aluminum. This is what I found: http://link.springer.com...0.1007/s10854-013-1268-1There are many more links in relation to tartaric acid reacting with aluminum but it seems to be a bit high-level for me. What do you guys think about this as a possible candidate for the "electric" taste/feeling? I would love to hear what some of the chemists & scientific minds here think.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 2889 Joined: 31-Oct-2014 Last visit: 03-Nov-2018
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Quote:PiHKAL Chapter 3 Burt One morning, a couple of weeks later, I took a small, double-ended vial to Burt in his analytical lab down the hall, and asked him to please weigh out for me a small quantity of material into a separate container. The actual amount was not important, a few milligrams; what was important was that I wanted the weight accurate to four places. He disappeared for a few minutes, then reappeared with the vial I had given him and also a weighing container holding a small amount of an almost white powder. "Here is 3.032 milligrams, exactly," he said, adding, "And it's slightly bitter." "How do you know?" asked I. "After I weighed out the psilocybin, there was a trace of dust on the spatula, so I licked it off. Slightly bitter." I asked him, "Did you read the label carefully?" "It's the vial of psilocybin you just received, isn't it?" he asked, looking at the funny-shaped tube still in his hand. He read the label. It said Lysergide. He said, "Oh." We spent the next several minutes trying to reconstruct just how much LSD might have been on the end of the spatula, and decided that it was probably not more than a few score micrograms. But a few score micrograms can be pretty effective, especially in a curious but conservative analytical chemist who is totally drug naive. "Well," I said to him, "This should damned well be a fascinating day." And indeed it was. The first effects were clearly noted in about twenty minutes, and during the transition stage that took place over the following minutes, we wandered outside and walked around the pilot plant behind the main laboratory building. It was a completely joyful day for Burt. Every trivial thing had a magical quality. The stainless steel Pfaudler reactors were giant ripe melons about to be harvested; the brightly colored steam and chemical pipes were avant-garde spaghetti with appropriate smells, and the engineers wandering about were chefs preparing a royal banquet. No threats anywhere, simply hilarious entertainment. We wandered everywhere else on the grounds, but the theme of food and its sensory rewards continued to be the leitmotif of the day. In the late afternoon, Burt said he was substantially back to the real world, but when I asked him if he thought he could drive, he admitted that it would probably be wise to wait a bit longer. By 5:00 PM, he seemed to be happily back together again, and after a trial run -- a sort of figure-eight in the almost empty parking lot -- he embarked on his short drive home. Burt never again, to my knowledge, participated in any form of personal drug investigation, but he maintained a close and intimate interest in my research and was always appreciative of the slowly evolving picture of the delicate balance between chemical structure and pharmacological action, which I continued to share with him while I remained at Dole. One periodically hears some lecturer holding forth on the subject of psychedelic drugs, and you may hear him give voice to that old rubric that LSD is an odorless, colorless and tasteless drug. Don't believe it. Odorless yes, and colorless when completely pure, yes, but tasteless, no. It is slightly bitter. Shulgin;PIHKAL;chapter3 -eg
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 2889 Joined: 31-Oct-2014 Last visit: 03-Nov-2018
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You are speculating that the "electric" feel of blotter LSD is a result of the LSD-tartrate salt comming into contact with foil?
An interesting idea, but in those links it's describing tartaric acid, not the tartrate salt of an amine...
To form a salt from the non-protonated form of an amine (freebase) you react your freebase with an acid, they neutralize as they form the salt...
... so having the tartrate salt of a compound is different than having tartaric acid itself.
-eg
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 1311 Joined: 29-Feb-2012 Last visit: 18-Jul-2023
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entheogenic-gnosis wrote:You are speculating that the "electric" feel of blotter LSD is a result of the LSD-tartrate salt comming into contact with foil?
An interesting idea, but in those links it's describing tartaric acid, not the tartrate salt of an amine...
To form a salt from the non-protonated form of an amine (freebase) you react your freebase with an acid, they neutralize as they form the salt...
... so having the tartrate salt of a compound is different than having tartaric acid itself.
-eg Thanks EG. This is a nice little bit of information That shulgin quote is what I was referring to about LSD crystal being slightly bitter. It is the only real information i have in regards to the pure compound having a taste & aside from internet lore but still no mention of the electric taste. It seems to be much more rare to come by tasteless blotters for me but I plan to test some by storing a few separately wrapped in aluminum foil next time i find them. It would be funny if something so simple had been overlooked for so long
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analytical chemist
Posts: 7463 Joined: 21-May-2008 Last visit: 03-Mar-2024 Location: the lab
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in layman's terms, there are five types of taste receptors.. sweet, salty, bitter, sour, and 'umami'. of course, sweet receptors bind saccharides (sugars)..polyols. salty receptors bind sodium. amines are rather bitter, so are thiols. the acids are sour, tartaric, citric, acetic, etc. umami is glutamate. hence, lsd tartrate dissociation registers as slightly bitter and sour; even the name hints at it : Lyserg-säure-diäthylamid. säure = sour, which describes acids. also, we're talking micrograms here, not milligrams, of an acid-alkali salt "Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 2147 Joined: 09-May-2009 Last visit: 28-Oct-2024 Location: the shire, England
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I can't say I've experienced electric tasting blotters, but I always have an electric, metallic taste when I'm actually on LSD. Even Hofmann noted this coppery taste during the first ever human trail with LSD. Even from the earliest studies with it on the brain, it was found to alter the electrical functioning of the brain. So I was under the impression that this electric metallic taste was actually occurring in my brain in the area governing my sense of taste, rather than on my tongue per se.
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xͭ͆͝͏̮͔̜t̟̬̦̣̟͉͈̞̝ͣͫ͞,̡̼̭̘̙̜ͧ̆̀̔ͮ́ͯͯt̢̘̬͓͕̬́ͪ̽́s̢̜̠̬̘͖̠͕ͫ͗̾͋͒̃͛̚͞ͅ
Posts: 1716 Joined: 23-Apr-2012 Last visit: 23-Jan-2017
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The recent blottered LADs (AL-LAD, 1P-LSD, 1P-ETH-LAD) came in plastic baggies and I never tasted anything (~10 trips?). The MSDS claimed a 99.5% purity and a hemitartrate form. Also no metallic taste occurred during the trips. Never got LSD with a MSDS, so no data points here.
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Dreamoar
Posts: 4711 Joined: 10-Sep-2009 Last visit: 01-Dec-2024 Location: Rocky mountain high
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I've had the electricity taste/alkaline feel from liquid as well. I suspect Bancopuma is probably on the right track as to why this occurs. They don't call it Electric Kool-Aid for nothin
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 2889 Joined: 31-Oct-2014 Last visit: 03-Nov-2018
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Just some chemistry involving LSD and tartaric acid, the initial question in this post reminded me of these work-ups: Quote: Separate iso-LSD from LSD. Dissolve the residue of the mixture of LSDs from the end of the formula in 120 ml of benzene and 40 ml of chloroform. Add tartaric or maleic acid to precipitate the LSD, filter off, add a little ether and put in refrigerator for several days to get a little more LSD, which is filtered off and added to the rest. Evaporate the filtrate in vacuo to get the iso-LSD and convert as above. Quote:This free-base solid can be recrystallized from benzene to give white crystals with a melting point of 87-92 °C. IR (in cm-1): 750, 776, 850, 937 and 996, with the carbonyl at 1631. The mass spectrum of the free base has a strong parent peak at mass 323, with sizable fragments at masses of 181, 196, 207 and 221.
This base was dissolved in warm, dry MeOH, using 4 mL per g of product. There was then added dry d-tartaric acid (0.232 g per g of LSD base), and the clear warm solution treated with Et2O dropwise until the cloudiness did not dispel on continued stirring. This opaqueness set to a fine crystalline suspension (this is achieved more quickly with seeding) and the solution allowed to crystallize overnight in the refrigerator. Ambient light should be severely restricted during these procedures. The product was removed by filtration, washed sparingly with cold methanol, with a cold 1:1 MeOH/Et2O mixture, and then dried to constant weight. The white crystalline product was lysergic acid diethylamide tartrate with two molecules of methanol of crystallization, with a mp of about 200 °C with decomposition, and weighed 3.11 g (66%). -eg
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 1178 Joined: 12-Oct-2010 Last visit: 08-Jan-2022
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The only time I've noticed an electric sensation from LSD was with one of these Orange Sunshines, it was similar to touching my tongue on a 9v battery, along with a sharp/bitter taste. I've always heard if it's bitter it's a spitter but it was LSD for sure, also a lot stronger than the 191mcg reported in that labtest, closer to 300mcg.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 2889 Joined: 31-Oct-2014 Last visit: 03-Nov-2018
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I wish modern LSD would have modern brand names, rather than recycling famous LSD titles from the past... Orange sunshine was a product of Nick sand and Tim Scully, and may have actually been N-acetyl-lysergic acid diethylamide (ALD-52) Quote:It is possible ALD-52 was the active chemical in the Orange Sunshine variety of LSD that was widely available in California through 1968 and 1969. The Sonoma County underground chemistry lab of Tim Scully and Nicholas Sand was Orange Sunshine's source. It was shut down by the police, and Scully was arrested and prosecuted. This resulted in the first drug analogue trial, where Scully claimed that he and his partners did nothing illegal, because they were producing ALD-52, which was not an illicit drug. However, as the prosecution claimed, there were problems with such a rationale—ALD-52 readily undergoes hydrolysis to LSD, and secondly, the synthesis of ALD-52 required LSD. (The second point was based on the methods available in the scientific literature at the time). Scully was convicted and served time in prison. -Wikipedia Regardless, the title "Orange sunshine" was meant to represent the product of sand and scully, and while recent LSD is named in tribute of it, the true orange sunshine only came from one source. -eg
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Dreamoar
Posts: 4711 Joined: 10-Sep-2009 Last visit: 01-Dec-2024 Location: Rocky mountain high
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entheogenic-gnosis wrote:I wish modern LSD would have modern brand names, rather than recycling famous LSD titles from the past... Orange sunshine was a product of Nick sand and Tim Scully, and may have actually been N-acetyl-lysergic acid diethylamide (ALD-52) Quote:It is possible ALD-52 was the active chemical in the Orange Sunshine variety of LSD that was widely available in California through 1968 and 1969. The Sonoma County underground chemistry lab of Tim Scully and Nicholas Sand was Orange Sunshine's source. It was shut down by the police, and Scully was arrested and prosecuted. This resulted in the first drug analogue trial, where Scully claimed that he and his partners did nothing illegal, because they were producing ALD-52, which was not an illicit drug. However, as the prosecution claimed, there were problems with such a rationale—ALD-52 readily undergoes hydrolysis to LSD, and secondly, the synthesis of ALD-52 required LSD. (The second point was based on the methods available in the scientific literature at the time). Scully was convicted and served time in prison. -Wikipedia Regardless, the title "Orange sunshine" was meant to represent the product of sand and scully, and while recent LSD is named in tribute of it, the true orange sunshine only came from one source. -eg Funny thing about that. The whole "branding" by color thing originated with Owsley. He would split a gram of the same LSD into 5 different piles and mix a different FDA approved food dye into each pile. All the capsules were the same acid, but much to his amusement, when word came back from the streets the users were attributing different qualities to the different colors, red was super chill, green was really heavy, blue was well balanced, and so on. This was early on before the tableting presses and things like "White Lightning" and "Pink Owsley" came into play which would precursor the famous Orange Sunshine tablets. I just thought that was a funny little anecdote demonstrating how much peoples expectations play a role in the experience. Scully did indeed argue that Orange Sunshine was ALD-52, and since it was at the time a legal chemical (putting aside the need to make it from LSD) and having had a previous close encounter with a lab in Denver, it's very likely he was making ALD instead of LSD as a safety precaution. Shame it didn't save him when it came to trial. Of course, there are others who say he was pumping out good ol #25 and the whole ALD thing was just a clever ploy to get the charges dropped.
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Dreamoar
Posts: 4711 Joined: 10-Sep-2009 Last visit: 01-Dec-2024 Location: Rocky mountain high
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This is actually rather timely as I'm currently in the middle of a book on The Brotherhood of Eternal Love. In some further reading today, I discovered that much of the Orange Sunshine distributed by the Brotherhood in the late 60's was LSD manufactured by Dick Kemp under the auspices of Ron Stark in Paris. It would appear that Scully and Sand were not the only players in the game and not all of the Sunshine was ALD afterall.
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Psilosopher
Posts: 205 Joined: 30-Jul-2012 Last visit: 28-Nov-2022 Location: International waters
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Bancopuma wrote:I can't say I've experienced electric tasting blotters, but I always have an electric, metallic taste when I'm actually on LSD. Even Hofmann noted this coppery taste during the first ever human trail with LSD. Even from the earliest studies with it on the brain, it was found to alter the electrical functioning of the brain. So I was under the impression that this electric metallic taste was actually occurring in my brain in the area governing my sense of taste, rather than on my tongue per se. I too get the electric/metallic taste, my blotter is always entirely tasteless and the taste usually comes up around the peak. It is more sweet at first to me, then distinctly coppery at the comedown. I think you are right that it is something that originates in the brain and not on your tastebuds. My sense of taste and smell cross over in a way that is much more pronounced than when sober, like some sort of synesthesia. I constantly smell a strange sweet smell when the taste happens, and it also usually is coupled with a sort of sensation in my stomach. I googled around for discussions on this, and came across this description, which is pretty spot-on imo: "Its like a metallic yet sweet smell/taste. Like metallic raspberries." I definitely chalk it up to synesthesia, I don't often hear people talk about their sense of smell in trip reports, but no other psychedelic has affected this sense as much as lsd in my experience. Fascinating :-) "The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion." - Albert Camus
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 4804 Joined: 08-Dec-2008 Last visit: 18-Aug-2023 Location: UK
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Yeah the taste of the actual blotter never registers as electric, but I get that feeling once the effect of the substance has manifested in mybloodstream or whatever. I also get this without LSD which I at first thought to be a symptom of diabetes or something but after reading it seems that it is a common symptom of 'an anxious tongue'
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 2889 Joined: 31-Oct-2014 Last visit: 03-Nov-2018
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dreamer042 wrote:entheogenic-gnosis wrote:I wish modern LSD would have modern brand names, rather than recycling famous LSD titles from the past... Orange sunshine was a product of Nick sand and Tim Scully, and may have actually been N-acetyl-lysergic acid diethylamide (ALD-52) Quote:It is possible ALD-52 was the active chemical in the Orange Sunshine variety of LSD that was widely available in California through 1968 and 1969. The Sonoma County underground chemistry lab of Tim Scully and Nicholas Sand was Orange Sunshine's source. It was shut down by the police, and Scully was arrested and prosecuted. This resulted in the first drug analogue trial, where Scully claimed that he and his partners did nothing illegal, because they were producing ALD-52, which was not an illicit drug. However, as the prosecution claimed, there were problems with such a rationale—ALD-52 readily undergoes hydrolysis to LSD, and secondly, the synthesis of ALD-52 required LSD. (The second point was based on the methods available in the scientific literature at the time). Scully was convicted and served time in prison. -Wikipedia Regardless, the title "Orange sunshine" was meant to represent the product of sand and scully, and while recent LSD is named in tribute of it, the true orange sunshine only came from one source. -eg Funny thing about that. The whole "branding" by color thing originated with Owsley. He would split a gram of the same LSD into 5 different piles and mix a different FDA approved food dye into each pile. All the capsules were the same acid, but much to his amusement, when word came back from the streets the users were attributing different qualities to the different colors, red was super chill, green was really heavy, blue was well balanced, and so on. This was early on before the tableting presses and things like "White Lightning" and "Pink Owsley" came into play which would precursor the famous Orange Sunshine tablets. I just thought that was a funny little anecdote demonstrating how much peoples expectations play a role in the experience. Scully did indeed argue that Orange Sunshine was ALD-52, and since it was at the time a legal chemical (putting aside the need to make it from LSD) and having had a previous close encounter with a lab in Denver, it's very likely he was making ALD instead of LSD as a safety precaution. Shame it didn't save him when it came to trial. Of course, there are others who say he was pumping out good ol #25 and the whole ALD thing was just a clever ploy to get the charges dropped. I have thought about this as well, would scully really go through the effort to produce ALD-52? Or was this a simple tactic at avoiding prosecution? I guess you would have to ask Nick sand...Though some speculate that ALD-52 would have stored better, and degraded slower, which could account for the claimed effectiveness of "Orange sunshine" over other brands... Quote:Tim Scully worked there as Owsley's apprentice. Owsley had developed a method of LSD synthesis which left the LSD 99.9% pure. The Point Richmond lab turned out over 300,000 tablets (270 micrograms each) of LSD they dubbed "White Lightning". LSD became illegal in California on October 6, 1966, and Scully wanted to set up a new lab in Denver, Colorado.
Scully set up the new lab in the basement of a house across the street from the Denver zoo in early 1967. Owsley and Scully made the LSD in the Denver lab. Later Owsley started to tablet the product in Orinda, California but was arrested before he completed that work. Owsley and Scully also produced a new psychedelic in Denver which they called STP. STP was initially distributed at the summer solstice festival in 1967: 5,000 tablets (20 milligrams each) which quickly acquired a bad reputation. Owsley and Scully made trial batches of 10 mg tablets and then STP mixed with LSD in a few hundred yellow tablets but soon ceased production of STP. Owsley and Scully produced about 196 grams of LSD in 1967, but 96 grams of this was confiscated by the authorities; Scully moved the lab to a different house in Denver after Owsley was arrested on Christmas Eve 1967 -Wikipedia In Denver some yellow tabs were produced containing DOM/LSD, in this case color would count, but in general the brands mean very little, it's a means for the alchemists to organize product, and can could give you an idea of who made your LSD, though these days any brand just gets slapped on any acid... -eg
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Dreamoar
Posts: 4711 Joined: 10-Sep-2009 Last visit: 01-Dec-2024 Location: Rocky mountain high
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Quote:though these days any brand just gets slapped on any acid... ^^^ Worse yet is the copycating and misrepresentation. N-Bombs on Hofmann blotter Talk about insult to injury
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 2889 Joined: 31-Oct-2014 Last visit: 03-Nov-2018
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dreamer042 wrote:I've had the electricity taste/alkaline feel from liquid as well. I suspect Bancopuma is probably on the right track as to why this occurs. They don't call it Electric Kool-Aid for nothin Quote:Repeated recrystallizations [of LSD] from methanol produced a product that became progressively less soluble, and eventually virtually insoluble, as the purity increased. As a totally pure salt, when dry and when shaken in the dark, will emit small flashes of white light. -shulgin ; TIHKAL I always assumed that the whole "electric" moniker related to LSD or things laced with LSD, which was commonly used by Ken kesey and the pranksters as well as the LSD chemist owsley Stanley, was in relation to the phenomenon described above, where totally pure (or close to totally pure) LSD crystals, when shaken in the dark, will emit small flashes of white light... I also assumed that owsley's "white lightening" brand of LSD was referring to this phenomenon. As it only occurs with very pure LSD, I assumed that very pure batches of LSD were given brand names like "white lightening" to reference this. Owsley Stanley designed the grateful dead's "steal your face" logo, which I always thought was an obvious reference to white lightening LSD..."putting that electricity in your skull", and as very pure LSD emits flashes of light, I always assumed that kesey and his "electric" references were making note of this, as anything laced with LSD was referred to as "electric"... Though I could be completely wrong, and it may have in fact been a phenomenological description of some type of tactile perception produced by consumption of LSD. -eg
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 2889 Joined: 31-Oct-2014 Last visit: 03-Nov-2018
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dreamer042 wrote:Quote:though these days any brand just gets slapped on any acid... ^^^ Worse yet is the copycating and misrepresentation. N-Bombs on Hofmann blotter Talk about insult to injury This is not even a new issue, Tim Leary warned Ted Kennedy of impure LSD being dangerous, and though Leary never mentions research chemicals as they were not prevalent at the time, Leary's argument is valid on that front as well, LSD should be legally produced in state of the art facilities by skilled professionals, because otherwise impure or improperly produced LSD or hazardous chemicals being represented as LSD, as well as clandestine laboratories, could all be hazardous, and "because you do not know what you are getting" Quote:Timothy Leary, who realized that impurities were a threat to the spreading psychedelic revolution, uttered prophetic words of warning at a Senate committee hearing in 1966, in exchange with Teddy Kennedy: Senator Kennedy of Massachusetts: "What is it in the quality that you are frightened about?" Dr. Leary: "We do not want amateur or black-market sale or distribution of LSD." Senator Kennedy: "Why not?" Dr. Leary: "Or the barbiturates or liquor. When you buy a bottle of liquor-" Senator Kennedy: "This is not responsive. As to LSD, why do you not want it?" Dr. Leary: "On possession?" Senator Kennedy: "Why do you not want the indiscriminate manufacture and distribution? Is it because it is dangerous?" Dr. Leary: "Because you do not know what you are getting..." Despite Leary's warning, LSD was made illegal on October 16, 1966. https://www.erowid.org/c.../lsd/lsd_writings1.shtml -eg
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 1023 Joined: 19-Mar-2016 Last visit: 07-Apr-2024
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entheogenic-gnosis wrote: Famous last words of a chemist that licks his equipment Ufostrahlen wrote:The recent blottered LADs (AL-LAD, 1P-LSD, 1P-ETH-LAD) came in plastic baggies and I never tasted anything (~10 trips?). The MSDS claimed a 99.5% purity and a hemitartrate form. Also no metallic taste occurred during the trips. Never got LSD with a MSDS, so no data points here.
For me and 2 other people that I did 1-P with it never had any taste. Not even the slightest taste at all. Even the paper was tasteless. I did it 3 times already with 2 blotters once.
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