Has anyone here had experiences with bad shamans?
I have some friends to which I offered ayahuasca and they were blown away by how different it was from their last experience. In their first experience, a "shaman" from Peru basically drugged and then scammed them - he feed them some fake aya (probably opium or scopo based) to get them really scared and out of their minds, and then sold them trinkets for hundreds of dollars while they were unable to think logically. I found this horribly despicable - has anyone heard of similar stories?

Yes of course! Anytime you mix $ with the spiritual there are bound to be those who will take advantage.... An interesting concept I grew up with is that no real shaman will except $ for any ritual. This has played on my mind for the past few years given the aya/dmt rituals becoming what they are. Of course the cost of living, facilities, costs and such needs to be factored in somehow but yes the majority charging $ are scams/in it for $ in my experience. I hear stories of thousands of dollars being changed hands for these things/events (I will not call most of them rituals) and it tears at my heart... seems like smoke and mirrors with the rich guy just getting fatter/richer. I just hope some are being helped along the way

$ itself is a scam but this is a much deeper topic. Using mind altering substances, visuals, messages-anything- to get peoples money goes on 24/7; just turn on the TV
How the system should work is that the shaman is gaining more than physical gains by providing theses services-beyond $ but this includes an enriched life (a tough concept given our current system). Selling trinkets...well I support buying art but when it gets sold with magical powers or in circumstances you describe things get shady.

You have your eyes open to question these things-THAT is the key.

A better way to pose your question might be:

Has anyone here had experiences with bad people?

In my experience, whenever other people are involved, things can go any number of ways.

More so, if cash is involved...

Even extensive research and personal recommendations cannot ever guarantee this sort of thing will not happen, but they may help reduce the risk, which is about all that can currently be done.

I spend a couple months in Peru every year - never met one healer like what you describe. I have only met the best and most caring people down there so far.

I do research who I am going to stay with beforehand though - no way I would sit with just anyone without having a referral first. I always get a referral from at least one person I can trust and if there is info online about them I will check that too. I also ask the healer a few questions beforehand - what is in the brew being the most important question, and then asking how their ceremonies are formatted ect.... If you keep these very easy guidelines then you are not likely to have any issues, and if you dont at least keep these easy guidelines then you are basically asking for trouble and kinda deserve what you get.

Real easy to only stick with the good ones down there - there are so many good healers in Peru and it is super easy to get at least decent info about which ones are good online with even minimal research. I've sat with 7 different groups of healers and all were great - I knew they would be great before I even arrived because I did a little research before hand.

To say a healer should not be compensated for his work is not right either. They should be able to profit from their occupation like anyone else. Sure in traditional society they would not need money, but they were compensated in other ways, such as they didnt have to hunt, had food water and shelter provided by the people, people raised their children etc. Unless your going to track down some food or build him a house, money is a fair way of compensating.....

I think the distinction between 'compensation' and 'profit' is a really interesting one to draw here.

Should healers/shamans be compensated? Absolutely, it would be wrong to suggest that they should all do this for us for free, and then force them to spend additional time supporting themselves.

Should healers/shamans aim to make a profit? I think no. The profit motive is contaminating (we've seen this with how capitalism is destroying large chunks of the world), and I think it invites problems to turn something like medicine into a means by which producers can accumulate more wealth, especially if that wealth is being extracted from the sick, distressed, or simply ignorant.

I am not a shaman, but my work puts me pretty closely in contact with the Medical-Industrial System in the United States, and I've seen, first hand, how turning medicine into an industry has screwed a lot of people very badly.

I would hope that, if you're in a position to be giving Aya, mushrooms, mescaline, etc. to people in a therapeutic context, the primary return on your investment is the knowledge that you are healing people, not a fatter wallet.

That's just me though, I don't claim to speak for anyone else.

Blessings
~ND

I have read reports of ayahuasca scams designed for Americans and Europeans, they are given nonsense brews and charged a good deal of money, it's like a "psychedelic tourist trap"...

Now there will be those who say "we don't want a bunch of crazy gringos running amuck out of their heads on strong yagé, so we give weak doses" though some of these places will have multiple sessions of several days, so your dose may vary as the shaman gets to know you.

There have also been incidents such as these:

·The Observer, 26 Apr 2014.
The body of a British teenager has been found by the road in a Colombian forest, after he took part in a "shaman experience" advertised for tourists. His family have said that Henry Miller, 19, from Kingsdown in Bristol, took part in a local tribal ritual, drinking a herbal concoction known as yagé and apparently suffering a fatal reaction to the hallucinogenic infusion.

Reports suggest that Miller was with a group of foreign tourists -- all of whom had paid $50 (£36) for the experience and who drank the brew together -- but who were ushered back to their lodgings when Miller took ill with the assurance that the tribespeople were looking after him. His body was found dumped by a road near the southern city of Mocoa, close to the border with Ecuador and on the edge of the Amazonian basin.

··Famous Case: Kyle Nolan - September 2012
Very widely reported ayahuasca-related fatality of an 18-year-old young man. Kyle Nolan travelled to Peru to take part in an ayahuasca ceremony, but died while there. The shaman, Jose Manuel Pineda, buried Mr. Nolan's body and later told his family Kyle had simply gone missing. On further investigation, the shaman admitted that Kyle had died during the ceremony, and said he had taken an excessive dose. Nolan's family was suspicious and his father stated, "I believe my son was murdered because people don't die from ingesting ayahuasca". As of April 2013, no final information indicating Kyle died from ayahuasca ingestion has been published.

Peruvian shaman admitted to police on Wednesday that he had buried the body of a U.S. teenager to cover up his death during a spiritual retreat in the Amazon last month. ¶ Shaman Jose Pineda Vargas, 58, told the authorities that 18-year-old Kyle Joseph Nolan, from northern California, died on August 22 from exceeding the dosage of a medicinal brew called Ayahuasca while staying at the Shimbre Shamanic Center. ¶ Vargas then buried Nolan's body at his jungle retreat and said that the teenager disappeared. Nolan's mother began searching for him after he failed to return from Peru as scheduled August 27.

···Pérez LR. "Who is authorized to be a Shaman in Colombia? Reflections after Deaths in a Hybrid Ayahuasca Ceremony". BiaLabate.net. 2011.
As it is reported, although Elias Cortés offered Ayahuasca, he did not make the brew but bought Yage (the name Ayahuasca receives in Colombia) from "cookers" in the Putumayo region. [...] ¶ After the ceremony held on 14 August the autopsies of dead men were carried out with delay, as relatives hoped men were still in trance and their souls would return to their bodies. It seems that Elias Cortes have moved to Venezuela in order to escape from Colombian justice. [...] ¶ Editorial note from [BiaLabate.net]: There is no evidence that these people died from drinking ayahuasca. The article above is a comment on media reports; the details are still under investigation, and the results of the autopsies have not been published.
Sourced from:
https://www.erowid.org/c...ca/ayahuasca_death.shtml

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I think that when becoming a consumer on an international market one must use the greatest caution and best judgement available, specially when powerful psychedelic drugs are involved. You could be robbed while disoriented on drugs, kidnapped while on drugs, you could overdose and be thrown in a ditch, all these things must be considered.

And again it's not the ayahuasca that is negative, it's the humans using it for their means, there will always be unethical, irresponsible, and malicious people out there, and spirituality gives these people a perfect "sheep's clothing" to hide the fact they are "wolves", spiritually inclined people will think "this is a holy and honorable and moral man because he speaks of spirituality or God" when in a good deal of cases, bad people looking for easy prey love the trust that comes with being seen as a spiritual teacher, there are plenty of immoral people hiding in the world of religion and spirituality.

(I've never taken yage out of my home country, but I can imagine being alone in a foreign land surrounded by strangers on powerful psychedelics may be a more difficult situation than these people first think it will be, and should be considered well)

I understand compensation for supplies and services, however I have found that most honorable and righteous spiritual teachers will offer their services and sacraments free of charge, they are concerned with helping others, they are selfless, and should be eager to share their spiritual knowledge and sacraments with anybody who has a sincere desire to learn, and will never ask for money as helping others towards a spiritual existence is payment enough. however since the people they help respect them so much and are so grateful for their wisdom and help, that they will provide compensation without being asked.

...but I guess the last paragraph really is not relevant as everybody has different views when it comes to spirituality, religion and money. (I think that money and materialism promotes values which are antithetical to all spiritual traditions, and should never become an integral piece or determining factor regarding whether your services are provided or not...but that's just me)

-eg

No traditional shamans ever worked for free - every single one was always supported by the community with at least food and shelter. The idea of things being free is a completely modern idea.

Many indigenous cultures believe in reciprocation rather then profit though. Reciprocation can be seen in the world all around you - look at the cycles of death and life for example. Instead of imbalanced profit which isnt sustainable, reciprocation instead is based on balanced exchange.

The idea of me giving away my services for free wouldnt really work.... I am booked so full with people needing my help that I usually work 50 hours a week helping others. I still will help anyone regardless of whether they can afford my asking donation, and I would never turn anyone away, but if I didnt accept donations I would not be able to give 50 hours a week of my time to my community without starving and being homeless.

Real healers get real demands on their time.... Once you start really getting real results for your community word spread quick and everyone comes around asking for your help.... I get booked full at 50 hours a week and limit myself to that much time because I get stretched too thin otherwise. I think the free idea only works until you get a larger community asking for your services - at some point you have to decide whether you can accept donations or whether you just need to keep turning people away so you have time to work a regular job. Which is better? Accepting fair donations from those that can afford it or turning most people away so that you can work another job and always heal for free on the side? My main concern is helping the most people so donations make that possible.

I do try to offer lots of info for free though. Some people are able to help themselves and it doesnt take as much time to offer free information. But I feel good asking for donations for my in person work - only way I can help as many people as I do.

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