Does Salvia allow us to view what's going on in our Visual Cortex / Brains?
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Last night I smoked a small amount of cannabis, then chewed a single palm-sized Salvia leaf for a few minutes before swallowing. I had about an hour to work in a nice, light dose Salvia space.

(After years of smoking high-dosage extracts, I've recently started exploring with low dose extracts and chewing/eating fresh leaves.)

Over the years, my experiences have become rather repetitive in certain ways. One of the things that frequently occurs at the onset is I feel as though my awareness is pulling away (inward) from the eyes-sockets of my body. The stronger the dose, the farther (and faster) away I get. Then the familiar unzipping of reality, rolling through thoughts and visuals, visual framestacking, slices of information, etc. takes place.

At low doses, I find I can somewhat consciously control and practice this point-of-view shift from my eye-sockets to slightly inward and back again. When smoking high extracts, I'm pulled away from the 'eyes' point of view automatically with no control. (Ironically, when going inward, my sense of space is larger - as though I feel bigger than my physical body.)

Frequently, I have a vision of many monitors on the inside of my body/skin/skull as my awareness pulls away from my eye sockets. As my awareness goes inward, I see images projected onto the inside of my skull like a bank of monitors for a TV show. But I don't actually see my physical insides...no grey brain matter, no blood, etc. Just visuals. And I find I tend to narrate the experience through various voices in my head as well.

I recently finished reading Jeremy Narby's "Intelligence in Nature", where he discusses that while we know chemically what is happening in the brain, we don't know how firing synapses creates what we 'see', let alone know what/who is actually viewing what our brain/visual cortex creates.

He also mentions that our brains are 'gelatinous' in composure.

Last night on the lower dose as I pulled my point of view inward, it occurred to me that perhaps I was actually watching the inside of my brain or visual cortex as it pieced together all of the visual stimuli, as well as recalled memories.

Anyone with decent familiarity with Salvia has experienced the unzipping, rolling, flattening of our consensus reality. It's difficult to describe as it visually looks like impossibly intricate gearing spinning in all manner of directions but as you watch you see how they all come together perfectly.

So perhaps we are watching how our brains are piecing together all of the visual stimuli from both eyes, memories, etc. to form what we are 'seeing'.

From MRIs we know that different sets of neurons/synapses fire when different memories are accessed, sounds are heard, etc, in some sort of big groupings. Perhaps our awareness becomes such that we can perceive these groupings. Each web of connections becomes a plane of information in our brain that we can see from this inner point of view. We can also see them all rotating into proper position for the final combination that we would normally 'see'.

I can image being a tiny person in the middle of my brain (maybe at the pineal gland?) controlling this big body with gears and levers and such...while being surrounded by a gelatinous material in which I can see any type of image in any plane around me (the brain). Each point in the gelatin is like a pixel that can become any color as needed.

In real life there are 'holographic' displays produced by shining lasers into a medium such as steam/fog/vapor to create 3D visuals. This is very similar to what I have always envisioned in my Salvia journeys - but never made the connection that maybe we are similarly perceiving what is going on in our brains.

Depending on the dosage, our awareness may become 'stuck' to a particular thought pattern or visual component as the brain fires its synapses in myriad ways regarding said thought. Becoming an object - for example - could be getting stuck in that particular set of synapse firings as they fire away quickly throughout the brain. All other thoughts of a life here, family, etc. may be eliminated while on this particular 'ride' through our brain.

Maybe Google's neural network sotware is similar as well?

Jeremy Narby's "The Cosmic Serpent" indicates that ayahuasca (and I assume DMT in general) can take one down to the cellular level to perceive DNA, chromosomes, mitochondria, etc. Perhaps similarly, Salvia/Salvinorin can take us inside our brains?

Thoughts?

"That which investigates is the thing to be investigated."

I've had similar experiences as I assume many others have, so we do have some kind of consistent phenomenology of the salvia experience.

And we can probably safely assume that some kind of stimulus of the "neurology" or gelatinous medium itself is, in part, responsible for the phenomenology.

That much seems pretty safe to assume, to me. The appearance of flashes of light whilst in total darkness would be a clear indication of a stimulus without external inputs.

That the phenomenology does have some consistency does point to something "subjectively objective" and that "subjectively objective" probably does include the structures of vision and basic structures of our physiology and neurology as well as our "phylogenetic inheritance".

But, but I don't think it is so easy to say that any perturbation or stimulus will give use direct access to our neurology.

The paradox is that the mind and the brain are correlated and coextensive but that there is no mind without a brain in our experience or a living brain without a mind.

There is, for example, no homunculus, no little man inside the brain. That is an image that we create. And it is an image that was popular at a certain time in history that was used to avoid the paradox of mind depends on brain which depends on mind.

My answer would be a partial yes combined with a definitive no. Partially, yes, we are reproducing the structures of the brain at another scale when we experience these odd experiences, but no, we are not experiencing raw unmediated "brain realities".

"Experience itself is always mediated."

Narby may have intuited and seen correlations between the patterns that he experienced and others experience on ayahuasca and some of the patterns that instruments and "objective measures" have discovered. But he did not "perceive" DNA on ayahuasca.

Patterns. Patterns everywhere. Correlations abound.

I don't see a need to collapse differences, however.

I really like your descriptions of the phenomenology by the way. It's actually quite close to the way that analytic meditation breaks up the stream of consciousness into discrete bits of sense experience and bits of cognition. But that analytic breaking into bits does not require or need the instruments of brain study or neuro imagery.

You did that inside of your own mental stream. You saw discrete aggregates of consciousness.

And if that gives you greater flexibility, then I think you benefited from it. But you did not see the brain in and of itself as a thing in itself. See Immanuel Kant for why the thing in itself is not knowable as a thing in itself?

I definitely agree that we are not seeing actual brain matter, or other interior biological components.

I also agree that especially with smoked (high extract) Salvia, which can be so confusing upon onset, any mental ideas that can help me 'remember' what the experience will be like ahead of time can help me let go upon entry. It seems any time I smoke a heavy dose for the first time after a period of non-smoking, I miss out on half of the experience as I'm trying to re-orient myself as if I've tripped over a rock and am trying to catch myself from falling with nothing to grab onto! (Although after working with the lower doses and leaves directly, I am in no rush to smoke large extracts soon...)

I thank you for your thoughts, Dr. Faust!

I read this book
Eye and Brain
by neuropsychologist Richard Gregory years ago, and it has become a classic, through many updated editions, for understanding how the brain processes stimuli into visual perceptions, and beyond. Goes into diffeent types and layers of cells, neurotransmitters, etc. Not that difficult to understand, even though it was not written as a "popular science" book.

Psychedelics research has advanced tremendously since then. Recently, Google's A.I. neural network program (the "fun with art" version of that program is dumbed down as www.dreamscopeapp.com), has rekindled some discussion on why the psychedelic states and art look the way they do:
Why Google's Neural Networks Look Like They're on Acid

Kinda wish I'd gone into that field professionally.

I never smoke salvia anymore.... I only chew it or make a tea or tincture. I only experienced the unzipping thing with smoked salvia, never with chewed - actually it kinda felt like it wasnt energetically healthy for me to go through that unzipping which is part of why I dont smoke it anymore....

I have never seen the inside of my brain though. Usually I experience free-floating in space while Salvia talks to me. I sometimes see her but always experience this telepathic voice. Sometimes she will take me on out of body journeys, but nothing like what people describe with smoking it.... Much more gentle and it looks more real. (smoked always provided flat cartoony visions for me)

My guess though would be that nay plant medicine could show you your DNA and your brain, I dont think either is specific to Ayahuasca or Salvia.... I think it just depends more on what will help you in that moment.

the firing of neurons in the lower-processing levels of the brain can produce flashing edges and corners that are commonly experienced as CEVs and even OEVs by people with migraines. They're triggered by abnormally functioning brain cells and not-yet-understood chemicals produced in connection with the abnormality. The perceived shape of these edges and corners is considered to be morphologically related to the shapes and functions of the neurons. Remarkably, the first functional migraine treatment, which appeared in the mid 1800's (neolithic types drilled holes in the skull) was ergot, of all things.

These migraine visuals are in a sense a kind of projection of what the cells are doing, as the flashes don't appear as "separate" objects in front of the eyes. Like hallucinations, they appear somewhere "internally". This begs the question, so what is being projected, and where? Or for that matter, what is ultimate difference between internal and external ... between the observer and the thing being observed?

you can also see the blood cells flowing through blood vessels in the eye:
here's blood in your eye

The brain organs really seem to be a collection of lifeforms in symbiosis, a livingspace of dozens of symbiotic basically alien lifeforms , including the cell types and genetic lifeforms too!
It seems like their individual states of awareness that may exist are not always made actively projected to ways that our main perceptual components can work with them.

It seems like this symbiotic grouping of lifeforms is capable of focusing on its own collection of inner conditions and capacities in ways that are very profound and elaborate in how complete and whole they are, such as dreams! All of the sage-mediated ones are becoming more fascinating to me the more these discussions continue.

In some senses it is like many "operating systems" are already present in there... think of if your computer had windows and then also had twenty or more obscure or arcane operating systems that could only be accessed by restarting with the proper disc in the reader! Even the word entheogen seems to hint at this dynamic.

Thanks so much for this thread.

It inspired me to read the Chomksy article:

http://www.trulysuperb.c...-of-Philosophy-I2009.pdf

Which I highly recommend.

On that note: I'm not satisfied with in explanations in the Deep Dream article linked to:



The article and model work by analogy, and the analogy is crude: "our usually strict higher functioning areas are not at their peak capacity. Thus, we end up seeing kaleidoscopic, fractal images as an overlay on surfaces. These visuals are coming directly from the base of the brain."

It sort of works as a beginning point for exploration but it is not much. And it makes one-sided assumptions: "our usually strict higher functioning areas are not at their peak capacity."

One could as easily say that psychedelics dissolve or make plastic our habitual patterns of conscious functioning and, in that gap, due to some "stimulation" some of the "subjectively objective" aspects of perception are available to direct perception.

There are meditation practices that also result in awareness of aspects of "subjectively objective" visual function not normally available to conscious thought, and those practices do not reduce "higher functioning areas" of the brain.

What really is the "cash value" of that article? Not much in my opinion.

Deep dream is an interesting analogy and at that level it is helpful and fun to play with, but I don't flatter myself that it "explains" psychedelics or the brain.

More promising is the brain research that sees the global realities and cross connections between "higher" and "lower" functions. And in that regard, the 5HT-2A axis *is* very interesting. As it in regard to brain/gut globality as well.

I do dig what Pau points to with the reproduction at scale of the very structure the visual system in visual "entoptics." That *is* an area of interesting local research.

Thanks so much for your contributions. I like this. How much of the "multiplicity" of our selves can we tolerate? Chomsky argues that we need to tolerate quite a bit of multiplicity and locality in science as well, until some hitherto unimaginable synthesis comes into view.

You are welcome! Many brain systems/symbiotic neural lifeforms seem to process existence in ways such that multiplicity itself becomes clear as an actual fundamental component of life. Many sage plants seem to offer adjustments to those processes; seeming to indicate that it is part of the language of how perception happens.

The stories of perceiving multiple times in life or lifetimes are still very mystifying; how does Divinorum interact with the neural life to change how they are able to process signals being received? Twig has mentioned, i will slightly paraphrase, the the third eye concept about the pineal is perhaps misapplied to the pineal and moreso that there are probably many eyes within the intricacies of the brain that need a little help focusing, as what and how they focus would be determined on some levels by electrochemical signalling!

By looking at Sage experiences you can figure out what parts of the brain are being affected and what role they play in perceiving and assembling the many formulations of reality.

As said a bazillions of times: One should not confuse the mechanisms to the experience.
Experience moves us, do something enough times and you acclimate to the landscape and the experience will no longer hold such a powerful charge...you gain deeper understanding, look behind where the phenomena once was and see how the gears are assembled. Become moved by a deeper more subtle experience, tenderness. Once these two poles of understanding are clear, one can go into these highly selective spaces and adjust the parameters to get intended results. (Not smokinhg the sage is useful in this department if you really want to use for longer and methodical work.)

An area which should illuminate a lot of the confusion that is surrounding "what is the sage self" "multitudes of selves" "singular disembodiedment into youthful openess" is the hippocampus.

Start here if you want to know what the sage consciousness has to offer, or more specifically if your curious on how we are time travelers. The hippocampus is one of the keys to operating the most amazing time and space machine invented (the word made flesh)- the human body.

Most Sage experiences have the themes that line up exactally to the suggested role of the Hippocampus -which is of- dimensionality, orientation, self-motion, relational memory and how spatial frameworks are encoded from episodic events. Memory is not about the past it is about the future. Or more specifically; existing in the now is constructed from a balancing the two poles of time (past & future) within a dimension of space.

Another thought after re-reading this thread:

the Sage is highly useful because it's main frequency is not 5HT-2A or its core action affecting the visual cortex. The sages resonance is a deeper and a more structural frequency that is underneath the space of immediate experience. Onset visual effects are secondary reactions and of possible re-routing of ones perceptive orientation.

Visual perception breaks down into a repeated symbol/form that then transports one into related time space streams.

(close your eyes to open your inner eyes)

In these inbetween worlds is where the orientation of the current time space can be aware of other time spaces. The repeating patterns of the past want to unfold and flow into a single stream. Unzipping can be slow and smooth. Episodic clusters are "dark" they are felt and the transmitter of this sense is olfactory memory. Observing these episodic events in this inbetween time & space consciousness, allows a re-ordering of the narrative history and the processing and discharging of imbalances can occur.

Thank you for these writings Twig!! It is life affirming to experience the dialogues here growing together piece by piece.
The eternal fabric of life is a vastly functional mystery, and, somehow it is such that some plant medicines can limit some of the functioning, or reduce some of the feelings of mystery, though perhaps enhancing others. From guidance written here from you and others, it seems clearer than not that this can sometimes prevent learning.
Here we are able to discover more and more about one that does not limit either and has one of many focal points in the experience of learning.

Terence's increasing-novelty-as-fundamental-to-universe concept, as well as the... attractor at the most distant future point concept shared by both he and Philip Kindred, do really highlight this idea that this vastly functional mystery is learning about everything that it is in all of the ways that are possible for what in its most whole and complete forms of being it actually is!

I love whatever Twig writes, and I know he takes mention of such items as the "hippocampus" lightly and freely.
Nonetheless, any brain model that identifies any specific area alone as seat of "affect" or "memory" or as anything more than playing one small part in a global whole, that model is now very dated. In the 90's folks pointed to the hippocampus for such global realities as "memory" and other such wonderful non-things. That game is largely over.

For your further enjoyment and reflection on salvia space I offer this reflection on 30 years of Dynorphin research from 2009
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih....pmc/articles/PMC2872771/

Dynorphin as one of our interlocutors pointed out is a trail well worth exploring.

Cheers, and best to you all.

Thanks for that link Docteur...
ive been pondering the implications of what the Sage has to illuminate in the area of schizophrenia and was nice to see that you sent a connection to some more connections..

this as of late really got my brain cycling:
http://www.nih.gov/news-...netic-risk-deconstructed

One of the Sage narratives can be interpreted as consciously directed 'pruning' of mind map imprints, connections & outdated models. The difference is that in the Sage experience there is a generation of new hyperdimensional grey matter that allows a transferring of energy where as in imbalanced state may just unconsciously shred away connections.

"A swath of chromosome 6 encompassing several genes known to be involved in immune function emerged as the strongest signal associated with schizophrenia risk in genome-wide analyses"

since,

dysfunctions of the dopaminergic system are frequently associated with immune malfunctions

and

so add a visionary agent (Diviners Sage) that unveils the balancing cycles of 'body' and 'mind' ( (by direction of conscious spirit) ) which is the play between dopaminergic & central nervous / immune systems.


therefore,

Saliva Div with it's pure and clean highly selective nature could be a very useful tool for those who have imbalances in this department.



p.s.

i have given Sage leaf and buccal extracts to a few schizophrenic freinds and they said it was a useful experience. we did not continue a deeper or longer investigation beyond me handing off materials and casually asking for feedback later.

Sweet. Thanks for that link to a connection to another connection. Dale Pendell tried to let himself write and think in whatever form the spirit of the ally dictated. The hyperdimensional aspect of Salvia seems to lead to connection after connection within multiple levels of metaphor. The play becomes quite rich.

I'm thinking about immune systems and about the metaphor of an immune system and the capacity for novelty. The psychotic part of the mind displays a kind of rigidity, a rigidity analogous to an overactive immune system. It also corresponds to a hyper-vigilant or driven waking state that is correlated with dopaminergic stimulation and hyperactivity.

On a counter trend, in another movement, Salvia is dreaming and making connections, making more hyperdimensional and less rigid.

Corresponding to the underlined part, here is a very recent article mentioned by Twig today that relates very strongly to what you are describing; seeming to be an exceptional key study of Salvinorin A as being able to very functionally mediate addiction neurochemistry!!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26239494

Then, corresponding to the other part, is this recent article on a study which did not include Salvinorin A directly but presents much unique and clear information about the kappa opioid receptors, dynorphin, and glutamic acid/glutamate!

http://www.cell.com/cell...2211-1247%2816%2930204-2

Thanks so much. This continues to be a very fascinating thread of inquiry.
I went deep down quite a few rabbit holes. And in the process, I came across some really interesting work on "vagal tone" and the "polyvagal theory."



That's a summary of the polyvagal theory, which basically states that there are roughly two vagal systems that interact with one another and are phylogenetically distinct.



We are meeting with our old fried "dissociation" here and as we are in the looking glass space of activating dissociative pathways, we have to play a twilight game of playing with ambiguity and with working both sides of the axis. wherever we find dissociation, there we find association also.

I want to add more to this, but activity is calling me!

here is the link to the full Schore article: http://www.allanschore.com/pdf/__SchoreFosha09.pdf