I was enjoying reading NGC_2264's massive, somewhat controversial but very well-written post here and commenting on it, until it was teleported up and out of the new members area

Anyway, perhaps if any other initiates would like to comment on it, they can do so here?

I have a couple of decades experience myself, and am dimly aware of some of the things the OP describes, but am nowhere near drawing such dark, bleak conclusions.

In a nutshell, my take is as follows. As the Gnostics and others have described for aeons, as above, so below. In our own meatspace Earth, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that generally, higher conscious organisms predate or exploit those of lower consciousness. There are exceptions, of course, but generally the will to power manifest in all beings operates on that principle unless higher principles are sought to transcend that arrangement. For example, most people are reasonably content to consume factory-farmed meat, even to excess; but those who are not, are in a fairly small minority in most cultures.

Many of us here, I hope it's fair to say, aspire broadly towards holism. This also is something of a minority view-point, as a cursory glance at the WSJ or any news channel will tell you. It should be no surprise therefore, that hyperspace embodies a similar messy duality. The question I have is whether this is because our own "world-eaters" are consciously imitating their counterparts in the higher dimensions or whether the latter are directing the former, as e.g. archons? Either way, there are a lot of ass-souls past, present and future to be accommodated somewhere!

This would explain why indigenous cultures go to great ritual lengths to safeguard their operations in the higher realms, unlike many non-indigenous users. Its clearly a jungle out there, at least in the lower dimensions, and whether you encounter a butterfly or a T-Rex, well, that depends on a lot of complex variables. Also, the widely-held belief that many entities, at least at first, are actually aspects of our own selves deserves consideration. I'm sure the OP has considered this already, but he doesn't mention anything in the text if he has.

I've been working mostly with the Blessed Shepherdess for the last year, after an intense period of psilocybin journeys. DMT-hyperspace could be said to be a top-down kind of a system, with the Source at the top, and a lot of mayhem down below. I truly think salvinorin-A may have arisen as a bottom-up counter-argument to that system. I have felt my consciousness separate down to the cellular level whilst under its influence, on several occasions, even getting the message that this was one of its key functions, enabling the smallest to communicate with the whole. This was immensely reassuring, and might explain why it can be particularly useful for re-grounding.

Famously, the origins of Salvia D. are completely mysterious, and the molecule itself is extremely rare in nature, unlike DMT. The latest theories suggest the likely origin of the plant was probably Colombia, so northern Amazon basin in other words, close to the centre of the greatest historical use of DMT as a sacrament. Coincidence? I'm less inclined to believe so as I continue working with her.

Essentially, the plants had had enough of the monkeys monkeying around!

Anyway, that's my 2c.

Thanks for reading.

What the hell did I just read?

interesting.
just a thought but isnt it accurate to say that all beings are a product of our conciousness, in that we all share the original source.
also i feel that the concept of aithority is important here.
to be truly free one must be apart from all authority.
identifacation of oneself with any particular arrangement of energys neccesitates the acceptance of authority.
2c slotted.

Something about NGC_2264's epic story hasn't been sitting right with me.
I'm surprised that no one has chosen to debate this at all in the thread.
I have years of experience with these substances so I'm not at all inexperienced. I can say that I have experienced some of what is described
at least in terms of aggressive types of entities. I've also had a repeating feeling that some of hyperspace may not be what it seems. But never the amount of
verbalized detail.

From my experience I've combining weed with DMT or psilocybin
consistently steers the trips in a super paranoid direction simply.
After a while this became apparent. After some experimentation with this I too
began to weave an almost delusional paranoid story line that became rather disturbing. It can go in that direction if you choose to buy into it too much.
I consider it to be one potential flavor possibility not necessarily the crux of the whole thing or the core at wich the whole thing is built.

I am dubious of any human constructs applied to these experiences such as
religious themes such as demons and the concept of good and evil.

The ocean may feel evil if your drowning in it.
A lion might seem evil if its trying to kill and eat you.
these are constructs and story lines we apply to nature and individual experience of phenomenon.

With all the detail and information passed along in that post

I would think a clearer picture of what these entities actually are would arise.
I'm left with an elaborate somewhat paranoid Philip K dick thing with no clear answers to exactly what this is.

like what are they actually? where do they reside? are they internal or external?
how do they survive ? how old are they? where did they come from and how did they come to be? I'm looking for solid clear answers here

In that case you are in entirely the wrong place

In NGCs thread he says that most of these experiences were brought on by non-drug-induced trance states, so your experiences with psychedelics may not be comparable.

Not long ago, I finished Stephan Beyer's excellent Singing To the Plants, a comprehensive account of contemporary mestizo shamanism in the Amazon. Naturally, he had much to say on the matter of spirits, and how carefully they must be treated if they are not to turn on you, drive you mad and possibly even kill you. All of this is very common knowledge among the local practitioners, even if many non-indigenous users do not generally subscribe to this belief system. Other authors have also alluded to the possibility of Western users, shunning ritual and precaution, unwittingly getting into dangerous territory, whether they believe or not.

Reading NGC_2264's account, in light of the above, he seems to have "inadvertently" made some fairly extensive contact, whilst seeking to keep everything on his own specific terms, and without offering the customary reciprocal-obligations, and this may not have gone over too well.



Again, he omits any mention of his pre-existing beliefs in this area, but they would be interesting to hear.

Personally, I know enough to know that I don't know everything, but there are definitely areas where the linear-reductivism stops, and non-linear generation begins.

Apart from that, it was an uncannily well-written series of posts for a first-poster. Seems a little odd that he didn't post any questions here during the long period of ordeals, but rather waited until the entire thesis was all complete?

Any papers to suggest that? Not much is known of the origins right now.. being only discovered 200-300 years ago. Afaik, the origins of salvia divinorum were found and are actually endemic in central Oaxaca, Sierra Mazateca region in Mexico.. what is the northern amazon basin? Venezuela coast? Boa vista?

There exists the southern amazon basin where much shamanism takes place such as ayahuasca ceremonies.

Jenks, Aaron A.; Walker, Jay B.; Kim, Seung-Chul (2010). "Evolution and origins of the Mazatec hallucinogenic sage, Salvia divinorum (Lamiaceae): a molecular phylogenetic approach". Journal of Plant Research 124 (5): 593–600. doi:10.1007/s10265-010-0394-6



The lowlands bordering the Amazon to the north, which includes part of Colombia.

Hi again, I don't want to get in the way of the discussion here, but I can try to offer some clarification on a few points. I apologize if my writeup comes across as biased, but as much as I strive to be objective, I suppose it's rather difficult for me to do so after all that I've been through. I'm well aware of this, and this is why I chose to post it on a forum first, rather than a static, non-interactive collection of trip reports. I don't think it's necessary to convince anyone of my point of view, though; if it provides some food for thought, sparks some interesting discussion (which it already has, it seems), or even just provides some token amount of entertainment value, then I feel like I've done my job.





This is definitely something that was missing from my experiences. I took what I thought were a sufficient amount of precautionary measures based on the information available to me, but obviously I was missing a lot of information. I was aware of such rituals, but in conversations with my guide I was told that these were "artifacts of a darker era" and that I was "already protected." Ugh. That should have been a huge red flag for me.



Only at the very end, really. Throughout all my interactions leading up to this, I would say my attitude was that of deference and submission on the basis of their apparent superiority and benevolence. My confrontation with them was the result of, among other things, realizing that this attitude was equivalent to blind faith in something that I didn't fully understand, which did not sit well with me, and I don't think is something that a truly benevolent entity would demand.



I did allude to this briefly, but I essentially believed in nothing, and if anything leaned more toward a materialist, neurological interpretation. I tentatively held a number of working hypotheses about what was going on, but none of which I considered satisfactory enough to fully invest in due to lack of empirical evidence (although in hindsight, I was much more invested in the idea of being aided by aliens/spirit beings than I wanted to admit). This is still more or less my attitude; I don't completely exclude any possibility.



So am I. These are merely cultural memes that are a frustratingly incomplete but convenient approximation to attempt to explain these things from the perspective of tiny, limited creatures like us.





This does not preclude the possibility that my extended exposure to these experiences, regardless of my means of getting there, has left me with some form of mental illness. It's quite likely, actually. Regarding paranoid delusions, I have experienced my share of them while in the midst of a challenging experience, but was always able to overcome them with various means of grounding myself. After a couple experiences with psilocybin, I was able to almost instantly spot the signs of anxiety and paranoia and dismiss them before they could whisk me away into a bad trip or "mind loop." It's possible, though, that I am in the midst of delusions much bigger than those, and I simply don't have the perspective to see outside of them. Again, I don't exclude any possibility.



Oh, I have no lack of ideas and opinions on the subject. For as much subjective interpretation as my posts are undoubtedly laced with, I've spared you from the majority of my speculation and "revelations" about these things. I do not consider these "revelations" to be trustworthy, though, and I don't think it would be productive for me to paint myself as even more crazy than I already have.

Hey NGC_2264, thanks for chiming in. Hope you didn't mind me making a"spin-off" thread...

Appreciate your answers, they make a lot of sense. I've been spending the last two years or so reading everything I can get my hands on, trying to "bridge the gap" between the indigenous and scientific approaches, before undertaking any more deep exploration. I went through a much more minor version of what you experienced, and concluded that further research was necessary, which was...humbling, to the rational scientist in me.

If you are still concerned with the consequences of your (mis-)adventures, I'd respectfully suggest talking to a good ayahuasquero, to get a qualified assessment of your experiences. They live this stuff, after all. At the very least, the Beyer book I mentioned should prove highly illuminating, it's published by University of New Mexico Press, IIRC. Also, Dale Pendell's Pharmako trilogy. It's highly esoteric, very well written and illustrated, and he's clearly been through some serious stuff too, and lived to tell the tale.

Good luck!

The paper only suggests that:



Salvia divinorum was not found to be a hybrid.. in this case, still only found in Mexico. S. venulosa was found to be the closest relative to salvia and is endemic to Columbia. What does this have to do with salvia originating in Columbia?

Paint away kind sir, no matter the size/complexity of your brush. The canvas that is the nexus is surely wide enough to receive it without judgement, because on these matters there is only speculation. Let crazy be the man who shows indifference in the face of an expedition as thorough as yours, with all its juicy words.

As the plant does not have a name in the Mazatec language, it probably did not originate in Oaxaca, despite being found only there today. Having only Spanish names, even among the Mazatecs, suggests their acquaintance occurred post-Columbus. Its history as a cultigen suggests a much wider distribution in the distant past. It is only speculation on my part, but as its closest genetic relative today is found in Colombia, and its closest chemical relative (S. splendens, containing salviarin and splendidin) is today found in Brazil, and given what we know of extensive entheogen cultivation and use through a pre-Columbian corridor which stretched all the way from New Mexico to northern Chile, then it would be surprising if it had not originated further south. The reason it exists at all in the Mazatec highlands is possibly only because the Mazatecs were careful to grow it "out of sight" of any passers by. This may well have been in response to Spanish persecution, which might have already been completely successful elsewhere. In effect, neighbours of the Mazatec saying "Can you hide these for us? We're about to get busted by the Inquisition!"

There is still much work to do examining the complementary aspects of DMT and salvinorin-A. Radically different chemicals, structurally. One widespread, the other exceedingly rare. One a classic 5HT-2A agonist, the other capable of producing comparable effects via a completely different pathway, via kappa-opioid receptors. Both capable of activating physiologically-important PKC, via those different pathways.

We're long on questions, short on answers, and with few facts to go on, so it's time to break out the imagination...!

Interesting! Most certainly could be possible that pre-columbians knew of its existence and perhaps wanted to protect it? Although, I always do enjoy embracing the idea it came during a time of such transformation and to aid in our perception and awareness. It is true, quite difficult to pinpoint exactly why or how, but I can agree that through experiencing salvia itself, is probably one of most delicate and direct ways of possibly conceiving these pondering ideas and questions.

Salvia is so intense and strange I admire anyone that can wrangle that into something workable beyond the traditional shamanic use of it .

It only opened up for me when I made my own tincture, from plain leaf. I'd smoked extract years before, briefly, and it was not unpleasant but not really inviting either.

Oral harmalas, plus buccal tincture: exquisite. The harmalas don't potentiate or extend the experience, because salvinorin is obviously not an amine, but they still smooth out the entry to salviaspace and improve recall.

She definitely repairs worn parts!

Dale Pendell's chapter enticed me to take a better look:

Pharmakopoeia

And I'm very glad I did.

The experience within development and having a relationship with sally is certainly one characteristic I find that does need some process.. sometimes it'll be subtle at first.. next thing one knows is reality being ripped open into a very unusual space of extraordinary force. It is radical, yet patient.. only truly encountering those that are prepared for what awaits one in salvialand.

Looking over at the original thread, I see Seth-sys has chimed in with some similarly unpleasant experiences, also deriving from astral projection and dreamwork.

I'm curious if either of them have read "The Inner Guide Meditation" by Edwin C. Steinbrecher? He eschews drugs of all kinds, but has a useful section on "false guides" and gives a handy check-list, which certainly ticks a lot of the boxes described by NGC_2264. The author maintains that "False guides seem to be reflections of the current ego, with all its defenses, opinions, rationalizations, denials and other problems. They give little or nothing in terms of spiritual insight, and they subtly discourage ego change and growth, attempting instead to help the ego maintain its status quo."

False guides are recognisable by the following:

1. Volunteer info freely, tend to be long-winded. True guides economical in speech.
2. Judge you or others, to make you feel evil, guilty or wrong
3. Communicate in polarized terms: good vs evil, right vs wrong
4. May make you uncomfortable or ill
5. Inflate the ego, telling you you are "chosen" or "special"
6. Are often known figures from your personal reality or fantasy, or may claim to operate on behalf of archetypes.
7. "Make the condition of your life worsen" (not paraphrased)
8. Will lie or exaggerate, are inconsistent
9. Will flatter your ego and tend to agree a lot
10. Tend towards the theatrical and grandiose gestures and claims

Although curious about Active Imagination work, I've only made baby-steps. I prefer to work with plants, and just might keep it that way...!

The book referred to above was highly praised by Jim de Korne in his "Psychedelic Shamanism".

If others are thinking in these directions, and are not prepared to apprentice themselves to an expert, I would urge them to survey the available literature before diving in.

Prior Preparation Prevents Pant-Pissing Possession! (A specially-modified version of the 5P Rule)

"The Ally:

There was no me, but there was no not-me.
The most "Zen" of any plant ally excepting rice."

Yes, yes!

I cannot recommend Pendell's trilogy highly enough.

It covers everything from tea to ketamine, with lots of unexpected surprises along the way. It's practical, inspiring, esoteric, good-humored and beautifully illustrated. Try and get the hardcover if you can run to it, you'll be glad you did.

For those of us who work alone, he's a great friendly presence to have around.