This is an inquiry to the negative aspects of MAOI for anyone taking them LONG TERM as a treatment for depression etc.

There are many reports on this forum of negative reactions to B.Caapi/Syrian Rue (Harmine/Harmaline), most often being Disturped Sleep Patterns which include the inability to fall into deep sleep and irratibility, confusion & mental fog throughout the day due to lack of stable unconscious sleep.

A lot of studies show a link between low MAO and criminality. They show that low MAO activity results in an individuals decreased ability for self control, they were also thought to be more impulsive. Higher levels of aggression have been linked with high seretonin levels which MAO breaks down.

Other studies show infants with low MAO are fussier, sucked thumbs, bit nails and show lack of self control. Rhesus monkeys with low MAO on the other hand are more playful, gregarious and slept less.

On the upside, when MAO oxidizes a neurotransmitter it provides a freeradical that harms the neurons that produce dopamine. So MAO Inhibition is good in that it stops freeradical damage of dopamine.

Personally, I feel that MAOI is quite safe although there is no clear understanding of what unconscious neurochemical imbalances we might be creating in any area of our brain. The brains interactions are complex beyond our measure of them and altering neurotransmission with an MAOI might change some things of which we can not be aware of directly yet will still be evident in its alteration (good or bad) (Like John Smith who after taking a high dose quality batch of Harmine over the course of a couple days starts to misinterperate some minor instances of his daily life obliviously due to synaptic plasticity learning the behaviour of states when there is a flood of neurotransmission due to MAOI. Therefor, John Smith took some action (good or bad), that action of which he might not of taken if he had only left his god damn neurotransmitters alone).

Some remedies offered by much of my reasearch on this forum among others:


Natural:

Datura (3-10 seeds)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datura_inoxia

5-htp & Melatonin

Valerian Root Extract (common herbal sleep aid)

Skullcap & Dream Herbs

Pharmecutical:

Benzo's - Potential for addiction plus stupification (reduced cognitive capacity)

Phenibut & Z drugs - As above but to a lesser degree

Atypical Antipsychotics - Guarantueed to slam you into unconscious sleep but are 5-ht2a antagonists and will reduce potential of the next psychedelic trip.
http://bluelight.org/vb/...chotics-prevent-tripping

Low dose Trazadone with MAOI (effective but 2a antagonist)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2365668

Scopolamine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopolamine

Mirtazapine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirtazapine

Reference:
http://www.longecity.org...ish-rem-sleep-solutions/
http://www.novusresearch...m/research/maobrain.html

I certainly feel more irratic & impulsive on straight MAOI but the positive effects with DMT discount any negative effects it may have, it's just important to get a good night sleep. Try melatonin, not benzo's because they stupify and dull cognitive performance.

Skullcap works via the same receptor sites as benzodiazepines but does not dull cognitive ability. I recommend it. Also, the only real danger I see with MAOI's is an overdose.. but even that is quite rare in itself. However, it's important to keep a careful eye on how much you consume to avoid any possible negative effects.

Wouldn't the fact that Caapi and Rue are actually RIMAs (Reversible Inhibitors of Monoamine oxidase A) make them less of a concern? My impression, possibly mistakenly is that they are generally benign.

No, as I say they are not that toxic biochemically but it is the DEGRADATION of SLEEP CYCLES they cause that is the major problem with DMT & Caapi/Rue and Moclobemide.

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...&m=491874#post491874
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...&m=305348#post305348
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...&m=355668#post355668
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=51152
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...&m=534395#post534395
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=30455

It is interesting you suggested Mirtazapine as it seems it is a a-2 & 5ht antagonist which may be helpful when the MAOI's are increasing the production of predominantly Norepinephrine(a-2 recepter & Serotonin (5ht receptor)

Other, perhaps better recomended medication for high NE levels are Clonidine & Guanfacine which are used for ADHD and help re-establish disrupted neural networks in the prefrontal cortex. Another route is lithium but many people say they feel blunted and unintelligiginent on it.

melatonin & valerian root may also help

I tried the discussed medicine and it worked... Norepinephrine was the culprit as I fell into a deep sleep. I felt really calm the next day but a little bit tired. You can find more information here: How does clonidine help ADHD?

As for the dreams, too much Serotonin disrupts dream formation and excess serotonin is hard to be gotten rid of when taking MAOI & DMT.

You can also take supplements that increase Acetylcholine levels as serotonin drops at the increase of ACh.

That is very informative and interesting information, I assume we adult human primates are no different in functionaing than the toddler or the rhesus monkey in that sense, why would we be?

I found a paper on the monkeys:

Monoamine oxidase A gene promoter variation and rearing experience influences aggressive behavior in rhesus monkeys.

Dopamine metabolism and neurotransmission in primate brain in relationship to monoamine oxidase A and B inhibition



I have tried all the RIMA type MAOI's that are used with DMT and found Moclobemide (aurix,manerix) to be the one that reduced my sleep the most.

Harmalas sedated me and while I did sleep better than on Moclobemide... My dreams were still effected and when I wake and for most of the day I do not feel like I do when I don't take an MAOI the day before. I need proper REM sleep, it is crucial.








Another good point and well said, what is unconscious is completely unkown and passes over our heads like wind. Who really knows how much an MAOI really effects our neurotransmission? Let alone our judgement and ability to process information? If we are anything like those infants and monkeys then there would definately be some sort of impact on the two.

Nice thread

For me the biggest negative of MAOIs is the potential for serotonin syndrome. I've been getting better with it over the past 6 months, but when I go really deep the buildup of serotonin becomes overwhelming and when the spice wears off I end up with stiff joints, headaches and nausea.

Mind you, this is my own doing. I can always feel it coming and think "I shouldn't smoalk this one, but... What the hell..."

I almost always took harmalas with melatonin when I was taking it daily for long periods, and I still do. I sleep like a baby but higher amounts do often make sleep more difficult...But there is better things to do other than sleep at that point anyways. I've noticed that if I haven't been taking them much, then I might feel more groggy than usual in the morning. Generally though after I was used to daily dosing that curiously went away.

Individual variation and other lifestyle factors like diet probably play a big role here, but overall there is fairly vast medicinal and behavior benefits from harmalas that to me outweigh any known negative effects when used right.