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Posts: 2151 Joined: 23-Nov-2012 Last visit: 07-Mar-2017
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This is interesting and, for most of us here on The Nexus, probably obvious. Policymic.com wrote:The news: A new scientific study from Princeton researchers Martin Gilens and Benjamin I. Page has finally put some science behind the recently popular argument that the United States isn't a democracy any more. And they've found that in fact, America is basically an oligarchy.
An oligarchy is a system where power is effectively wielded by a small number of individuals defined by their status called oligarchs. Members of the oligarchy are the rich, the well connected and the politically powerful, as well as particularly well placed individuals in institutions like banking and finance or the military.
For their study, Gilens and Page compiled data from roughly 1,800 different policy initiatives in the years between 1981 and 2002. They then compared those policy changes with the expressed opinion of the United State public. Comparing the preferences of the average American at the 50th percentile of income to what those Americans at the 90th percentile preferred, as well as the opinions of major lobbying or business groups, the researchers found out that the government followed the directives set forth by the latter two much more often.
It's beyond alarming. As Gilens and Page write, "the preferences of the average American appear to have only a minuscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy." In other words, their statistics say your opinion literally does not matter.
That might explain why mandatory background checks on gun sales supported by 83% to 91% of Americans aren't in place, or why Congress has taken no action on greenhouse gas emissions even when such legislation is supported by the vast majority of citizens.
This problem has been steadily escalating for four decades. While there are some limitations to their data set, economists Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez constructed income statistics based on IRS data that go back to 1913. They found that the gap between the ultra-wealthy and the rest of us is much bigger than you would think, as mapped by these graphs from the Center On Budget and Policy Priorities:
Piketty and Saez also calculated that as of September 2013 the top 1% of earners had captured 95% of all income gains since the Great Recession ended. The other 99% saw a net 12% drop to their income. So not only is oligarchy making the rich richer, it's driving policy that's made everyone else poorer.
What kind of oligarchy? As Gawker's Hamilton Nolan explains, Gilens and Page's findings provide support for two theories of governance: economic elite domination and biased pluralism. The first is pretty straightforward and states that the ultra-wealthy wield all the power in a given system, though some argue that this system still allows elites in corporations and the government to become powerful as well. Here, power does not necessarily derive from wealth, but those in power almost invariably come from the upper class. Biased pluralism on the other hand argues that the entire system is a mess and interest groups ruled by elites are fighting for dominance of the political process. Also, because of their vast wealth of resources, interest groups of large business tend to dominate a lot of the discourse. America, the findings indicate, tends towards either of these much more than anything close to what we call "democracy."
In either case, the result is the same: Big corporations, the ultra-wealthy and special interests with a lot of money and power essentially make all of the decisions. Citizens wield little to no political power. America, the findings indicate, tends towards either of these much more than anything close to what we call "democracy" — systems such as majoritarian electoral democracy or majoritarian pluralism, under which the policy choices pursued by the government would reflect the opinions of the governed.
Nothing new: And no, this isn't a problem that's the result of any recent Supreme Court cases — at least certainly not the likes FEC v. Citizens United or FEC v. McCutcheon. The data is pretty clear that America has been sliding steadily into oligarchy for decades, mirrored in both the substantive effect on policy and in the distribution of wealth throughout the U.S. But cases like those might indicate the process is accelerating.
"Perhaps economic elites and interest group leaders enjoy greater policy expertise than the average citizen does," Gilens and Page write. "Perhaps they know better which policies will benefit everyone, and perhaps they seek the common good, rather than selfish ends, when deciding which policies to support.
"But we tend to doubt it." http://www.policymic.com...&utm_campaign=socialFood for thought. It's kind of nice to see numbers associated with this. Blessings ~ND "There are many paths up the same mountain."
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 Got Naloxone?
 
Posts: 3240 Joined: 03-Aug-2009 Last visit: 11-Mar-2025 Location: United Police States of America
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Kind of an oligarchy meets a plutocracy is what we got going currently. Wow, interesting to know that studies that conclude the obvious still get funded. "But even if nothing lasts and everything is lost, there is still the intrinsic value of the moment. The present moment, ultimately, is more than enough, a gift of grace and unfathomable value, which our friend and lover death paints in stark relief."-Rick Doblin, Ph.D. MAPS President, MAPS Bulletin Vol. XX, No. 1, pg. 2Hyperspace LOVES YOU
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 DMT-Nexus member

Posts: 833 Joined: 19-Oct-2010 Last visit: 21-Aug-2023 Location: Planet Earth
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Yep, that sounds pretty accurate. But of course the mass public is too brainwashed to realize this. The US is governed by politicians sponsored (aka bribed) by big business corporations. But hey look they say we are a decmocracy on tv, it must be true! The most frustrating thing is that a perfect democracy is actually possible today through the use of the internet. It would be so simple to set up a voting poll website to pass laws and provide political input for government decision making that was ACTUALLY BASED on the general concensus of the population, rather than the interest of big business and politicians. So easy... But of course, we will never see that happen because that would not be profitable for capitalism, and it would actually make sense. Cant have that. Instead have an oligarchy lol. --------------------------------------------------*Kash's LSA Extraction* * Kash's Mescaline Extraction*------------------------------------------------------ All things I say are complete and utter ramblings of nonsense. Do not consider taking anything iterated from the depths of my subconsciousness rationally and/or seriously.
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 DMT-Nexus member

Posts: 2854 Joined: 16-Mar-2010 Last visit: 01-Dec-2023 Location: montreal
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The problem with the article, and the study, is that they don't actually define democracy (I scanned the study so I may have missed it, but all I saw was a section on "Four theoretical traditions", the first of which was a vague description of "Theories of majoritarian electoral democracy". Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe they define it anywhere in the study) Without a clear working definition of democracy in place, it is a pretty sloppy study. There is actually no consensual and encompassing definition of democracy in existence, making it even more incumbent on the study, and article, to provide one if they wish to to prove that the system is not in place in America. From Wikipedia: "One form of democracy is direct democracy, in which all eligible citizens have direct and active participation in the decision making of the government. In most modern democracies, the whole body of all eligible citizens remain the sovereign power but political power is exercised indirectly through elected representatives; this is called representative democracy or democratic republic." Nowhere could I find an umbrella definition of democracy that unilaterally accepted "direct and active participation", or "direct reflection of policy changes in the interest of the majority" or toward their "preferences" as a prerogative for the appellation of democracy to be applied to a government. America is not a "direct" democracy. The "political power is exercised indirectly through elected representatives." Nowhere does it say or is it implicit that this "political power" must be in the best interests of the majority. If the majority hate black people, the government may institute laws against the will of the majority to protect a minority. Would anyone argue this was not a democracy? From Wikipedia: "Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens participate equally—either directly or indirectly through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws." All eligible citizens DO participate equally (or have the opportunity to do so), indirectly, by electing representatives who propose, develop and create laws, OR BY RUNNING FOR OFFICE THEMSELVES (an inalienable right of any true democracy). This is what happens in the US, which is by this definition, a true democracy. You may not like the laws they "propose, develop and create", or where the pressure to institute them comes from, but that is not part of the definition (unless we are speaking of a "direct democracy", but no one has claimed the US is one of those). So while the American government may have attributes of an oligarchy, to call it one and assert that is not a democracy is a fundamental misunderstanding of the term democracy as I understand it. If they were working with a different definition for the study, they have a responsibility to put that definition in writing in their study for it to be in any way credible or relevant (again, I scanned the article quickly, so if anyone finds that definition in the study, post it here). Cheers, JBArk JBArk is a Mandelthought; a non-fiction character in a drama of his own design he calls "LIFE" who partakes in consciousness expanding activities and substances; he should in no way be confused with SWIM, who is an eminently data-mineable and prolific character who has somehow convinced himself the target he wears on his forehead is actually a shield.
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 DMT-Nexus member

Posts: 5267 Joined: 01-Jul-2010 Last visit: 13-Dec-2018
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It's not a democracy, as you pointed out it's a democratic republic at best. "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - Albert Einstein
"The Mighty One appears, the horizon shines. Atum appears on the smell of his censing, the Sunshine- god has risen in the sky, the Mansion of the pyramidion is in joy and all its inmates are assembled, a voice calls out within the shrine, shouting reverberates around the Netherworld." - Egyptian Book of the Dead
"Man fears time, but time fears the Pyramids" - 9th century Arab proverb
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Posts: 5257 Joined: 29-Jul-2009 Last visit: 19-Jul-2025 Location: 🌊
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In other news, water is indeed confirmed to be wet.
<Ringworm>hehehe, it's all fun and games till someone loses an "I"
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 omnia sunt communia!

Posts: 6024 Joined: 29-Jul-2009 Last visit: 11-Jun-2025
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The implicit assumption is that democracy is desirable. Imo, it's not. Democracy can be just as coercive and authoritarian as dictatorships. The benefit, to the business elite, is increased stability and more efficient wealth extraction under a democracy. There are some really compelling explorations of the similarities between democratic governments and explicitly authoritarian ones in Peter Gelderloos' newest book, The Failure of Nonviolence: From the Arab Spring to OccupyUnfortunately there's no PDF of this book yet, but I'll look at transposing some of the relevant passages here when I have some time. There's also his older writing, What Is Democracy, which is not as well articulated, imo, but is accessible and outlines some of the issues, albeit in a context from 10+ years ago, that is now, in some ways, a little behind the times. Wiki • Attitude • FAQThe Nexian • Nexus Research • The OHTIn New York, we wrote the legal number on our arms in marker...To call a lawyer if we were arrested. In Istanbul, People wrote their blood types on their arms. I hear in Egypt, They just write Their names. גם זה יעבור
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 Got Naloxone?
 
Posts: 3240 Joined: 03-Aug-2009 Last visit: 11-Mar-2025 Location: United Police States of America
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How can I as a citizen employed part time afford to run for office? I have not blown folks with power or money. Affording even 100 photocopies for local fliering (thinking City Council. . .) would make paying May rent a stretch, going door to door would most likely get me yelled at to shot and attending, speaking up at, even presenting at City Council meetings had yielded nothing but a handful of new friends and contacts? Since it is available to all in our democracy and does not take direct connections to money or power, I would like to hear your ideas jbark. In the interim, for those of you who still vote, be sure to write my name in for all public office positions okay? Since it is fair, level, open to all and I have lots of good ideas, can write budgets and am an experienced administrator, I want to start planning immediately on how to minimize suffering and maximize opportunity for all my constituents. . . . Sounds like a formula for single term service to me, but since I do not need what EVERY City Councilperson, our Mayor, regional, state and national politics "representatives" here have, I will be getting to work immediately!  "But even if nothing lasts and everything is lost, there is still the intrinsic value of the moment. The present moment, ultimately, is more than enough, a gift of grace and unfathomable value, which our friend and lover death paints in stark relief."-Rick Doblin, Ph.D. MAPS President, MAPS Bulletin Vol. XX, No. 1, pg. 2Hyperspace LOVES YOU
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member for the trees
  
Posts: 4003 Joined: 28-Jun-2011 Last visit: 27-May-2024
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..what is a 'true' democracy? in ancient athens, where we get the term, major policy decisions and agendas were presented by and made by the assembly (the ecclesia..the 'people' ) ..it was the only 'direct democracy' that's ever been..(except you had to be male!) ..but, other than that, it was 'democracy'...and , yes, the people sometimes made unjust or stupid group decisions..usually based on mis-information or 'rabble rousing' by a handful.. ..but if most of the countries who participated in the iraq war had been true democracies, i don't think they'd have gone there..
there are no modern 'democracies' in the true sense of the original meaning of the word
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 Got Naloxone?
 
Posts: 3240 Joined: 03-Aug-2009 Last visit: 11-Mar-2025 Location: United Police States of America
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Can I has ALL THING? Yeah, All Thing and elimination of all taxes except for some sort of universal carbon tax depending on consumption and other factors like toxic manufacturing processes. And of course legalizing all drugs immediately but also taxing them. I have lots of other ideas for when I get elected in this level and respectful playground I live in.  "But even if nothing lasts and everything is lost, there is still the intrinsic value of the moment. The present moment, ultimately, is more than enough, a gift of grace and unfathomable value, which our friend and lover death paints in stark relief."-Rick Doblin, Ph.D. MAPS President, MAPS Bulletin Vol. XX, No. 1, pg. 2Hyperspace LOVES YOU
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member for the trees
  
Posts: 4003 Joined: 28-Jun-2011 Last visit: 27-May-2024
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..in news from the New Yorker april 2 http://www.newyorker.com...y-to-own-government.htmlSUPREME COURT DEFENDS WEALTHY’S RIGHT TO OWN GOVERNMENT Quote:WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—By a five-to-four decision, the United States Supreme Court today defended the right of the wealthiest Americans to own the United States government.
Writing for the majority, Chief Justice John Roberts summarized the rationale behind the Court’s decision: “In recent years, this Court has done its level best to remove any barriers preventing the wealthiest in our nation from owning our government outright. And while the few barriers that remained were flimsy at best, it was high time that they be shredded as well.”
Citing the United States Constitution, Justice Roberts wrote, “Our founding fathers created the most magnificent democracy in human history. Now, thanks to this decision, the dream of owning that democracy is a reality.”
Justice Antonin Scalia also weighed in, telling reporters at the Court, “After all the pro-gay decisions we’ve been making around here lately, it was nice to finally have a win for the good guys.”
. but yeah....water is wet...!
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 DMT-Nexus member

Posts: 2854 Joined: 16-Mar-2010 Last visit: 01-Dec-2023 Location: montreal
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Pandora wrote:How can I as a citizen employed part time afford to run for office?
Affording even 100 photocopies for local fliering (thinking City Council. . .) would make paying May rent a stretch...
Since it is available to all in our democracy and does not take direct connections to money or power, I would like to hear your ideas jbark.
I am not saying it is a perfect system. In fact I was not even saying it was good, nor was I even defending it! I was simply stating that by definition, it IS a democracy, and the study does not even bother to define what a democracy is before asserting that America is not a democracy, which just makes it a bad, sloppy and incomplete, and yes, irrelevant study. That was my only point. But to address your point Pandora about how you would run for office without any money, well, you can't. Nor can you eat, find a job, get to said job, get home, have a home or anything else. Running for office, just simply running, is not all THAT costly, and no one does it on their own dime. You look for supporters, like you look for a job. You fund raise, like you would fund raise for a charity or an NGO, and you use those funds to mount a campaign. You likely wouldn't even need to photocopy 100 papers on your own dime if you have ideas and can garner support with them. That is if you wanted to run as an independent. If not, affiliate yourself with a party and use their budget. That's democracy. Now, mounting a viable or winning campaign - that takes a LOT of money, granted. But just to run and be on the ballot costs next to nothing or nothing (if you are a candidate affiliated with a party). You just need to convince people in a party that you are serious and committed, or convince people to back your (hypothetical) new party and to back you by convincing them that you are serious and committed. Cheers, JBArk JBArk is a Mandelthought; a non-fiction character in a drama of his own design he calls "LIFE" who partakes in consciousness expanding activities and substances; he should in no way be confused with SWIM, who is an eminently data-mineable and prolific character who has somehow convinced himself the target he wears on his forehead is actually a shield.
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 DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 2151 Joined: 23-Nov-2012 Last visit: 07-Mar-2017
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JBark, to be fair, we were never a true democracy, but rather, something more like a constitutional republic. "There are many paths up the same mountain."
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 DMT-Nexus member

Posts: 2854 Joined: 16-Mar-2010 Last visit: 01-Dec-2023 Location: montreal
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Nathanial.Dread wrote:JBark, to be fair, we were never a true democracy, but rather, something more like a constitutional republic. In what sense never a democracy? By strict definition America, and Canada, where I live, are both democracies. Again, wikipedia: "Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens participate equally—either directly or indirectly through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws." "Equal participation" is the right for all citizens to vote for representatives, as well as the right for all citizens to run for office. How does America not fit this definition? JBArk JBArk is a Mandelthought; a non-fiction character in a drama of his own design he calls "LIFE" who partakes in consciousness expanding activities and substances; he should in no way be confused with SWIM, who is an eminently data-mineable and prolific character who has somehow convinced himself the target he wears on his forehead is actually a shield.
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 DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 1310 Joined: 27-Sep-2012 Last visit: 01-Feb-2022 Location: Lost in space
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So, I wonder if they are accurate on their scope of how far back this thing goes. Learning about late 1800's America made me realize how similar times were then, to now. It would be interesting to see, if it was possible, how often the will of the people was actually reflected in policy, going all the way back to the start of the country. I wouldn't be surprised if it was like this all the way back. Be an adult only when necessary.
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 xͭ͆͝͏̮͔̜t̟̬̦̣̟͉͈̞̝ͣͫ͞,̡̼̭̘̙̜ͧ̆̀̔ͮ́ͯͯt̢̘̬͓͕̬́ͪ̽́s̢̜̠̬̘͖̠͕ͫ͗̾͋͒̃͛̚͞ͅ
Posts: 1716 Joined: 23-Apr-2012 Last visit: 23-Jan-2017
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jbark wrote:Again, wikipedia:
"Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens participate equally—either directly or indirectly through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws."
How does America not fit this definition? You are not fully quoting Wikipedia. This is the full quote: Quote:Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens participate equally—either directly or indirectly through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws. It encompasses social, religious, cultural, ethnic and racial equality, justice, liberty and fraternity. So what was form of government was present in the US when the KKK rallies took place? Or the the Montgomery Bus Boycott? The German Wikipedia lists "Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms" as a sign of democracy. I don't see a nation today that truly protects Human Rights. Not with national war gear manufactures that create billion dollar revenues. "Democracy" is a farce. Anarchy all the way!
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Posts: 5257 Joined: 29-Jul-2009 Last visit: 19-Jul-2025 Location: 🌊
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With the influence of big business interests, corruption in politics, lobbying, etc., I have a very hard time believing that every citizen has equal participation.
<Ringworm>hehehe, it's all fun and games till someone loses an "I"
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 Game Master
Posts: 680 Joined: 22-Mar-2013 Last visit: 13-Mar-2019
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universecannon wrote:With the influence of big business interests, corruption in politics, lobbying, etc., I have a very hard time believing that every citizen has equal participation. What do you mean??? Didn't you pay attention in school? Every boy and girl has the potential to be President of the United States! WOW! What a country!! Of course, it helps if you are related like all presidents seem to be (Obama is 10th cousins once removed of G.W. Bush, etc. etc.). Fear, belief, love phenomena that determined the course of our lives. These forces begin long before we are born and continue after we perish. We cross and recross our old paths like figure skaters; our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future. ---David Mitchell, Cloud Atlas
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 DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 1856 Joined: 07-Sep-2012 Last visit: 12-Jan-2022
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112233 wrote: What do you mean??? Didn't you pay attention in school? Every boy and girl has the potential to be President of the United States! WOW! What a country!! Of course, it helps if you are related like all presidents seem to be (Obama is 10th cousins once removed of G.W. Bush, etc. etc.).
Yes, but they are tied by some bloke who died in 1662. Obama is also reputed to be related to the first African slave. So does that cancel out the Bush link? There is a study that came to the conclusion that in Europe 1,000 years ago, nearly everyone who left descendants is an ancestor of nearly every present-day European. Quote:Even seemingly unrelated humans are distant cousins to each other, as all members of a species are related to each other through a vastly ramified family tree (their pedigree)...........We are usually unaware of these close genealogical ties, as few of us have knowledge of family histories more than a few generations back, and these ancestors often do not contribute any genetic material to us I am not an expert on geneology but if all Europeans are fairly closely related then Americans must be even more inbred due to the recent influx of the non native population. Ufostrahlen wrote:You are not fully quoting Wikipedia. This is the full quote:
Quote: Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens participate equally—either directly or indirectly through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws. It encompasses social, religious, cultural, ethnic and racial equality, justice, liberty and fraternity.
So what was form of government was present in the US when the KKK rallies took place? Or the the Montgomery Bus Boycott?
"Democracy" is a farce. Anarchy all the way!
Maybe if wikipedia existed at the time of these events it"s definition of democracy would have been different. I am hoping that the qualities of democracy are fluid and evolve with us as a species. It maybe farcial at times but i still think that it is the best thing we have for the moment. Whatever political ideology is taking place, it doesn"t seem to stop humans from being dicks to eachother. And i would rather be a dick with a vote. "The spirit of democracy is not a mechanical thing to be adjusted by abolition of forms. It requires change of heart." Mahatma Gandhi
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 Game Master
Posts: 680 Joined: 22-Mar-2013 Last visit: 13-Mar-2019
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hug46 wrote:
Yes, but they are tied by some bloke who died in 1662. Obama is also reputed to be related to the first African slave. So does that cancel out the Bush link?
"Reputed to be": that doesn't mean anything. He could be related to Jesus Christ, but that still wouldn't cancel out the Bush connection. Obama lost all credibility when he started killing thousands of innocents with robots. But that's neither here nor there. Democracy died a long time ago. But something new is being born. Fear, belief, love phenomena that determined the course of our lives. These forces begin long before we are born and continue after we perish. We cross and recross our old paths like figure skaters; our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future. ---David Mitchell, Cloud Atlas
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