I want to discuss and share some observations about deities that are involved with entheogenic plants.

As is well known the four winds and four directions are a key part of Turtle Island mythos or cosmology.

First i want to point something out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehecatl
The Aztec god of wind

The Aztec god of wind is the same as Viracocha
Note the object in their right hand, split at the top and joined at the base.

The four directions and the wind were both heavily involved with these two seemingly different figures. The Aztec god was also closely associated with Quetzalcoatl, while Viracocha has serpent aspects and a feathered headdress like aspect.

The Andean Staff God, depicted holding the serpent, but also depicted holding a Trichocereus cactus is the same deity.

In terms of symbolism San Pedro (Saint Peter) is used for the keeper of the cross roads, the cross being his symbol and related to the four cardinal directions and the wind.

This same deity is found on the Gate of the Sun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gate_of_the_Sun

Some say that the objects in the hands of the deity represent thunder and lightning
the relationship of this figure to Bhairava, a form of Shiva, is remarkable, Shiva is associated with Indra, the wielder of the thunderbolt, likewise as the Bhairava form he has fangs and snakes in his hair.

Note that the Dog and the Deer are sacred to Shiva, as is the staff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/...he_Fool_%28Tarot_card%29
In Tarot we have a card known as the Fool, traditionally shown as having a staff or walking stick and having a Dog. Legba, the master of the crossroad, is depicted with a dog and a walking stick traditionally, and his symbol is the cross. Legba is also represented as Saint Peter!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papa_Legba

Note in the representation of Legba the horns and the erect phallus!
now note the representation of Pashupati from the Indus culture, this is a form of Shiva, depicted with horns and an erect phallus!
http://en.wikipedia.org/...File:Shiva_Pashupati.jpg


Legba is also noted as being depicted with a knife, relating to his correlation with Ogun, who in Santería and Palo Mayombe is represented as non other than Saint peter. Ogun is a warrior God, however it is noteable that Shiva is also a god or deity of Martial Arts (representations including Nataraja relate to this and conserve the serpent aspects)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogoun

Peyote was given by the same god as deer, however deer are incredibly uncommon in the range of Peyote. Peyote was also used by the Aztec culture.

the Chakana is the Incan cross and has 3 aspects to it, serpent, puma and condor, The staff god has serpent aspects, wings and feathers and fangs! It is notable that it is a cross.


When we examine further the wife of this deity I have (somewhat) addressed above is symbolized in the Catholic symbolism as Mary. She is known also by many names. She is for the moment not the major focus of the topic, but is essentially more important than her male counterpart in many regards.

part of the point here is that across thousands of years, and continents that the same spirits were encountered, represented and worshiped. They have many names, but the symbols remain extremely consistent, the staff, the cross, the dog, the snake etc. This is the San Pedro, far more than the keeper of the gates of heaven he is master of the cross roads, the four winds, the four sacred directions. This deity is central to the so called Shamanic practices associated with Trichocereus cactus, as well as Hindu practices, as well as African practices and is among the oldest of all gods in terms of human representation in both the old and the new world.

There is also a consistent aspect regarding this god where he is associated with the underworld, in all cultures. In Christian symbolism this underworld is hell, and he is the devil, his horned aspect however predates the episode the the scapegoat in the Bible and can be found in ancient representations over 5000 years ago.

Now some other interesting aspects can be noted, as mentioned Shiva is Nataraja, lord of both martial arts (ergo war) and dance as well. he is also depicted as a horned deity with an erect phallus and is lord of the underworld.

In Bolivia they have a dance called the Diablada, the regalia of this dance is extremely psychedelic in nature and it is closely associated with a horned god of the underworld!
this god is called Tiw, Anchanchu, and Wari. This dance is also known from Peru, both Bolivia and Peru are known to have populations of Psychedelic cactus! This dance and the horned "devil" symbolism is known to predate the Spanish arrival, though it was in antiquity known as Llama llama.

We also note that in addition to his horns the devil bears a pitchfork, or rather a trident, the weapon of Shiva!

More on this topic later perhaps.
The relation of the cross and Mary here is vital to employing the deity in Shaman practices.

These symbols are found in all cultures and go far beyond archetypes.
There are two essential possibilities, the first is that all of this descends from a single culture that spanned across the entire planet and that like any empire fell apart, there is a lot to indicate this is a possibility. The second is also strongly indicated and not entirely exclusive to the first and it is that the deities i address are real and appeared to each culture and still do so.

Nice work Albert. As you probably might guess, I'd stake my wages on the latter of the two options you pose, though I remain perpetually agnostic when it comes to these deities as it gets very confusing the more you think about it. You do mention that many of these cultures did have access to psychedelic cacti (and likely others with other psychedelic plants) and so it seems likely that these deities could have presented themselves to the various cultures using the entheogens as "calling cards" of sorts. What it says about the exact nature of these deities would still be left hanging in the air though.

This is one of my favorite topics, i could easily fill a book with it but the interest is so limited that there is little point.

I want to address her soon, and maybe address south east asian temple structures, but she takes priority.

Spending a lot of time with my daughter today and cooking so will not get around to continuing the topic in a meaningful way until this evening.

I think the evidence for the latter proposal is abundant.
One can also invoke... should they desire.

This is an area I'm also massively interested in and have spent the last 10+ years working with, ceremonially and study-wise.


I'm curious as to how you came to the conclusion that what these symbols represent is "far beyond archetypes". Surely if there were a phenomenological experience - since all experience occurs through the sense doors - so consistent that it can be expressed in similar symbols by various cultures, that in itself would be archetypal? Do you mean it's far beyond Jungian archetypes?


What about the possibility that these patterns of information exist within the human nervous system and can be triggered through various methods? What about the possibility that these symbolic representations are simply anthropomorphizations of internal processes which can't be translated in other ways by the human brain?

There are considerably more than two essential possibilities when it come to the similarities between multiple symbolic models of reality.

Non Dua Natura,

I have no interest in arguing or debating with you.



If you have evidence that supports your proposal, present it.

Clever editing.

What a needless and rude reply!

This whole thread is thus far evidence supporting my proposal.

I think Non Dua Natura brought up some good points, and did so in a respectful and inquisitive manner that didn't seem in any way rude or argumentative to me. How can you not expect people to discuss the topic? It is inevitable that discussion will happen, and that everyone isn't going to agree when it does. That doesn't mean we need to be so cold about it. There is plenty to discuss civilly

Anyways, back on topic- have you ever considered that it may be a combination of the two possibilities you presented, Albert? This is an interesting question to me, especially having followed Hancock's work on ancient civilizations. It seems to me that there is a number of possibilities, and that more than one could have a level of truth to them at the same time.

My impression was that he is only interested in argument.
I could certainly be wrong.

I have never had an issue with anyone disagreeing with me.
There is nothing wrong with a difference of opinion.

However if you have a different opinion or theory, then by all means discuss it, share it, support it. There is nothing keeping anyone from doing that and people are welcome to.



Yes. I will highlight some words from my last paragraph:


I use the word essential, because it means necessary, there are multiple possibilities.
Note also that i stated the two I proposed were not exclusive. I meant that it could certainly be a combination of the two. Both have a lot of evidence supporting them, other possibilities lack supportive evidence so far as I am aware. If anyone has evidence supporting other possibilities then I am all for hearing or learning about it.

Albert, where do you think "Tumi" fits in all this? There i so little information on him..

I do not know of a deity called Tumi, only the Andean knife that usually depicts Viracocha.

Can you share some more information about Tumi?

Related to this thread is something I should mention.

If you calculate 30 years for a generation, in 6000 years there are 200 generations.
In terms of evolution this is not many generations, despite our view that 6K years is a long time, in a certain way it isn't particularly long at all.

This is relevant because the oldest depictions I am addressing are around the 6000 year mark.

Just to clarify, there was no intent whatsoever to engage in an argument with you, Albert. Truth be told, I find you to be an intelligent, eloquent and interesting guy who posts some good stuff on here that goes pretty deep. There is no animosity here, that I promise you.

I should also add that I am completely and utterly unapologetic in my agnosticism and so am not presenting an argument against your beliefs or theories. I am attempting to point out that there is more to this idea that you're suggesting and that your current theory is dismissive a huge part of human experience.


Again, to be clear, I mean no offence and simply ask out of genuine curiosity, so as to understand your viewpoint more clearly:

You use the word "essential" because it occupies the same semantic field as "necessary", but I'm interested in knowing why you consider those two possibilities to be so fundamental?


This suggests that there was a race of human beings - of sufficient development and ability to use complex symbolic representations - which, as you say, "fell apart" and from which we somehow learned - however the process required for those forms to be ingrained, or perhaps activated in the collective psyche came about - these symbolic maps. I'm interested to know what evidence you have to support this theory as I don't recall having come across it or experiencing anything which has suggested it.

It's a possibility, true, but only one. I can't understand how you consider this to be a requirement for there to be similar symbols found in varied cultures. I'm interested in knowing as different views and maps of the world are of great interest to me, but I'd like for you to understand my reasons for questioning so as to avoid your interpreting my replies as argumentative.


The main thing which concerns me here is the use of the word "real". You yourself suggested that one invoke should they wish, a practice which, done properly, perturbs the centralized sense of identity by filling consciousness with symbolism and sensate stimuli related to a particular deity until one experiences oneself as that deity. Having engaged in that practice repeatedly over years, one thing it showed me more than anything is that those archetypal "godforms" are just as illusory and transient as everything else. They're as "real" as you want them to be, to successfully work with invocation and evocation requires the ability to suspend disbelief or manipulate ones own worldview so that you experience these things as if they are completely "real". If you don't believe it completely as you engage in that ritual, you will experience nothing but a state of strong concentration.

Let me repeat myself again and say that I mean no offence and intend no argument. I find elements of your theory to be at odds with my own experience and studies, but would be interested in knowing how you came to such conclusions. My writing style can sometimes come across to some as arrogant or authoritative, but I assure you I intend neither and simply wish to communicate as clearly as possible.

That is what the evidence suggests, that for the evidence these are the necessary scenarios.

That is suggested quite strongly by certain aspects.

I am unfamiliar with any evidence of a collective psyche or that these are symbolic maps.

Could you share the reason you consider this possible?


Consider first that in terms of human generations this is not much time or that many generations (for 6000 years) The topic is complex, but we find that these "symbols" do no arise or form in an independent manner. We find that the symbols actually vary a great deal, over time. There are no examples of what in evolution is termed convergence, rather much as we have genetic divergence we have symbolic divergence. If the cause was something embedded in psyche the evidence would support both convergence and multiple independent origins of these symbols, but there is not evidence that these symbols show up in peoples experiences in a manner suggesting they are an aspect of human psyche. Likewise the diversity regarding them also contradicts this.


The cultures are less varied than we might think, our species and cultures are not that old and are all interconnected, in effect isolation has been limited. The flow of alleles is something that supports this, for example.


What I am saying is that in specific cases these views are not different, but I would not ever consider them maps of the world. I am curious how you arrive at a conclusion they are maps?



No man, when I used the term invoke it was not about experiencing oneself as a deity.

While in some cases we have possession, like in relation to the Loa, this is different.
The central figure I have addressed thus far is master of the winds, for example.


That is cool for you but is not what i was talking about, or what I have experienced.
Blood sacrifice to obtain an outcome is more what this pertains to in terms of practice and invocation, among other things.


Please do not mistake intellectual aggression with animosity, but no, what you are talking about, something that can be viewed as related to trance states (Felicitas Goodman comes to mind)is a different thing in any ways, though there is some crossover as I mentions in regards to the Loa, but even then there are signs like not being burned by red hot metal, not being cut by machetes and other specific aspects.

Likewise a non-believer can ask the deity to do X, using an intermediary and see if X gets done or not. Consider Obeah, in practice it is not required that a person believe in it for it to be worked. It is intrusive and not exactly moral, but you can affect someone who does not know about it, or that they are being affected by it. The tests are simple.


This concept you share of an altered state where you experience being a deity or god is rather interesting, but something I am not particularly familiar with or that i have any experience with. I have conversed with a deity through a person before, but the person had no memory of the event, zero recollection at all. They were not aware it ever happened.

If due to an altered state gained from concentration you can call the winds, or effect others towards a goal or outcome, I am very interested in learning more about it. Can you elaborate?

It should also be mentioned that relating to this aspects of what is often called sorcery, there is the calling, and while people may undertake training in specific methods employed by methods of sorcery, such as the invocation of the intermediary. they are in many disciplines considered outsiders unless they have the calling, which interestingly is not viewed as desirable by those who receive it. One does not choose, in this, to be a sorcerer or a shaman, but is instead called and has no choice, the report is essentially that refusal of the calling results in death.

This varies to some degree, but has a remarkable consistency.

The nature of the calling and the experience is remarkably conserved, specific and peculiar.

Likewise in terms of most of these traditions there is a consistent theme of matriarchy wherein males are excluded or incapable of qualifying. This relates to the creator goddess being female, in the pantheon I am addressing the highest and most powerful, most original god is always female.

In reference to what Non Dua Natura was sharing about his own experiences (you are male I take it?) to invoke this goddess, or appeal to her, is not to embody, become or experience self as her. One need not have an altered state of consciousness, nor does one need to employ blood sacrifice, though this is a consistent theme that is widely conserved. Often the amount of blood is but a few drops, death is not required. However despite being a goddess of blood, and death, she is also correlated with compassion, mercy and love, having essentially a dualistic function.

One important aspect is that the goddess, and the god are associated with agriculture, writing and technology and are frequently associated with the origination of these practices in our species.

We might note however that our species was not the first hominid.

Along the lines of the concept of the psyche manifesting in terms of common symbolism, in relation to this I would like to point out that different symbols are used to represent the same deity, for example Ogun is represented by Saint James, Saint Peter, Saint George, Saint Anthony and Saint Sebastian in different related traditions.

If the symbol was a manifestation of subconscious aspects, or something arising from genetic memory or our nervous system then the use of diverse symbols to represent a singular deity requires some explanation, for we would expect with that situation that there would be more commonality in terms of the symbolic representation, however the use of these symbols seems to defy "world mapping" and is about representation in terms of reference where most any symbol can be used to refer to the single entity or deity.

In regards to Ogun, I would like to point out his association with the sword, and with rum, as well as tobacco.

This is a Mesa used in San Pedro sorcery, I would like to draw your attention to the content of the Mesa. There are the symbols of Jesus and Mary, however in this context they are not representations of Christianity.

There is the cross, the staff, the sword, rum and other objects.

The Mesa has been described (by the owner of this particular mesa) as a control panel of sorts. The objects here strongly correlate to the same deities identifiable in Obeah and related practices.

The description that follows, from Davis, is very anthropological in emphasis, but gives a decent overview of the use of the mesa, but leaves out the deities and their roles.



From:
http://www.erowid.org/pl.../cacti/cacti_info1.shtml

In relation to San Pedro, ergo Saint Peter, the deity called Legba is a key part of these rituals and his symbols are pervasive, both in terms and signs, his symbol of the cross is particularly relevant, it can be seen above in the mesa.