This is something that I have pondered for some time, and something I dont see talked about in great depth very often here. It's seems that quite a few nexians experience this yet I haven't seen it explained in great detail. What I am talking about is the change in perception and sometimes in visual perception (what some call HPPD) that occurs for some after having taken psychedelics.

Now today I became a little more understanding of this "thing", that most do not refer to as a disorder. I use to, partially still do due to my ignorance, feel that it is a disorder beings that it isn't a normal function that we are born with. My perception of this is changing, today specifically I became aware that I am wrong in my earlier determination that it is a disorder.

First off I would like to suggest we change the word disorder into something else so this state of mind or what have you can have a designation, if for the very least, we can refer to it as something that we can all agree on. So, Hallucinogen Persisting Perception XXXXXX.... What? (Experience, Occurrence, Awareness...)

I may be wrong, and this is just a beginning of my hypothesis on this, but I believe there are stages to this. Stage one would be IMO the stage that ALL users of psychedelics experience at first. What I am refering to is this...

When I had my first real dose of mushrooms I experienced what others had told me as, when you trip your first time nothing will be the same. I did notice this. I felt different, I saw things differently. Something had changed but I couldn't quite put a finger on it. Now I have noticed this same thing increase after having had a very large dose of DMT. It is much more persistent this time around. No hallucinations, but my perception of reality has changed A LOT.

Maybe there are more stages in between and higher stages can include the hallucinations that many of you experience on a day to day basis. This I do not know, nor do I really know if these things are connected. So maybe you guys can help me understand this better. Maybe we can help eachother understand this better. I dunno. But there is not a whole lot understood about this phenomenon.

This has also been one of the hurdles that I have attempted to surpass. I am afraid of it happening to me. It was a huge part of my scary dose and caused some mild PTSD that rears its head when attempting to dose DMT again. So please give me your take on it, I feel we need a thread dedicated to this as a whole.

I think the terminology is not really something to get caught up on in a matter like this, I mean. When we meditate we receive residual benefits and subjective positives and negatives depending on what may arise. Even from traveling or reading a book we may have lingering impressions and changes in personal out-look. It's not a disorder really just residual experience of change in the human psyche. We could begin to branch it down into certain aspects of effect. Such as residual stimulation from stimulants, or the groggy hang-over from GABAergics. It's just a change in human experience and lasting meaning whether it be physical, emotional, metaphysical. If we had to work on a better term could be as simple as human experience and impression. I never considered HPPD a case or disorder, just bad terminology. Just a action will cause a reaction, I don't know if this is much of a start but certainly we can perhaps classify human reactions to drugs with a better set of terms.

I can relate. Since taking a mind-blowing/reality-shattering dose of ayahuasca, I can definitely say I'm not the same person and have noticed changes in my reality (including visual). Things look more beautiful, more energetic, and divine months after. I often see things in my peripheral shudder and shift (which might scare the shit out of most people) but not me, I know it's all an energetic illusion. Everything is constantly changing on an infinite scale, even if it doesn't appear so on a physical level.

It's a blessing. I needed to become more humble and realize how magnificent everything is.

I think that we (our perceptions and personalities) are constantly changing. From moment to moment, we are not the same person. I think that this has always been the case, and the effect of psychedelics is to make us aware of this phenomenon. We hold on to a conception of identity as being static, when it is really rather slippery and dynamic. Psychedelics allow us to step back into successively transcendental forms of reference frames from which we can view the world (and ourselves) more and more objectively. If we step back far enough, we break out into either the infinite continuum or the void.

The brain filters out all sorts of things that make the world easier to manage. It essentially creates the world that we perceive, and it gives us a conveniently restricted interface (the ego) with which to interact with and manipulate it. There is an imaginary veil separating the vast reality in our minds from the vast reality outside of our minds. For some people, that clothe is occasionally breached, and that is labelled "a disorder". We are trained by our environment to interpret the world in a particular way. Psychedelics allow us to perceive the world through fresh minds. Sometimes you have to forget things to move forward. The change in perception caused by psychedelics does not represent divergent thoughts. Rather, it represents convergence toward a more unadulterated, and thus more optimal, view of reality.

Quoting William Blake:
“If the doors of perception were cleansed, every thing would appear to man as it is, Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things through narrow chinks of his cavern.”

I agree. I can perceive minute changes in my perceptions of myself, and my surroundings, as well as myself, more so now than ever since my use with DMT especially.



Ya, that which we do not understand, and is not seen as a normal function of the body already, is deemed a disorder.


One of the biggest reasons for creating this thread is the fact that anytime I see someone post something and say "HPPD" someone also retorts with, "it's not a disorder". Which I do not disagree with, however then I say something like well lets call it this. Someone then says, well why does it need to be called anything. My answer, for the sake of knowing what one is talking about. I know we wont change the world with a new designation, nor will it possibly be ever considered anywhere else. But at least we can have a name for it here so we can have a conversation about it without getting into arguments on semantics.

I've been interested, and in fear of, this phenomenon. UNTM brought up an interesting POV that changed my perception of it and well, of many things really. It just being residual effects of psychedelic use, much like a hangover but with perks. Has anyone found any benefits? Enhancements of any kind that could be considered beneficial?

I had that same (now I think irrational) fear of "flashbacks" after a very bad one more then 10 years ago. Now I just think well it didn't happen until now so why would that happen now. The same goes for hppd.

For the terminology I always thought that hppd is a most commonly known as a visual problem, something of a persisting array of dots in your field of vision, like a tv screen with no signal.

And for the (temporary or not) change in perception I think that's the reason allot of us are using. For me it gives me a new perspective on things and live in general. Not a bad thing or something to be afraid of.

For the assumption of allot of members having hppd it might be a idea to make a poll with a good description of hppd.

I for instance would be interested to know how many members actually have such things.

Also it would be interesting to know what caused it personally i have the feeling psilocibin or lsd would do this more easily to me than dmt

I swear there was a poll on who has HPPD, for some reason I feel I made one myself but cannot find it. And yes HPPD refers to having, i think, any psychedelic like phenomenon happen while you are sober. Visual, auditory, and even sensation hallucinations (like body load).

And yes of course the change in perception is def a majority reason why I use psychs, I am just curious if the visual addition that comes with "HPPD" would possibly be another stage of that.

I want to reiterate. The thread subject "Understanding the change in perception from Psychedelic use" my use of the word perception was mostly in regards to the change in visual perception when one experiences "HPPD" not the change in perception we all get from slight enlightenment after the use of entheogens.

Those two things are often associated, in my experience. I'm not so sure that the visual effects of psychedelics can be disentangled from the enlightenment aspect. Thoughts are constructed from images/sounds and symbols used to represent those images, so alterations of the underlying images may very well result in alterations of thought and logic. I know little about neurology, but I would doubt that there is a higher-level function in my brain that doesn't make use of the visual cortex in one way or another. If my senses seem to be distorted in some way, then I suspect that my sense of intellect is also operating abnormally. Likewise, I think that a sudden psychedelic thought can precede a sensory flashback.

I've been using psychedelics for spiritual development/improvement for well over 30 years now and I can weigh in on a few topics here.

So by HPPD we are talking about what I would call a 'flashback'? Where; in the middle of the day for no apparent reason you suddenly feel a little bit 'trippy'? For me I get that very mildly and it does not bother me at all, can't think of it as a disorder. You can also get visuals for a while after psychedelic use. fades after a few months of abstaining for most I think.

We have these receptions for a reason. If you've ever read an of Shulgin's work, I'll bet you've heard him go on about evolution and why we have these receptors in the first place. I think its just that we become aware of what the feeling is so we recognize it in connection with the more intense trip.
I personally think it happens at low levels in our brain sometimes and its a natural system, just like testosterone, stress, orgasm, etc. Memory can bring it out easy. Just thinking about it can start firing your brain receptors in that same way.

Our thoughts cause/drive our brain chemistry. Not the other way around like so many pharmacologists would like you to think.

And yea, the pre-anxiety of a dmt trip can be a REAL bummer. I had a bad spell a few years ago, where I really wanted to partake in the sacrament many times, but couldn't because I would start to tremble and get so stressed it was actually incredible.

I had never seen my body react so strongly involuntarily before. This was after I had made some very strong jungle spice and went on a few Journeys that turned very red and dark.

And being one of self control I tried my hardest to meditate, breath, and it helped a little. But I had to take a long break for about 6 months. Lessened a lot with re-encouraging myself. Still makes me nervous but not as bad. These days I really only partake in the DMT toke if I'm already in that state of mind from some other classic psychoactive tryptamine. If I'm already half way in that spirtual state, there is no anxiety for me.

But hey- blasting off on DMT is an intense thing. I mean, its about as nutty as being like- "hey- I'm going to jump off this building, weeeew!' I bet, if you could do that more then one time, your body would react in a similar way. DMT is not really a recreational thing. Its a spiritual thing and is/can be scary as shit - as it should be.

One last point and I'll get off my soap box, DMT, (and psychedelics in general) help us to understand the true nature of our universe, the spiritual universe and how they interact.

However, they are very confusing/misleading also. For example, I think what many people call aliens, elves, spirits, etc. are actually their own brain and body. And it feels very alien because we don't recognize it as our own brain/body.

I think it might also be worth noting that there's a marked difference between "HPPD" and certain other doorways into altered states that can often be overlooked.

I tend to see a lot of folks experiencing strange changes in behavior or perception that seem more or less unrelated to drug use, and yet because they have used psychedelics beforehand, they immediately assume that it's HPPD, when in fact this process could be much more well described as the initiation of what can be referred to as the "shaman's sickness" or "hero's journey", or any number of names for the process by which people come to reshape their bodies and minds, and in so doing, the world around them.
Given, this scenario is rare... and those in the middle of it will most often quickly realize the gravity of it without seeking help for HPPD instead. However, it's not at all uncommon to see folks wrestling with the idea that the early stages of change are the onset of some sort of "disorder", rather than the natural function of the mind/body that it is.
This process shouldn't acutely effect the senses except during times of extreme stress or ecstasy, and will not dangerously interfere with important tasks or general awareness and safety... As contrasted with HPPD or epilepsy, which can disturb the mind and senses enough to make complex tasks such as driving temporarily impossible, with or without warning.

While the former example may not be too dangerous, it does work both ways. More often than the previous example, I've seen people in the midst of HPPD or delusional behavior, who are also engaged in spiritual or other practices, confuse legitimate signs of their failing mental health with what they interpreted as a sort of spiritual evolution... which of course only encouraged their unhealthy behavior and sent them further into insanity.

Especially with the trend toward aggrandizing psychedelic experiences on a spiritual or sacred basis, it can be rather important to differentiate between a positive and healthy (even if challenging) change in perception, and the negative effects of mental illness or drug abuse.

Anrchy: You remember discussing salience, correct?
I am convinced that the fundamental shift that happens in perception when you are on a psychedelic is an increase in the salience of everything.

It's hard to qualitatively describe, especially since it's not something that we're aware of on a day-to-day level, but if you think about the way your visual field becomes "interesting" or draws your focus when tripping, what that is is everything becoming highly relevant to you and important. Salient.

Blessings
~ND

Thats interesting. When I read what you wrote I instantly had a different view of my mushroom experiences. I feel that while I'm on mushrooms minor details, things that I'm not usually paying attention too, are more relevant. I believe that might be why during my first flights with DMT there wasn't as much information as there is now. An increase in salience gives me more awareness of things going on in hyperspace. I'm assuming that salience is directly related to the filters of the mind, as psychedelics lift these filters that serotonin usually puts in place.

Exactly!
The more salient something is, the more details you notice and the more information you take in, because it's comparatively more important.

"Is this real? One said." "Does it matter? Another said."

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Understanding the change in your perception from psychedelics can be spontaneously discovered or formed from the process of taking psychedelics. I think having these experiences can strongly inspire us and change our view of our existing self-world, and universal potential at large.

Psychedelics naturally are influenced heavily on set and setting. At the core though, almost all psychedelics change visual input and acuity via in connection with the nervous system. The experience functions on the moment to moment activity and presents information in a way you haven't seen or thought of before. As if it is an entirely different dimension/environment, not of this(your) reality but of 'ours,' together in symbiosis. In other words, a 'trip' or 'voyage' to unknown, surprising realms of space that influence your life. If done correctly, it becomes seemingly obvious of how interconnected everything is and that truth is present in this very moment. The inexpressible becomes this 'knowing' and that you have seen it, what ever that is for you.

HPPD is only scientific/medical literature of how to describe/label something they simply cannot explain very well. Having these perceptual changes influences us on a daily basis, yes, but only depending on how you perceive them. Perceiving these changes negatively will bring up the idea of 'disorder.' Having changes within visual acuity actually enhances and corrects vision whereas present visuals tend to ground you and excite the senses of mere awe. It also depends on which psychoactive it is you are taking and how much.

I for one have developed visual changes from psychedelics and other drugs, particularly psilocybin and LSA. Mushrooms changed the way I perceive emotional perception and have changed my acuity, sensitivity and expression. LSA has changed my function of visual perception, too. Sometimes my peripheral vision tends to stretch, warp, flicker and move. I also experience subtle movements in objects, writing, art etc, while directly starring or looking at something. Sometimes, I see small, colorful, orb-like 'beings' drop from any given lighting and start to spin. I don't see it as a disorder, though. Rather, I see it as natural corresponding changes and upgrades to environmental status. It sure is interesting to experience while sober but has its fascinating effects even from just cannabis alone, or just before sleep. It's as if the visual plain has been stretched and you begin to see what hides between the edges. These changes seems to enhance the way I visually perceive reality and make it more enjoyable.

So you can have these changes, and depending on their severity, completely ignore it or move with it, creatively, and not be subject to panic or worry because these changes are usually not permanent, visually speaking. I also agree on the 'salient' state of being. Personally, I feel, or rather I know for my own self, that psychedelics introduce a variety of experiences depending on your awareness alone. They are catalysts for who and what you/we are.

With psychedelics comes teaching. It is important to flow and listen to these experiences.

Be one.