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JLL's perspective on DMT entities Options
 
blue lunar night
#1 Posted : 5/2/2013 1:51:21 AM

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Hi All,

Thought I'd take the liberty of reposting an excerpt from John Lash's recent email newsletter, in which he responds to a request for his take on the DMT entities. I found his explication to be thorough and useful, tho some may be confused by the references to his work, & of course not everyone will agree.


Quote:
I would define the "DMT" entities as inorganic animations of Brownian
motion. They constitute a kind of "swill" in the dema, elementary
turbulence stirred up by human attention, momentarily assuming the forms
projected upon it by human interest.

From Wikipedia:
Brownian motion or pedesis (from Greek: πήδησις Pɛɖeːsɪs "leaping"Pleased is
the presumably random moving of particles suspended in a fluid (a
liquid or a gas) resulting from their bombardment by the fast-moving
atoms or molecules in the gas or liquid. The term "Brownian motion" can
also refer to the mathematical model used to describe such random
movements, which is often called a particle theory.
In 1827, the botanist Robert Brown, looking through a microscope at
particles found in pollen grains in water, noted that the particles
moved through the water but was not able to determine the mechanisms
that caused this motion. Atoms and molecules had long been theorized as
the constituents of matter, and many decades later, Albert Einstein
published a paper in 1905 that explained in precise detail how the
motion that Brown had observed was a result of the pollen being moved by
individual water molecules. This explanation of Brownian motion served
as definitive confirmation that atoms and molecules actually exist, and
was further verified experimentally by Jean Perrin in 1908. Perrin was
awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1926 "for his work on the
discontinuous structure of matter" (Einstein had received the award five
years earlier "for his services to theoretical physics" with specific
citation of different research). The direction of the force of atomic
bombardment is constantly changing, and at different times the particle
is hit more on one side than another, leading to the seemingly random
nature of the motion. This transport phenomenon is named after Robert
Brown.

The mathematical model of Brownian motion has a few real-world
applications. For instance, Stock market fluctuations are often cited,
although Benoit Mandelbrot rejected its applicability to stock price
movements in part because these are discontinuous.[2]

Brownian motion is among the simplest of the continuous-time stochastic
(or probabilistic) processes, and it is a limit of both simpler and more
complicated stochastic processes (see random walk and Donsker's
theorem). This universality is closely related to the universality of
the normal distribution. In both cases, it is often mathematical
convenience rather than the accuracy of the models that motivates their
use. This is because Brownian motion, whose time derivative is
everywhere infinite, is an idealised approximation to actual random
physical processes, which always have a finite time scale.

The DMT entities are elementals, not organic beings, not to be confused
with the Gaian Dakinis which, although they are also not organic in the
strict sense, partake of the composition of the organic elements of the
atmosphere -- that is, atmospheric chemistry.

Composition of the livable atmosphere of the earth that supports
organic life (dry air, roughly by volume):

78.09% nitrogen
20.95% oxygen
0.93% argon
0.039% carbon dioxide , and small amounts of other gases.
Air also contains a variable amount of water vapor, on average around
1%.

The Gaian Dakinis are labile fractures in the nitrogen composite of the
livable, breathable atmosphere. These factures occur where the
life-force of the Aeon Sophia erupts due to hyper-excitation of
interactivity with human animals who observe the eruptions.

lability: a term is used to describe a relatively unstable and
transient chemical species. As a general example, if a molecule exists
in a particular conformation for a short life-time, before adopting a
lower energy conformation, the former molecular structure is said to
have 'high lability' ... The term is sometimes also used in reference to
reactivity - for example, a complex that quickly reaches equilibrium in
solution is said to be labile (with respect to that solution).

The Dakini-fractures exemplify the physical reality of what medical
scientists call "labile affect" without knowing actually that they're
talking about. I define this phenomenon as life communicating with
itself across natural boundaries of self-definition.

By contrast, the DMT entities are excitations of the dema produced by
the intensity of human observing. They might be called "demanoid",
DAY-muh-noid. Demanoid entities. Known in Cabala as elementals,
qliphoth. Cabalists, alchemists and would-be magicians who experimented
with ritual magic often encountered these same entities. Why? Because
the practices of ritual magic all involve intensification of human
attention, specifically the 1st attention, the power of observing,
repeating, calculating.

For an Aeon such as Sophia, the power of observation follows
Heisenberg's rule: the act of observing alters the process being
observed. And it goes further than mere alteration, for the application
of the power of the 1st attention of an Aeon actually produces material
effects and spontaneous events. In the GNE we observe the moments when
the Aeon Sophia applies her 1st attention to the experiment underway on
earth -- How? By attending to the moments of lunar perigee in the
constellations. But in most instances we cannot observe what she is
actually doing. At best, we may infer what she is doing.

The power of the 1st attention of a human animal contains the Aeonic
power in a minute dose, a reverse magnification or telescopic
downscaling. Thus reduced, that power is not adequate to produce
immediate material effects or alterations in ongoing processes. However,
the introduction of autogenic training (later, biofeedback technique) by
Schultz in 1932 opened a pathway toward experimentation with the
immediate material power of the 1st attention, and verification of its
effects.

Under the effects of DMT, the power of the 1st attention is momentarily
heightened to a level that human animals cannot normally reach or
sustain. The result is, the power of observation immediately plunges to
the dema level, like a sharp blade or needle puncturing a membrane
(boundary of perception). DMT trips are not telestic, so they proceed
with no preset intention to direct the faculties of heightened
awareness. Nor could an intention be sustained in the steep and sudden
shift of awarenss that DMT produces. Under this influence, the mind goes
immediately into the dema which is the elementary level of material
composition. You then observe the activity of the dema, a swill of
Brownian motion, but manifesting in the form of hyper-active troll-like
entities which are actually produced by the power of the 1st attention.

Thus DMT exhibits the occult capacity of human awareness to manifest
and modify material processes in the cosmos, at the microcosmic level.

The Gaian Dakinis appear in the subliminal zone where the Tonal borders
on the Nagual. The demanoids appear in the subsensory zone of hyle,
elementary matter. The consistent form they take is due to the
consistent tendency of the 1st attention of human animals to find order,
organization, wherever they look. Thus they appear to be the technicians
and engineers who produce this order -- and in a certain respect, they
are so. In a certain respect, a certain manner.

The "swill" of the dema has its own properties of attention, rather
like a robotic awareness or thermostatic functions, but not a living,
self-conscious attention. The demanoids are barely capable of
interactivity but the Gaian Dakinis revel in it, and invite it ardently.

The purpose of the DMT molecule is to act like a priming substance, a
chemical added to a process to mesh or coordinate different components
of the process, especially where differences of material density come
into play. Suppose that you had a model of an animal such as a mouse,
carved of soapstone, and you drop this model into a chemical solution,
say, into thin gelatine. It might just float in the gelatine, submerged.
But if there is to be some interaction between the mouse and its
chemical environment, rather than merely a state of passive suspension,
you would have to introduce a primer, a second chemical that "seats" or
situates the soapstone carving in the gelatine and allows it to behave
in certain ways, rather than just float there without animation.

DMT has the basic biological function of a primer in the swill, such
that it facilitates seating the human body into the inorganic substate
of materiality. Recall that on this planet there is a demonstration in
nature of abiogenesis: living organic processes seated within an
inorganic substrates, a matrix of inorganic chemistry, so called. This
being so, there has to be a priming substance -- lubrication if you will
-- that facilitates the seating of living organisms into the matrix of
inorganic life.

DMT serves this function, acting like a lubricant, and that is why it
saturates the human fetus up to the 7th week of gestation. In its first
weeks of formation, the human fetus must establish the initial
conditions of organic life while in close interface with the conditions
of inorganic chemistry, both within and without the organism. Once this
adaptation is accomplished, the saturation of DMT drops off sharply.

DMT remains in the organism as a vestigial chemical (concentrated in a
vestigial organ, the pineal gland) of no vast importance for
consciousness. In that respect, it has been immensely overrated. By
contrast, the Gaian Dakinis work actively with ATP, a metabolic chemical
that I would say deserves the high regard given to DMT.

The proof that DMT is not a hugely contributive chemical for heightened
awareness in the human animal could be seen in the fact that the DMT
entities cannot sustain narrative, and they are in fact antipathic to
timebound realizations of order and organization. Like cogs and springs
in the minute mechanism of a watch, they have no connection to what you
actually read on the face of the watch, the phases of linear time. They
support the mechanism of the watch but do not partake in its higher
functions.

Dee-Men-Tial

The demanoids are trolls and tekkies, pixies or pixelated dema,
fleeting figures in the swill. Elementaries, qliphoth. They cannot
instruct coherently and are incapable of sustaining narratives. They
appear to know cosmic secrets, but encountering them happens so quickly
that there is no time for them to deliver what they know. This is a
delusional effect: in fact, they have nothing to deliver. Human subjects
in the DMT trance assume they do. The closest they get to giving
instruction would be evident in baffling and paradoxical aphorisms
captured in split-second glimpses by the human mind -- the fragments of
Heraclitus, for instance. But of course, it is the human mind itself
that produces these aphorisms not the demanoids who merely provide the
stimulus for them.

The failure, drop-off or dead-end of Strassman's experiments with "the
spirit molecule" proves the point I am making here.

BTW, the subject of DMT and its effects links closely to my recent
reconnection with Graham Hancock who is currently advocating the
ayahausca experience. Of course, synthetic DMT which produces the DMT
trolls has different effects from the jungle brew.... More on this
matter in upcoming talks.
 

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SnozzleBerry
#2 Posted : 5/2/2013 2:36:38 AM

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I must say, I'm always amused by people who talk in such certainty about these phenomena.

There are a number of quotes in this piece that immediately jump out as needing citation (or at least elaboration) for such definitive claims, imo. I don't feel up to running through them all now, but for the time being I will highlight the conclusion:

Quote:
Of course, synthetic DMT which produces the DMT
trolls has different effects from the jungle brew..

Confused

Why of course? What difference exists? Why have some people reported shamans to find extracted DMT a "legitimate" experience (to say nothing of indigenous snuffs)? What is the difference between vaporized DMT entities and entities encountered on ayahuasca (I know I have encountered similar, if not identical, entities)? Does the author even understand the difference between synthesized and extracted compounds?
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universecannon
#3 Posted : 5/2/2013 4:27:02 AM



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Snozz, i haven't read the OP yet and am not familiar with Lash, but right there it just seemed like he was referring to the smoked dmt experience in general being different from ayahuasca. I don't know if he meant to come off as claiming that dmt was less 'legitimate'... maybe he just prefers aya?

Anyways, i dont really see the big deal about people saying aya and smoked dmt are different. They are very similar in some ways..but you do have the slowed down speed, duration, and the whole other dimension the vine adds to it as well..along with individual variation in how people react to/are capable of working with them. So they are very different to IME



<Ringworm>hehehe, it's all fun and games till someone loses an "I"
 
moniker
#4 Posted : 5/2/2013 5:34:45 AM

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Quote:
By contrast, the DMT entities are excitations of the dema produced by
the intensity of human observing. They might be called "demanoid",
DAY-muh-noid. Demanoid entities. Known in Cabala as elementals,
qliphoth.


Quote:
The demanoids are trolls and tekkies, pixies or pixelated dema,
fleeting figures in the swill. Elementaries, qliphoth. They cannot
instruct coherently and are incapable of sustaining narratives. They
appear to know cosmic secrets, but encountering them happens so quickly
that there is no time for them to deliver what they know. This is a
delusional effect: in fact, they have nothing to deliver.


Quote:
The failure, drop-off or dead-end of Strassman's experiments with "the
spirit molecule" proves the point I am making here.


Quote:
DMT serves this function, acting like a lubricant, and that is why it
saturates the human fetus up to the 7th week of gestation.



J.L.L is one of those guys who when they talk I just sort of shake my head in
disbelief and say to myself.....
"Wow, I don't agree with one single thing that is coming out of that person's mouth."

I can relate in some way to many authors who discuss the topic of mysticism and psychedelics
J.L.L just is not one of those for me. I have some friends that are into JLL so I have heard him speak and he sort of just comes off like a very angry and ego driven person to me.




“Music is the voice of God traveling through ten-dimensional hyperspace.”
― Michio Kaku
 
Guyomech
#5 Posted : 5/2/2013 6:36:53 AM

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My impression is that this person might have something to prove, like Martin Ball.

Some DMT users have reported similar phenomena, where the entities speak in statements that seem like empty riddles, or stay out along the very edge of vision, or even disappear when viewed too closely. But many also report meaningful interactions with them. I do resonate with parts of his description of these entities being manifestations of our attention process- that could have merit- but then he backs this up using all this arcane occult terminology to build a picture of certainty, which is the part I'm uncomfortable with. As we all know, it's wise to not universalized our own experiences.
 
mailorderdiety
#6 Posted : 5/2/2013 6:50:35 AM

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Guyomech wrote:
My impression is that this person might have something to prove, like Martin Ball.

Some DMT users have reported similar phenomena, where the entities speak in statements that seem like empty riddles, or stay out along the very edge of vision, or even disappear when viewed too closely. But many also report meaningful interactions with them. I do resonate with parts of his description of these entities being manifestations of our attention process- that could have merit- but then he backs this up using all this arcane occult terminology to build a picture of certainty, which is the part I'm uncomfortable with. As we all know, it's wise to not universalized our own experiences.

i agree with your impression. But on a side note, hope it's not seen as a derail, can you tell me about martin ball. i read some of his book and have seen some of work online. it was really interesting when i was first learning about dmt.
 
Mustelid
#7 Posted : 5/2/2013 7:41:18 AM

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I can see the difficulty some might have with something so profoundly confusing. I have frequently remind myself that my DMT experience is not THE DMT experience, it is only MY DMT experience.

 
Hyperspace Fool
#8 Posted : 5/2/2013 7:44:23 AM

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I must agree that this mishmosh of Gnosticism and rational recductionist materialism holds next to nothing for me. My experiences in this stuff are nearly 180 degrees opposite of what JLL is on about. Brownian motion? Seriously?

I have the impression that this is a man who has not had much experience in hyperspace.

That doesn't make him a bad person... just uniquely unqualified to go on and on with such certainty about things he seems to have very little experience of.

There is so much wrong with the quotes from the OP above that I don't even know where to begin. In fact, I won't bother.

musteleid wrote:
I can see the difficulty some might have with something so profoundly confusing. I have frequently remind myself that my DMT experience is not THE DMT experience, it is only MY DMT experience.

While I am in agreement that my DMT experience is not THE DMT experience... it is not simply my experience either. There are literally thousands of people who report experiences that dovetail precisely with mine. In fact, even those people who report experiences that seem TO THEM to fall outside of what I describe... I can see very well how their experiences fit neatly within my own.

Mostly it comes down to the fact that the majority of people who have used DMT and Aya are rather like extreme noobs. Only a fraction of them have ever had a breakthrough... let alone the hundreds it might take to become "familiar" with hyperspace.

Excuse me if I sound arrogant.
"Curiouser and curiouser..." ~ Alice

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." ~ Buddha
 
universecannon
#9 Posted : 5/2/2013 7:48:29 AM



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Reading through more of this, its hard to find almost anything i'd really agree with at all

mailorderdiety... your better off without hearing about it lol. If you really want to know, just google: dmt-nexus Martin Ball



<Ringworm>hehehe, it's all fun and games till someone loses an "I"
 
Mustelid
#10 Posted : 5/2/2013 8:20:23 AM

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Hyperspace Fool, I don't feel that you are being arrogant at all, and I have great respect for people who have spent a lot of time in hyperspace, I find it hard to fathom doing that myself at this point.

I find the idea of the connectedness of the experience fascinating. And there is an overabundance of people giving a definitive conclusion from just a few psychedelic experiences, I think something about the power of the experience leads to projection for many.

 
Hyperspace Fool
#11 Posted : 5/2/2013 8:34:54 AM

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Yes indeed.

It is hard to say anything about these things with absolute certainty... the astounding vastness of it all precludes such provincial thinking. Furthermore, very little of the experience of such infinities and hypercosmic things will actually language well at all.

The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao... etc.

But we shall keep trying. Love
"Curiouser and curiouser..." ~ Alice

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." ~ Buddha
 
mailorderdiety
#12 Posted : 5/2/2013 8:54:18 AM

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thanks universe... i have a enough on my plate right now and don't need more controversy. i just finished watching tom campbell's big toe and that just threw me for a loop. i need a break. I still feel the entities are real, so i'm woefully prepared to figure all this out right now
 
Global
#13 Posted : 5/2/2013 11:52:22 AM

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mailorderdiety wrote:
thanks universe... i have a enough on my plate right now and don't need more controversy. i just finished watching tom campbell's big toe and that just threw me for a loop. i need a break. I still feel the entities are real, so i'm woefully prepared to figure all this out right now


Good luck with that
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - Albert Einstein

"The Mighty One appears, the horizon shines. Atum appears on the smell of his censing, the Sunshine- god has risen in the sky, the Mansion of the pyramidion is in joy and all its inmates are assembled, a voice calls out within the shrine, shouting reverberates around the Netherworld." - Egyptian Book of the Dead

"Man fears time, but time fears the Pyramids" - 9th century Arab proverb
 
Felnik
#14 Posted : 5/2/2013 1:07:36 PM

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After reading all I can say is : Huh what the ......?
The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
Arthur C. Clarke


http://vimeo.com/32001208
 
SnozzleBerry
#15 Posted : 5/2/2013 2:29:27 PM

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universecannon wrote:
Snozz, i haven't read the OP yet and am not familiar with Lash, but right there it just seemed like he was referring to the smoked dmt experience in general being different from ayahuasca. I don't know if he meant to come off as claiming that dmt was less 'legitimate'... maybe he just prefers aya?

Anyways, i dont really see the big deal about people saying aya and smoked dmt are different.

Now that you've read it, I hope you see what I mean (I take it from your second post that you do). Smile

His claim seems, to me, far beyond "saying aya and smoked dmt are different." Having read through this, I fully expect his follow-up on aya to be a romanticization of indigenous ayahuasca use, replete with explanations of why the spirits they encounter are more than mere "Brownian motion." This is why I brought up the "legitimacy" of the vaped DMT experience (from an indigenous perspective).

I resonate fully with the likening to Martin Ball...I also found myself remembering Kent's "case against the hyperspace elves." Imo, people who have "been there," especially repeatedly, usually don't come away making ironclad statements about the total nature of the experience (not counting those with agendas/axes to grind).
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mailorderdiety
#16 Posted : 5/2/2013 2:51:45 PM

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ok i looked, i knew i shouldn't have but i did. I looked up martin ball archives here... wow, what a douche. I had read his being human book and enjoyed it and had listened to some of his entheogenic podcasts... they seemed very interesting to my novice ears. But after reading those threads it is clear what the motivation is, and it is not appealing. Thanks guys for pointing out the charlatans out there.

Btw on a side note, i've come away feeling a little disconnected from the various "truths" out there regarding what hyperspace and the elves mean(real/not real). Also the idea that we live in a simulation. Any body have any tips for feeling connected to world that seems to be possibly a construct? The theories are interesting but leave me feeling disconnected.
 
Guyomech
#17 Posted : 5/2/2013 3:08:43 PM

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Thanks for looking up Ball... I was going to find you some good Ball/douche links this morning but you spared me the trouble.

You can also do a search on the real/not real controversy. It rages on and on. I personally don't think it can be resolved as an either/or thing, and that it may even be a totally wrong question, like asking if the sky is "really" blue, or whether its just a product of how our senses work. Define "real" first, if you can.

I do think it's healthy to put forth and discuss theories about what all this hyperspace stuff means. But speaking in such certain terms is almost guaranteed to make your statements incorrect. It's important to be aware of this.
 
mailorderdiety
#18 Posted : 5/2/2013 11:57:47 PM

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just posting a follow up to feeling really disconnected after having deep experiences in hyperspace or contemplating that we are in a simulation... i just went surfing today and it was epic, the tide was so strong i drifted over a mile and ended up on the wrong side of the river i had to cross walking back. there were sting rays breeding in the river.. i didn't know and got lucky walking across a strong current. then there were sea shells of all sizes and colors... beautiful jewels.. then there was all this green, green sea grass washed up on the beach and then little tide pools that dogs were jumping in... all of this totally connected me regardless if it's a simulation/lower reality etc... whatever it is, it's amazing!

And the real/not real debate in here is one of my faves! i think asking real/not real is not the question just like your blue sky example... i love the nexus. All my philosophical conundrums are solved easy peasy.
 
Hyperspace Fool
#19 Posted : 5/4/2013 7:54:04 PM

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mailorderdiety wrote:
just posting a follow up to feeling really disconnected after having deep experiences in hyperspace or contemplating that we are in a simulation... i just went surfing today and it was epic, the tide was so strong i drifted over a mile and ended up on the wrong side of the river i had to cross walking back. there were sting rays breeding in the river.. i didn't know and got lucky walking across a strong current. then there were sea shells of all sizes and colors... beautiful jewels.. then there was all this green, green sea grass washed up on the beach and then little tide pools that dogs were jumping in... all of this totally connected me regardless if it's a simulation/lower reality etc... whatever it is, it's amazing!

And the real/not real debate in here is one of my faves! i think asking real/not real is not the question just like your blue sky example... i love the nexus. All my philosophical conundrums are solved easy peasy.

Nice to hear that you managed to reconnect... a day at the beach can do that for you. Crazy about the stingrays.

As for the real/ not real debate, it is one of our perennial favs here. A discussion that tends to go on and on here with minor pauses to switch threads. If you didn't see it, I state a good portion of my opinion on this post https://www.dmt-nexus.me...&m=452296#post452296

Basically, though... even though we often resort to the "objectively real" terminology and couch the debate in epistemological terms, this is not the real question. We tend to start from the Cartesian idea that the only thing we can prove is that we ourselves exist. Cogito ergo sum. Thus, the question is not whether entities are real per se (seeing as there is no proof that any of you are real or the material universe itself for that matter)... but rather:

Are the entities sentient beings?

This is really what we all mean when we talk about the real/ not real conundrum. The ramifications of actual non-human hyper-intelligent beings communicating directly with us are staggering. SETI spends billions in hope of finding a radio anomaly that might contain a message. If, as I believe, the entities are real (sentient) beings... this is easily the most noteworthy thing happening on the planet at this time.

It is not mere philosophy. We send robots to other heavenly bodies looking for evidence that life once existed maybe... meanwhile many of us hang out with ETs on the regular.

Something to consider.
"Curiouser and curiouser..." ~ Alice

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." ~ Buddha
 
gibran2
#20 Posted : 5/4/2013 10:36:45 PM

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Hyperspace Fool wrote:
Mostly it comes down to the fact that the majority of people who have used DMT and Aya are rather like extreme noobs. Only a fraction of them have ever had a breakthrough... let alone the hundreds it might take to become "familiar" with hyperspace.

Agreed. And then, after hundreds of breakthroughs, there is the rare new kind of breakthrough that is unlike any of the others. How can someone who has used DMT only a few times possibly have such an experience?

Regarding reality: I don’t really question myself regarding reality too much any more. There is no need for it.
gibran2 is a fictional character. Any resemblance to anyone living or dead is purely coincidental.
 
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