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The Epistemology of the Psychedelic Experience. Options
 
primordium
#1 Posted : 4/14/2013 7:53:21 PM

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Many users of psychedelics report knowledge or beliefs gained from such usage. The more common ones seem centered around "All is Love," "All is One," etc.

However, even apart from "bad trips," many so-called insights are cast aside rather quickly, if not immediately. Likewise, more paranoiac thoughts are almost universally decried as untrustworthy.

But what is the epistemology of the psychedelic experience? Why are some insights heralded by oneself and the psychedelic community while others are relegated as nonsense?
"The infinite vibratory levels, the dimensions of interconnectedness are without end." -- Alex Grey
 

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cyb
#2 Posted : 4/14/2013 8:05:23 PM

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Truths are transient...
There are no absolute, unchanging truths, only relative ones.
Please do not PM tek related questions
Reserve the right to change your mind at any given moment.
 
Global
#3 Posted : 4/14/2013 8:48:48 PM

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primordium wrote:


But what is the epistemology of the psychedelic experience? Why are some insights heralded by oneself and the psychedelic community while others are relegated as nonsense?


For one, it's a touchy and confounding subject. This conflict comes from differences in perspective IMO. Plain and simple. I agree with cyb that "truth" is relative.
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - Albert Einstein

"The Mighty One appears, the horizon shines. Atum appears on the smell of his censing, the Sunshine- god has risen in the sky, the Mansion of the pyramidion is in joy and all its inmates are assembled, a voice calls out within the shrine, shouting reverberates around the Netherworld." - Egyptian Book of the Dead

"Man fears time, but time fears the Pyramids" - 9th century Arab proverb
 
primordium
#4 Posted : 4/14/2013 9:17:56 PM

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Global wrote:
primordium wrote:


But what is the epistemology of the psychedelic experience? Why are some insights heralded by oneself and the psychedelic community while others are relegated as nonsense?


For one, it's a touchy and confounding subject. This conflict comes from differences in perspective IMO. Plain and simple. I agree with cyb that "truth" is relative.


Would this entail that "God exists" is true for one particular primate, yet not true for another specific primate, all without an overarching fact of the matter?

(This statement is specially chosen since an affirmation of theism seems common among psychedelic users.)
"The infinite vibratory levels, the dimensions of interconnectedness are without end." -- Alex Grey
 
Enoon
#5 Posted : 4/14/2013 10:25:16 PM

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I can only speak personally but for me the lessons I accept more redily are the ones that have obvious positive influence on me. The ones I take time to accept are those that have positive influence on me but it's not quite so obvious. And the ones I don't accept are those that in no way that I look at them have any positie effect on me whatsoever.
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primordium
#6 Posted : 4/14/2013 10:30:27 PM

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Enoon wrote:
I can only speak personally but for me the lessons I accept more redily are the ones that have obvious positive influence on me. The ones I take time to accept are those that have positive influence on me but it's not quite so obvious. And the ones I don't accept are those that in no way that I look at them have any positie effect on me whatsoever.


I think you succinctly explained the process most of us use.

However, in more sober and reflective moments I worry, "Wait, is this all bullshit and I just facilely accept the insights that form a more life-affirming, happiness-inducing worldview?"
"The infinite vibratory levels, the dimensions of interconnectedness are without end." -- Alex Grey
 
Global
#7 Posted : 4/14/2013 10:35:56 PM

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primordium wrote:
Global wrote:
primordium wrote:


But what is the epistemology of the psychedelic experience? Why are some insights heralded by oneself and the psychedelic community while others are relegated as nonsense?


For one, it's a touchy and confounding subject. This conflict comes from differences in perspective IMO. Plain and simple. I agree with cyb that "truth" is relative.


Would this entail that "God exists" is true for one particular primate, yet not true for another specific primate, all without an overarching fact of the matter?

(This statement is specially chosen since an affirmation of theism seems common among psychedelic users.)


The concept of relativistic thinking is that thing aren't only either one way or another. IMO it isn't the case that "God does exist or God does not exist". It's a false binary.
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - Albert Einstein

"The Mighty One appears, the horizon shines. Atum appears on the smell of his censing, the Sunshine- god has risen in the sky, the Mansion of the pyramidion is in joy and all its inmates are assembled, a voice calls out within the shrine, shouting reverberates around the Netherworld." - Egyptian Book of the Dead

"Man fears time, but time fears the Pyramids" - 9th century Arab proverb
 
#8 Posted : 4/14/2013 10:44:24 PM
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As was said above, truth seems to be relative to the individual. Although the epistemology of the psychedelic experience is at such a variance due to the individual themselves, the setting, etc. Then you have a bunch of other variables to consider suxh as dosage, substance, intent, etc. Those things aside, I believe that there IS a fundamental underlying thread to such experiences, but due to the experiences infinite nature coupled with all the above lends to an ever-changing truth/knowledge that is nearly impossible to pin down. Also, everyone on this path is a a different point. Like I said though, I encounter a common thread through all my psychedelic experiences and especially dmt.

We and everything in the phenomenal world is but of one perceptual field of awareness. We and everything in the universe are completely engrossed in this awareness. Like one big thought. Infinite in nature and infinite ways to realize it.



 
primordium
#9 Posted : 4/14/2013 11:16:56 PM

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Global wrote:
primordium wrote:
Global wrote:
primordium wrote:


But what is the epistemology of the psychedelic experience? Why are some insights heralded by oneself and the psychedelic community while others are relegated as nonsense?


For one, it's a touchy and confounding subject. This conflict comes from differences in perspective IMO. Plain and simple. I agree with cyb that "truth" is relative.


Would this entail that "God exists" is true for one particular primate, yet not true for another specific primate, all without an overarching fact of the matter?

(This statement is specially chosen since an affirmation of theism seems common among psychedelic users.)


The concept of relativistic thinking is that thing aren't only either one way or another. IMO it isn't the case that "God does exist or God does not exist". It's a false binary.


Is there a "relativism" about how many fingers you have?
"The infinite vibratory levels, the dimensions of interconnectedness are without end." -- Alex Grey
 
Mr.Peabody
#10 Posted : 4/14/2013 11:52:19 PM

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I have a similar view to Enoon. I think people are drawn to the goodness. This can be seen in almost any actions a person takes, they do something to feel better, be better, live better.

One may argue, what about self-destructive behavior? Often this comes from a short circuit in their logic.The person wants the short term pleasure and forgets about the downside (like someone addicted to cocaine, for example). The intent is the same, they are doing something they want.

I can't think of a sane instance of a person about to do something saying,"this is going to suck, and has no benefits at all, so I really want to do it." One more example that a Buddhist leader said in a TED talk (I can't remember his name), that completely blew me away. A person that commits suicide doesn't do it to make things worse. They see it as the only way to end their suffering. They are going towards something they unfortunately see as good, as a better situation for them.

So, I really think we are drawn to the good and repelled from the bad. There are plenty of things in life that are grey and hard to make out, but also there are plenty of things that are easy to see.

Honestly for me, and this may not be very well liked, I just try to have a good time. I'll do mushrooms, DMT, mescaline, whatever and my only intent any more is to have fun, enjoy myself, and take in the sights. I don't do this to avoid being deep, to avoid gaining insights or anything. It just works for me. I've found everything else just works itself out. I still gain useful ideas and insights. I'm drawn to the good.
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SKA
#11 Posted : 4/15/2013 4:47:36 PM
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Ah the infamous paradoxical question of Subjective Truths &
Objective truths, confusingly interwoven & hard to tell apart.
This paradox will NOT leave me alone; Some pleasantly present,
sometimes downright disphoric & hellish.... I must say that
I experienced the use of Psychedelics to hugely magnify my
awareness of that paradox.



primordium wrote:

Is there a "relativism" about how many fingers you have?


Allthough not common, there ARE people with 11, 12 or even
13 fingers..... So, considering this, I guess you could say
Relativism IS applicable to that question. Smile

It's quite human to think of questions as yes or no propositions...Binairy like
someone here said before. They think a question can have only 1 right answer,
but as you see your question about the fingers shows there are more right answers
than just 1. Most people have 10 fingers so "10" would be a right answer, but as I
explained before "11" would ALSO be a right answer. As "12" and "13" would be right too.

And allthough they're all right answers, any of these answers alone would not be a completely truthfull answer by itself, but just 1 part of the composition of Truth.
I guess the best possible answer to your question would be:

Humans typically have 10 fingers, but some have 11, 12, 13 (etc) fingers.
A non-binairy, relativist answer to your question.
 
primordium
#12 Posted : 4/15/2013 6:24:19 PM

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No relativism there, unless you twist the question into a pretzel and then add salt.

I asked him, an individual, if there was a fact of the matter about how many fingers he has. Introducing the vast multitude of humans, and then articulating the diversity among them, does nothing to introduce relativism.

Does he have 10 or not? The law of excluded middle reigns.

Furthermore, introducing a range of anatomically acceptable numbers does nothing to actually shred objective truth; there is still a fact of the matter about that specific range and about the count for each individual.

Relativism qua relativism seems entirely incoherent (and perhaps poorly understood even by its proponents).
"The infinite vibratory levels, the dimensions of interconnectedness are without end." -- Alex Grey
 
DeDao
#13 Posted : 4/15/2013 6:39:35 PM

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I do agree with Primordium. I do feel that there are universal messages that we acquire from the experience.

Although, beyond that, are of course personal truths like UC is saying.

They are one and the same.

Tricky subject.
"Think more than you speak"
"How do you get rid of the pain of having pain in the first place? You get rid of expectations"
"You are everything that is. Open yourself to the love and understanding that is available."
"To see God, you have to have met the Devil."
"When you know how to listen, everyone becomes a guru."
" One time, I didn't do anything, and it was so empty... Almost as if I wasn't doing anything. Then I wrote about it. It was fulfilling."
 
joedirt
#14 Posted : 4/15/2013 6:41:54 PM

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Truths hold up under scrutiny to the sober mind.
Paranoid thoughts do not.

Beyond that though we can also examine the "we are all one" insights. This particular one is actually quite easy to verify in the objective universe as well. What makes psychedelics so interesting is their ability to on occasion allow one to feel everything and be everything not just intellectually understand it.

Peace
If your religion, faith, devotion, or self proclaimed spirituality is not directly leading to an increase in kindness, empathy, compassion and tolerance for others then you have been misled.
 
joedirt
#15 Posted : 4/15/2013 6:50:14 PM

Not I

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BTW.
Truth is binary.
It either is or it isn't.
There is no relative truth.

There are however relative degrees of perceiving the truth. That is for sure, but the truth is the truth...and a lie is a lie. No middle ground here.
If your religion, faith, devotion, or self proclaimed spirituality is not directly leading to an increase in kindness, empathy, compassion and tolerance for others then you have been misled.
 
primordium
#16 Posted : 4/15/2013 8:02:39 PM

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joedirt wrote:
There are however relative degrees of perceiving the truth.


Thumbs up
"The infinite vibratory levels, the dimensions of interconnectedness are without end." -- Alex Grey
 
Parshvik Chintan
#17 Posted : 4/15/2013 11:09:27 PM

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we often mistake mutual subjectivity for objectivity.
0 = -∞ + ∞
I and I wrote:
part of the reason these things are so difficult to talk about, is because to discuss something you must reduce it to a concept.

but when you try to discuss something that can't be reduced to a concept, you will find that even "something that can't be reduced to a concept" is, in and of itself, a concept


those are three prominent ones i managed to write down before they faded out of this furless ape brain of mine.
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Global
#18 Posted : 4/15/2013 11:31:33 PM

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My fingers could be viewed as relative in the sense that I have a lot compared to those with less fingers and "a small amount" compared to those with more than 10.
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - Albert Einstein

"The Mighty One appears, the horizon shines. Atum appears on the smell of his censing, the Sunshine- god has risen in the sky, the Mansion of the pyramidion is in joy and all its inmates are assembled, a voice calls out within the shrine, shouting reverberates around the Netherworld." - Egyptian Book of the Dead

"Man fears time, but time fears the Pyramids" - 9th century Arab proverb
 
joedirt
#19 Posted : 4/15/2013 11:39:41 PM

Not I

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Parshvik Chintan wrote:
we often mistake mutual subjectivity for objectivity.
0 = -∞ + ∞


False.

infinity and -infinity are not equal to zero.
And furthermore infinity and -infinity are not equal to each other.


If your religion, faith, devotion, or self proclaimed spirituality is not directly leading to an increase in kindness, empathy, compassion and tolerance for others then you have been misled.
 
joedirt
#20 Posted : 4/15/2013 11:50:15 PM

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Global wrote:
My fingers could be viewed as relative in the sense that I have a lot compared to those with less fingers and "a small amount" compared to those with more than 10.


I don't really see much in the way of relative truth here. I do however see how one truth can be compared relatively to another truth, but each truth (or false) is itself a binary question. Possible questions that can be asked in a fashion to illicit a true or false response (around what you wrote) are:

Does Global have more fingers than people with less than 10 fingers? -> Binary
Does Global have less fingers than people with less than 10 fingers? -> Binary

Does Global have less fingers than people with more than 10 fingers? -> Binary
Does Global have more fingers than people with more than 10 fingers? -> Binary

Does Global have the same number of fingers as people with 10 fingers? -> Binary

etc.
If your religion, faith, devotion, or self proclaimed spirituality is not directly leading to an increase in kindness, empathy, compassion and tolerance for others then you have been misled.
 
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