Since I only recently joined, I am prohibited from commenting on the thread that actually generated this response. That thread is located here: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=39439 .

First, it is important--in a more political vein--to recapture the word "religion"--cf. Alex Grey, http://www.maps.org/videos/source/video_grey.html . That is, be religious and be proud!

For those that are failing to recognize the worth--the value--of religious traditions, then you are most likely simply being myopic. In other words, if "religion" sounds like a bad word to you, then you are being insufficiently appreciative.

The most lambasted religion seems to be Christianity. Nonetheless, its traditions are ennobling. Consider the virtues that are emphasized (i.e., habits leading toward holiness and unity with God). Consider the liturgy (i.e., a weekly gathering to unify the group and receive transcendent Truth as one). To enter a sacred space like that as a community, once a week, is a custom that rarely seems emphasized by the "spiritual" persons I've encountered. Consider the church itself; to adorn a building with stained-glass windows, with pews to genuflect and kneel, with images of winged beings, is the outcome of mystic encounters and practical experimentation (to recreate Divine encounters). Such treasures should not be lightly cast aside.

The sacramental mysteries of Catholicism that I was initiated into are, to put it crudely, psychedelic. "Reconciliation," for instance, focuses one's attention on one's sins. What is sin? The disordered, disharmonious soul which once again must re-align toward God's Will. If you've ingested the "moral viagra" that psychedelics are, then you too have confronted your own inadequacies (furthermore, you too have seen the growth that can emerge from such awareness). Certainly we hope for a sacramental practice like Reconciliation to be embedded in a viable society, don't we?

Or consider the Catholic Church's canon of saints. Have you read St. Catherine of Siena? Have you read the Church Fathers? These men and women are celebrated, traditionally and without concealment, for rising above materiality and being graced with the oneness of God. It's all laid bare by Christian denominations and celebrated, using terms like "theosis" or "divinization."

If we either (1) remove ourselves from these traditions or even worse (2) publicly disparage them, then our communities become increasingly disconnected from tried-and-true customs that forge connections between we primates and Divine realities. Much like it is naive to create a new society that forsakes pre-established traditions (i.e., sui generis utopias like Communism), it is naive to be "spiritual" without first being religious.

To properly order our souls and our communities, we need social practices that unite us in virtue and in God. We need, in other words, organized religions that carry forth traditions of Light to share with oncoming generations; we need organized religions that prize and build upon preceding mystics and spiritual customs.

Is any institution faultness? No. These are material, historical processes--they certainly do not imitate Goodness perfectly. But neither do I. And neither do you.

P.S. For a more tangible analysis of the benefit of "organized religion," consider the data on how much charity is produced by such organizations (e.g., the amount of food distributed during Thanksgiving); it far outpaces individuals. Sometimes giving canned items to a food drive is better than eating 400MG of Mescaline.

do you really want to follow something else to live your life?
the catolic church is the biggest and wealthest religion in the world.
they travele from country to country preaching peace.

yet they spend non of their profits on world hunger.

what are they doing with that money?

I follow the directions on the bottle of Robitussin. Seems to help.

That is, we rely on external resources to learn and gain competence. We follow our teachers, doctors, saints, etc. Obviously, we should do so critically. Nonetheless, it seems not only impossible but also a handicap to ignore such assistance.

As to your other points, go to any local Catholic Church and ask for help with this month's rent. Then tell me they won't help you.

But I am truly astonished that you claimed the Catholic Church is divorced from charitable giving. You are aware of Catholic orphanages, schools, etc.?

http://www.businessweek....olic-church-how-it-works

directions on bottles are realy good to understand oneself.

This is what i don't get about Christianity (or any religion), and i don't mean to offend but this question often enters my mind: Why worship Jesus Christ as a "God" and not, say, a fireman for saving a bunch of people in a fire or a shaman that cures people like Jesus did?

Imo religions try to portray "God" in a restricted manner by introducing elements of worship of lower manifestations.

My mom and one of my good friends are Christians and i don't judge anyone for their beliefs, but i like to try and figure things out and ask questions.

But i would categorize myself as somewhat religious, somewhat worshiping (or appreciating deeply) plant teachers that give me direct experience that i can physically see both the experience and the plant teacher.

"It's not a sin to question tradition, it's a sin to be afraid to be afraid to" - Bill Donahue

To each their own.

My personal aversion to organized religions are numerous, first and foremost I do not believe in the necessity of a ''middle man" between myself and the mysteries of the universe. My direct experience is more valuable to me than the ideas of others.

I also have a strong dislike of the lack of mystery and room for discovery in all of the religions that I have studied. The doctorines are never uncertain, they are always so sure that they have the answers. Every year our understanding of the world around us changes, sometimes completely reversing. Any organization that claims to have the truth is frankly delusional.

We can't objectively prove anything... All that we can measure is filtered through the observer. This has led me to become an agnostic not just of a diety, but all things.


As far as the OPs statements about the necessity of organizations to facilitate community, spirituality, etc... This is just false

As for the rest of your post, I agree that it would be an advancement of basic humanity to be more charitable. This can be easily accomplished outside of church. Hold the door for the person behind you, say please and thank you, these are good starts

Religious institutions are an extension of society. To have a mystical experience is about the most anti-social experience one can have where the mind is focused entirely on the Self, and not what society wants (a moment of transcendence away from the ego - the "stern parent" to see that you tend to societies needs when your real parents/authority figures aren't around).

Yeah EH HEE YEAH!

"But I am truly astonished that you claimed the Catholic Church is divorced from charitable giving. You are aware of Catholic orphanages, schools, etc.?"

What an intelligent reply. Did you go to catholic school?

The Catholic church is a pile of shit upon this earth in my opinion. People can enjoy their delusions about what they would like to imagine it to be. Not me. I have seen the damage it does to people.

You are linking too much to the word religion. It is a term that many indigenous peoples do not accept as a decription for their spiritual paradigm. Who are you to say that others are religious?

Dont take terms from the other side of the world and apply it to paradigms from entirely different cultures who dont have that term.

Catholic church murdered more people than the Nazis.
Instigated more genocide.
More oppression.
More lies.
More racism.
Destroyed more peoples link to their own past than any other organizaton I can think of.

Sorry but this is reality. Accept it and learn to follw the true teaching of christ if that is your path or just live in the delusions of the catholic church.

This has nothing to do with Christains. It has to do with the Catholic Church. There is a difference.

Religion is unimportant.
It's the ritual, in my opinion, that is what people really want. The actual dogma is largely irrelevant. That's why you have thousands of different dogmas, but most religions all follow a pretty similar pattern.

The ensemble, congregation, or tribe all gathers together to perform rituals (again, the specifics are unimportant) as a group. These usually involve singing or speaking together (singing hymns, prayers, or chants), or all doing the same action one after another (taking communion, for example). Certain days of the year are marked out as 'special' that people can use to mark the passage of time.

Religion is mostly about bringing people together, unifying the group and cementing social bonds. We are social creatures and want to belong to a group: the larger the group, the more powerful we are.

Now, I have no problem with this, the issue is that almost inevitably, the group runs into another tribe, and the other big part of human nature takes over: the us-vs.-them instinct.
That's why a lot of religions seem to have clauses about killing nonbelievers, and even the ones that don't (consider washed-out, American Christianity) still are used to justify segregation and hate. (Anti-gay-rights people, I'm looking at you)

You see it even here, in The Nexus. One of the things a lot of us do, and advice that some of us give to newcomers to DMT (I was given this advice, and I give it now myself) is to ritualized the act of smoking the spice, or drinking the Ayahuasca. We mediate, fast and prepare our surroundings, all in the interest of creating a good 'set and setting,' but then, isn't that what any ritual does?

Yeah that's true, i was just using Christianity as an example for all relgions.



I agree 100%

Hitler was raised catholic...

I'm definitely thinking like you about religion and mystical experience(or altering consciousness) but I'm also wondering what's going on in some religious group rituals...I mean people looks like in trance or mad while together in religious rituals or even in music festivals,concerts maybe.Actually these are much like dissolving the ego or arising of the unconscious but seems near to psychedelic experience somehow.Maybe it's a result of necessity,searching without quit from society,a little society in society but a social thing after all.

When this kind of thing comes up I like to remind myself that following the status quo is ignorant since much of what we know to be true today, history will prove to be wrong.

My favorite icon from the catholic theology is Thomas the Apostle. Why? He was a doubter and a skeptic. And It was because of his lack of faith that he became the only person (At least in Catholic theology) to touch the face of God.

"Thomas the Apostle, a disciple of Jesus who doubted Jesus' resurrection and demanded to feel Jesus' wounds before being convinced (John 20:24-29). After seeing Jesus alive and being offered the opportunity to touch his wounds, according to the author of the Gospel of John, Thomas then professed his faith in Jesus. "

Ein Sof,

I completely relate to what you say about community ritual, about surrounding yourself with transcendental iconography, etc. that's all good stuff. But there are many issues with your statements about the positive aspects of organized religion. For starters, you need to remember that churches are run by flawed human beings whose agendas usually take a front seat. American churches are exempt from taxes on the grounds of being an apolitical asset to society, yet many churches openly preach prejudice and forcefully point their congregations toward voting a particular way. These individuals cheat, steal, rape children. You speak of these institutions in an idealized sense, and they simply are not that way.

Religious schools discourage scientific exploration because it makes the holy books look silly. This practice is widespread. Your comment about attending but being skeptical, questioning- you must realize that an attitude like that is absolutely unwelcome in a church. You must at bare minimum make the appearance of buying the whole thing, hook line and sinker. That's pretty much a given. They call it "faith".

So we critical thinkers have issues with these things. Are there churches that are exceptions to this? Of course, many. But the huge prevalence of backward, selfish and even downright horrible stuff perpetrated by churches makes religion a thing that, by definition, is not for everybody.

Today we have a counterculture where we can bond as a community over music, art, hallucinogens, fine homegrown organic food. It's not ritualized in the same sense that churches are: it's more organic, more grassroots, more personal. And yes, spiritual. If you recognize the way that we are all joined together as one, every act is of a spiritual nature to some degree.

I caught you within the time frame called The Internet.
I did it no matter how you look upon it, I am there.

Holy hell...the single thread that could make my head crack. Not touching this BS with a ten foot pole beacasue its not even worthy making an opposing view point to the OP.

Oh dear, another religious thread on the verge of going out of hand. I'm locking this one down before it get south.


Kind regards,

The Traveler