How long must one not imbibe methadone prior to embarking on an aya journey. I am an intractable chronic pain patient and very much want to experience the ayajuasca plant teachers. I have very much enjoyed DMT/spice but never tried the ayajuasca. The smell of spice is quite unique

I have read before about people using Ayahuasca as a way to gradually reduce their dose of methadone without any conflicts.

A quick google came up with this thread from bluelight, and as far as I can read there are no experiences of very negative interaction there either. Searching around in my "library" for the pharmacology of these drugs I find no dangerous interactions to my knowledge as µ-opioid-agonists and NMDA-antagonists don't really crash much with RIMAs, except creating a stronger sedation and a bit of that psychedelic opiate twist, if you even still get/notice that, though it can get strongly amplified by Ayahuasca.

Conflicts with dieta and integration however. Take that from a good ol' tranqualizer addict who nearly fucked up his whole life by playing too much and just ask if you want to try different treatment methods - I know lots that can be more permanent and drug-free, unless you had surgery...

I personally would be very hesitant to take a MAOI with methadone; some opioids have serotonin reuptake inhibiting properties which can make the risk of serotonin syndrome higher than with some other opioids/opiates.Methadone has mild SRI properties independant of its mu and NMDA effects.

I drank cappi tea while on 40mg methadone and got very nauseous. Threw up several times. Although I can't say for sure if it was from the 'done or from poor diet, or both.

I would personally use kratom to wean yourself off the methadone, then maybe drink aya after the acute withdrawals are over.

My first journey away from methadone has been down the Kambo road. This defensive tree frog who hails from the rain forest lives hand in hand in the land of Cappi. The medicine is collected on a stick while the frog is tied and provoked but not harmed. The very top layer of the skin is burned with a hot stick in the spots where one will apply the venom paste This has been all about the purge and a reset. I believe there are some mild MU opoid effects for a few minutes, then the body takes up the venom/medicine through the lymphatic system. One feels the kambo working its yang healing. Have been from 90 mg to nothing for 4 days and now at ten-twenty mg's per day. Healing crisis precipitated by four Kambo sessions.One Kambo Session per day
Am not experiencing the deep withdrawals from habituation to methadone that I have come to expect as an opiod dependent pain paitient. No leg cramps or the feeling that I cannot stand one more minute...can handle the next hour and what choices may come. Old fusion pain is reasonably tolerated. Hot and cold sweats and diarreah prominently color the picture.
I have a feeling cappi and chacuna would be helpful but am interested in Mimosa Hostilis and syrian rue would be of help with less mess. Any thoughts about the use of Syrian Rue here? Hopefully my language is appropriate. Feedback most welcome.

I have a similar question. Does anyone have experience with suboxone(buprenorphine and naloxone)and MAOIs like harmaline?

I plan on brewing some ayahuasca very soon and i'm wondering if i would need to clear the suboxone out of my system first. This may be a little difficult currently as it is built up in my system due to the long half life and daily usage. I've been off of opiates for almost 3 months and i'm feeling great, but i haven't fully tapered off of the suboxone. I have read in a couple places that suboxone does not interact very dramatically with ayahuasca but the sources were not here on the nexus.

Anyone here have any experience with the combination?

Just wanted to say that I have read all the sections and find the attitude and safety areas to be sensible.I am not,and I want to reiterate that, advising anyone to proceed with kambo experience without engaging in your own research and careful consideration to you as a person. This is not a one size fits all recipe. I find especially prescient the section on reintegration . Is pharmahuasca a different concern, in terms of the MAOI's question? Always one should consider starting very low especially where there are multiple issues or concerns or consider putting off ones experiences for another time.

None of this conversation is true in the concensus reality and is written as a question outside of proscribed reality.

One of the worst experiences/trips of my life occurred from taking Suboxone after being on methadone for months. I had waited 2 days for the methadone to get out of my system before taking the Suboxone, but apparently that wasn't long enough.

I was thrown into the worst withdrawals I had ever experienced It was extremely unpleasant to say the least.

Hopefully methadone is in the process of being phased out in favor of Suboxone/Subutex. I've known people who have been strung out on methadone for 20 years. In a lot of cases methadone clinics resemble government sanctioned dope houses IMO.

methadone seems to linger in the system longer than other opiates. Had a friend fail a UA 2 1/2 weeks after taking some methadone. The results showed the methadone still in his system. Strange.

I've never been on methadone. Just the suboxone. And while I understand that it can be used as a crutch, i do beleive it has been a miracle in my life. I'm personally weening myself down and right now I can get by on about 1/4 to half of a strip each day. I'm trying to work myself down to where I can come off it without any discomfort.

The biggest hurdle has been getting off the daily oxycodone/oxymorphone/hydromorphone regimen. I was up to over 200 mg per day only a few months ago. I feel pretty good about staying away from the stuff as I have basically elimated any and all exposure to those chemicals.

But i'm not out of the woodwork just yet! Trying to give my brain a little time to heal.

I've looked into it a bit more since yesterday and i can't really find anything about negative interaction between MAOI's and Suboxone.

keep it goin moment...kickin ass so far!

I once attempted (long ago) to re-start a naltrexone treatment 3 days after wrapping up a pretty brief heroin binge, and was treated to the same experience - a nightmarish and horribly painful 48 hour withdrawal. As has been mentioned, methadone lingers much longer in the system than does heroin, so I'm not at all surprised by your story.

Thanks, Spire. Appreciate the encouragement!

Heres a good review article on the subject of opioids/opiates and MAOIs/serotonin effects:


http://jvsmedicscorner.c...anaesthesia%20Review.pdf

From this it would seem that inhibition of MAOI per se is not problematic with buprenorphine in terms of serotoninergic effects but its essential to look a little deeper if one is thinking of using harmala alkaloids with buprenorphine, and methadone for that matter.The metabolism of both buprenorphine and methadone is to a significant degree brought about by Cytochrome P450 enzymes, primarily C3A4 which is inhibited by harmala alkaloids resulting in reduced processing of both bupe and methadone if taken with either.

The half life of methadone also varies between its isomers and effectively also if its been used regularly as it tends to accumulate in the lipids in the body; typically a racemic mix is used with a half-life of a single dose varying from 15-60 hours, depending on individual make-up.

I detoxed after reducing down to 5mgs daily of methadone and hurt for 2 months afterwards , dodgy guts, intense cravings and the like but managed to stay clean for 2 years. I didnt have too bad a time changing from 20mgs of methadone with a 24 hour break onto 8mg then 16mg subutex. Methadone is nasty stuff but i guess its better than iv-ing dirty brown heroin.

Ive always been quite ashamed of the years i wasted on my habit , not least because i was ostracized by some circles of friends(?) and have quite a few regrets on blown chances.

Its nice to see some helpful impartial advice here. I guess its something i have come expect from this community.

Good luck to everyone who is trying to kick the (nasty) meds

Subutex doesnt contain naloxone which is an opioid inverse agonist. The clinic I went to only had Suboxone, which contains naloxone. It's the naloxone which can cause immediate withdrawals
if you still have opioids on your receptors.

That's why if you've ever overdosed and they give you a shot of naloxone, yiou wake up in hell with horrible withdrawals!


The good thing about naloxone is that you can't get high while taking it....which obviously helps with getting off of heroin in my case.

[quote=RayTracer]Subutex doesnt contain naloxone which is an opioid inverse agonist. The clinic I went to only had Suboxone, which contains naloxone. It's the naloxone which can cause immediate withdrawals
if you still have opioids on your receptors.

/quote]

yes i think that was why my change over wasnt too traumatic.I believe Subutex (buprenorphine without the naloxone ?) is a partial opiate antagonist and therefore if taken in larger doses can still rip the opiates from your receptors and also act as a blocker. One particularly nasty experience was when i stopped quite a large daily dose of heroin to the subs without waiting long enough. I felt worse! I then thought i would take more subs to help alleviate the problem and i felt even worse! But it all ended ok in the end.

I've never actually had the naloxone cause w/d symptoms. I had tried suboxone several times prior to actually quitting the opiates and i would basically wait until the first signs of physical withdrawal and then take the suboxone. Sometimes this was as early as 12 hours after my last dose. I was never punished for taking the suboxone too soon but i've heard alot of other people talk about this problem. I never really got into heroin back in the day when alot of "friends" got pulled into that nightmare, but of course i let myself slip into the pharmies. Mainly this was due to the constant exposure as i never really felt that compelled to seek these drugs out myself(at first). At times i've even stayed totally clean from opiates for months at a time, only to have someone come around with something and put it in front of my face. I have terrible self control with opiates. It has been a godsend to find the suboxone treatment program! Such a great drug for detoxing off opiates. With the super long half life it makes it basically worthless to try to get high on pills. If you've been taking daily suboxone then it would take atleast a few days off the boxers before you would even experience noticeable effects from pills. That definitely helps when you have cravings because you know damn well that you aren't getting high, and attempting to is equivalent to flushing your cash down the toilet. Considering pharmaceutical opiates are going anywhere from 50 cents to over a dollar per mg, its really not worth the effort even with the worst of cravings!

Keep up the good fight Momentoftruth! I agree that buprenorphine is a godsend for opiate addicts. I really hope that methadone goes the way of the dodo bird.

Methadone aka liquid handcuffs is such a nightmare. The worst kick of my life was the time I jumped off of done at 60mg. I couldn't Sleep right for a month. God forbid you get arrested and go to jail on A
high dose of that stuff

I transitioned off of subuxone with out too much trouble, but I wasn't on it long. A friend of mine was on it for over a year and even though he titrated down to 2mg a day, he had a pretty difficult time getting off.

The last time I kicked I just went cold turkey, but sometimes that's not an option due to responsibilities etc. I was lucky to have the time and place to do it without interruptions.

It's now been 4 months and I feel great I really hope and pray that this time it's for good. Spice has helped me to see the beauty and joy in life. It's the complete opposite of numbing myself.

[]Deace