So I was googling a quote yesterday for another thread amd came across this term "Phanerothyme". I didn't know what it meant, so as I always do with these sorts of things, I googled some more, and came across this essay:

Phanerothyme: A Western Approach to the Religious Use of Psychochemicals

On the whole I thought it was a well articulated essay, informative, and yet at the same time very divisive and judgemental. It clearly carries that Protestant mindset that Spirituality and fun have no cross over, and that there is only one way to reach these states with these substances. It got me thinking.

While it puts forward a solid protocol which the author finds rewarding, he does not seem to grasp that this is only one of many ways to use these substances, and seems to hold him self aloof from the crowd, which, to my mind is quite an unenlightened stance to be taking.

I used to take psychedelics as a recreational tool, so maybe this is why his preaching irritated me. I know people who still take them in this manner, and I do not judge unless I think they are actually being dangerous. I find it hard to use Psychs in a purely 'recreational' manner any more, because I have been illumunated by the possibilities of these substances - this was after a very baffling and confusing experience on LSD several years back where I glimpsed my first 'peak behind the veil' - purely by accident.

That day changed a lot for me, and maybe I would not be on this path if it was not for that frosty afternoon. So, it was unstructured, so i was shaken for some time after the experience, so I felt scared and alone for the rest of the trip - SO WHAT?! It was ultimately a very good thing that re-kindled my otherwise failing relationship with God. Sometimes the substances and mind states they unlock, can give us the push we need to follow our own spiritual path, and seek our own routes to the same goal.

While I agree we should look towards the traditional for a framework of how these things should work, I believe that our way must also be adapted to not only the more traditional religious paradigms, but also to those who are not actively seeking a 'God' or 'Higher self' - for some greater awareness and a change of perspective is all that is needed to function that bit better on a day to day basis.

Who are we, or the author, to judge any singular person??? Who is he to suggest that this is the only way to respectfully use these compounds?

"Judge not lest ye be judged / For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Matthew 7.2

Phanerothyme... I think I'll stick to Psychedelic thanks... I would be very interested to see what he has to think about DMT, seeing as he considers visual hallucinations to be 'undesirable':

" The test is not how magnificent the visions, but rather how clear is the understanding obtained, and the test of clarity is its applicability to the decisions of daily life."

What if the visions are magnificent AND the insight and applicability are there? What if one thoroughly enjoyed the experience? Is there no recreation to be had in this "sober" practise?

This turned into a bit of a rant, and for that I'm sorry, as you can see this article both fascinated me and ruffled my feathers Any thoughts on this matter will be gratefully recieved.

I really don't like people who say what is the correct way to use some substance for some goal(religious in this case).
In the end they just more often than not, think that they know more than they actually do. This person who wrote that page definately seems to be one of those people and I think you are putting too much attention to his personal views on the matter(which he might think are "the truth"( how many of these you see even on the nexus anyway)). Well of course it's not good to preach around telling people how to use substances, but well, I guess it's better to contact that person in case something's buggin you about the post.



In the end we'll all walk our own paths which are all one in a trillion.
Even if some will practice some other people's advice/methods for a while, we will all end up walking our own way.

Maybe I should take my issues with the article to the author, but I also wanted to share the idea and get other people's ideas on this. After all, I would get a fairly biased set of answers if I were to speak to him / her, where as I would get a wide range of views from you fine people

I'm not sure I made my intentions clear for this thread though, I kind of derailed myself . What i really wanted to know is how people's own religious backgrounds have tied in with their 'religious experiences' with the molecule, and any other molecule come to think of it.

For me, large chunks of Christianity seem obsolete or trivial when trying to relate to or integrate the experiences I have had. For instance, one of my first experiences I was thrust into the presence of a giant gold Thai looking Buddha with these little gnome guys showing him to me in a very solemn, yet odd dance. Why? What did that have to do with my Church of England upbringing?! Nothing! It did lead me to investigate meditation and integrate that into my Spice explorations though, so it was certainly a useful (invaluable even) experience that has helped me progress much further. My psychedelic experiences have taken me further from organised religion, and closer to my own 'true' spirituality, which for me has been infinitely more rewarding. I find it hard to reconcile the two, and yet the author seems to have done so with ease.

I would love it if people involved with or who have experienced UDV / Santo D'aime (or any other psychedelic based faith group) would chime in as I feel like being able to reconcile what I have been taught with what I have experienced would be an asset. I am always reading, following my own intuition, trying out different things if they seem appropriate, but it can be difficult to filter out the crap and keep the gold.

How does this framework help you integrate your experiences? What role do the elders / priests play in this? And how do you feel this is a 'superior' way to solo experimentation and growth?

I do believe DMT is a sacrament, and of course learning the best possible way for me to use it is fairly high on the agenda for me.

Yeah I think there's no religion what so ever that will help with integrating the DMT experience. I think it's a whole religion of it's own that one builds himself through deep explorations that make one cry, fear, love and laugh. And just as mystery of life, it's in my experience impossible to explain in words. It's only something that can be witnessed, not understood. But maybe understanding it is not impossible at some point, who knows... In general, I think religion is something that is best to "build" oneself through own experiences of life and that it's not at least my way to follow anyone elses way of religion, even if it's old and millions follow that path.

I would LOVE to think that I could at some point wrap my head around all of this! But it's not something that I will hold my breath over

I do agree that DMT its self is a sort of religion, once that awakening has happened, there is hardly any turning back. Well, for me there wasn't any way. I know others who have smoalked and not felt the desire to go back (or to grow) - maybe because they were happier in their little bubble...

It seems evident to me that there are certainly those who seek regardless of the struggle to get 'there' (where that is, i am yet to discover but my feelings tell me the journey itself is more important than the ends), and those who would rather not question. Not questioning things makes me feel uncomfortable, a lot of the time a 'framework' such as the one outlined above also makes me feel uncomfortable, other times I feel like I would go mad without one. It really is a double edged sword.

What have we gotten ourselves into?! Without proper integration, research and philosophical grounding I can see how these experiences could well become a quagmire for the unsuspecting...

ok this is the 3rd time i have tried to write a responce to this but im not sure what i have is relevant or makes sense, so i will leave it




This is what really interests me and i have been wrestling with this idea alot this year. I love tripping, really really really love it. I like how LSD makes everything movey, bendy, swirly, floaty and the way it makes me feel as i observe it. I dont seem to be able to take to much, irrelevant of the dose i just sit there and giggle to myself, "he, he, he, acids funny, ooooooh look at that, wait no look at that, ooooooh thats cool".

When i encountered DMT for the first time i did it because it promised to be the trippiest of the trippy. I had done very little research into it and even doubted it would do what it said on the tin because hell, im good at tripping.

Obviously i was very wrong.

It turns out i cant use the trippiest of the trippy for tripping.

This is the bit that relates to your religion point.

After my first DMT session i felt i understood what all those religious folk, who i had previously mocked, were after. I now felt sad for them because they could find what they were looking for, but they didnt know where to look.

They were following false leaders and were worshiping at a 2nd hand level. If only they could find the way they could simply take 10 minutes out of there day and have direct contact with what i now believed was the inspiration/origin of there religion/all religions.

I had been to that place, and i had basked in what i can only languageify as the divine presence.

I have semi developed my ideas about what "god"(i hate the word but its all i have that remotely portrays what i mean) is about and i feel that DMT can provide me with a direct link to these concepts/places. Because of this i feel that if i sit around and just use DMT to trip then i am doing it a diservice or at the extreme end of my thinking i almost feel im being sacrilegious.

Im not trying to preach to anyone and say the only way to do this or that is by doing it my way, i just feel that i need to take my use in a certain direction or i will be missing out on the big picture.

I will soon be taking some Pharma to my psychnaught friend, he has a really cool loft for tripping in and i will be using this session as a halfway house session between what i think i should do with the molecule and what i want to do with it. We will be doing it for fun but it will be in a setting where if i am given something very special i will be able to absorb it in an apropriate way.

I have another friend who said to me "I like to smoke small amounts and just watch the trippyness of the room, not get really fucked up like you do". I feel he doesnt understand me at all.

Does any of that make any sense? probably not but not a hole lot makes sense these days.

note- i just read through that again and some of it seems a little "holier than though" which it isnt meant to be, but i find this quite difficult to get across my true feeling on this subject

any use to ya Purges?

My integration of DMT exploration is "go with the flow". I never know what it shows me next, but I know that I will not understand it most likely Analyzing doesn't help here in my experience.

3rdI - Yes! This is of use to me! Thank you for such a nice long answer With regards to LSD, I am inclined to agree. Although my first important drug experience was with this molecule, I feel it is better for personal scrutiny, a change of perspective, 'cleaning the clocks' and recreation. I find it hard to imagine using it as my only or main sacrament for a number of reasons though.

With regards to DMT - I quickly came to a similar conclusion as you - that there is something divine about this stuff, and to use it in a recreational manner just isn't going to work. I do not understand how people can smoke DMT at concerts and festivals like it is 'just any old drug' - it is so much more than that to me, and part of me feels that these people are disrespecting the molecule and also retarding their spiritual development by using it as such. I have also found that since these feelings emerged I have become so much more reluctant to dish it out to anyone who wants (or thinks they want) the experience.

At first I was more than happy to share, but then when I realised certain people were just going to use it to "get fucked up" I started to only use it in private and with only a select few people. I am still happy to give the experience to those that I think approach this stuff with a respectful attitude. This is my place of worship and it has taken me a lot of time and effort to research and produce it - as well as a certain degree of personal risk, and I don't appreciate it being used in a callous manner - if people want DMT to get 'fucked up' then they can extract their own for all I care, DMT will put things in perspective for them over time no doubt...

I also don't want to irresponsibly give some to some one who thinks it is a recreational drug, only for them to have an experience that shatters their whole belief system. It would only create more negative hype about DMT and it would be my fault. If some one asks me for a hit of acid or 2CB on the other hand, yeah, sure

I don't think you are sounding "holier than thou" by the way, I think it is the correct attitude to take - but I do think there is a very fine line between the correct attitude and a preachy, holier than thou attitude - so a degree of humility must be in the mix as well IMO. Maybe I came across as "holier than thou" in my response, IDK....

It's sad that your friend doesn't want to venture any deeper into DMT than the 'watching the trippyness of the room' stage, I'm sure they would soon realise that there is a good reason that people like to go as deep as they do - if you want sparkly visuals and a pleasant headspace, there are plenty of compounds that do just that, and for longer - without the risk of your entire reality being replaced, your ego crushed, and stern cosmic lessons being imposed on you. It is not a toy and I think your friend is taking the wrong drug to be blunt

Best of luck with your Pharma mission - good vibes your way on that one!

Tele - I think a certain degree of analysis or reflection is unavoidable with these experiences, for me any way. But yes, I do agree that "rolling with the punches", "going with the flow" etc is the way to go with integrating these sorts of things. sometimes that takes a day, sometimes months or even longer. Having a hard experience can make one reluctant, but that IMO is part of the test that the molecule puts us through once in a while to see if we have the balls to carry on, you aren't going to grow if you spend your existence in a comfortable bubble after all...

this baffles me, the slightest sound and im not comfitable and more than 2 other people with me freaks me out, i have no idea how its done at a festival.



Again i am very similar in my current beliefs. Its not that i think that people shouldnt have this experience, its just that i know what it has done to me and my view of existence, and im not very comfitable with the possiblilty that at my hands someone else could have there everything smashed to pieces, even more worrying is that although my personal transformation has made me a happier, better person, i feel it could easily go the other way and i am terrified that i could be responceable for this happening to another person.



you sound spot on to me my friend, but maybe we both reside on increadible tall horses



not blunt enough, he's a muppet, but still i love him.

I didn't mean by going with the flow that I wouldn't reflect on the experiences. I just mean that I wouldn't get stuck at anything by over analyzing or trying to solve anything with certainty, or by trying to understand.

I agree with you. I feel like dmt is a sacrement. Western religion has been purged from me because of it. No offense to followers, I was one. Traditional dogma makes no sense to me. But to each their own.

I've also stopped sharing at parties. I don't like to see it used so recreationally by those who don't understand how hard ive worked to bring something I hold so dear to be wasted. To a Christian, it would be like using a bible page for a joint. I've shared, and not one person has been motivated by their experience to extract for themselves. Not one.

It may be my fault, for sharing with a bunch of drunk people. But there are a couple friends who respect it. I confide my experiences with them and we wax intellectual on what it all means. A 3 person church all of our own.

I was actually googling this book, Phanerothyme: a Western approach to the religious use of psychochemicals, and the Nexus popped up--the wonders of the Nexus never cease!

I especially enjoyed that statement, Purges; prospecting for gold can be challenging, but one strategy I have is to stick to the well-worn paths from traditional religions (even if they don't always glitter).

From the booklet itself, I actually strongly agree with Lisa Bieberman: "I think many of our people have abandoned too quickly the search for beauty and truth in Western religious and philosophical traditions. If we can find them there, it is surely preferable, because these traditions are more a part of us than anything imported can be."

Her emphasis on "simplicity" was especially insightful. One lesson most of us have learned, even if we live the ideal only imperfectly, is one that she has likewise expressed with simplicity: "The impulse to live a pure and clean life, erring if one must err, on the side of scrupulousness, is strongly reinforced by phanerothyme, because it makes one see one's limitations, the many ways in which one can err, and the beauty of a simple and honest life."

Regarding the recreational use of psychedelics vs the 'spiritual' use, I don't think these two are mutually exclusive.

For yrstruly at least, the greatest connection I feel to the universe is when I am enjoying it. Growing up, reverence for the universe (although my folks wouldn't have phrased it that way) was a solemn experience, I recall images of sterile churches and quiet people in starchy clothes, the overall impression for me as a kid was so unpleasant that I couldn't understand why people voluntarily view their connection to the world this way. (Not implying that this is the OP's view, just sharing mine)

My most spiritual experiences have also been my most fun. I sometimes watch my young niece/nephews playing in the backyard when I visit family, they are so absorbed in what they are doing, so in the flow that they aren't even thinking about it... they are just having fun. To me fun is the ultimate reprieve from sober adulthood... there is nothing trivial about enjoying the world, and I feel more connected to whatever the hell is out there when I am ecstatic than i do when I am reflective. I feel the most alienated and solipsistic when I am stuck in my head, trying to figure things out.

Psychedelics are fun with a whole lot of respect thrown in.

Why are so people afraid to admit psychedelic experiences can be fun? Fun is demonized here quite frequently. People like to jump on the "oh he's using for recreation, I don't approve bandwagon" because the substance isn't being used in a way they jive with. I had a friend who told me I was wasting LSD because I wanted to walk around the lake and go swimming, listen to music, etc. The experience was divine, of course, yet he didn't approve because I didn't sit in a room with all the lights off and meditate.

Wheres the line between recreation and spirituality? Can your spirituality be recreation? I like to take LSD and be around friends and family. I like to observe people and appreciate them for who they are. I like to listen to music, I like to lay in the grass and look at the sky, I like to watch stand up comedy, I like to live life while on psychedelics, and jesus christ, it sure isn't fuckin' boring.

That article was pretty bad IMO.

I like to garden with DMT..does that make me non-spiritual?

If you never have fun while on psychedelics, your doing it wrong. Heck, even alone in silent darkness during meditation can REALLY crack you up at times.

Bieberman wrote that in the halcyon Sixties, attempting to remedy some of the "reasons many [underground psychedelic drug takers] get so little out of psychedelics"--reasons like "overuse."

Her comments, on the whole, aren't especially focused on a sanitized, ritualized setting; in fact, that is the minority of her focus, I'd say.