Hai folks,

I've been obsessed with using Magnetism to build a self-propelling Motor that Generates electricity.
I'm sure people can figure out ways to make it work, so if you disagree with me about that start your
own topic about it and leave this Topic in respect of those who are open to the possibility.(Preamptive Strike)

I've been snooping around on PESwiki.com and found these 2 very interresting designs;
1-
Check animation & learn more about it here: http://www.fdp.nu/cack_movie/JanPCack.htm

2-
This wheel looks like it should work.

There are many more such clever designs, but for now I want to focus on building
prototypes of these 2 designs I just showed you.


Motor 1; 11 Cogwheels
I've been trying to find the right parts for the 1st magnetic motor, but couldn't find
appropriate size cogwheels. Various sizes & shapes of Magnets I can easily obtain.
I suppose I could save the blueprint-image of the cogwheels onto a USB-stick,
go to a copy/print-shop and ask them to print the image out in more workable dimensions.
That Blueprint I can then draw on wood or acrylic board out of which I can then cut
the cogwheels. But I have no saw or workbench so the project has been stalled for now.
If by any chance anyone knows a shop or website where I can buy various sizes of
(non ferro-magnetic)cogwheels please enlighten me. Any help would be appreciated.

Motor 2; Ring Magnet Ferriswheel
This one shouldn't be difficult to make at all. The large, outer ring-magnet can be made
up of several smaller, rectangulair magnets. The center ring-magnet could be a large
ring-magnet, the ringmagnets that also act as the weights could be several small
ring-magnets stacked ontop of eachother. The Ferriswheel structure could be made of wooden
parts that can readily be bought in hardware stores.

Here's a link to a webshop that sells magnets in all sizes & shapes;
http://www.supermagnete....Ms6jQua0CFUGIDgodknQW5A

The kind of input that would be most helpfull are ideas & concepts of these, or other designs, links
to suppliers of the materials nececairy to build prototypes & links to other clever designs of magnetic motors.
I hope I've inspired some of you to build prototypes and see if they will work.

Sorry, it's simply not a matter of being "open to the possibility". Perpetual motion and free energy are impossible. You just can't draw more energy from a system than what exists in it to begin with. I would rather not "leave you to it" because I don't think it's good for the forums to let ignorance fester in specially designated threads just because the ignorant don't want to put in the hard work that the rest of us have in learning real science. I've only been reading these forums for a few months but this is an extremely common theme. You may think you're just being open-minded, but you don't realise how that is a huge insult to those who subscribe to the mainstream scientific view. We are also open-minded!

agreed

you can be a criminal if you wanted to be, judicial laws are easy to break...but you aren't going to break the laws of thermodynamics.

Sorry, that's not how this works. If you want the topic to be exempt from critical thinking raining all over your parade, it belongs in the Through the Looking Glass subforum. If you want to have this discussion in a part of the site where critical thinking applies, then you've got to grapple with the laws of thermodynamics.

This room has a million hard drive motors, like a kilo of harvested neo magnets, bearings and mounts and gears of all sizes, driver circuits, charging circuits and coils.
standard setups in use are very inefficient - even harvesting back emf to recharge, pushes the efficiency up alot.
in my books the first rule of thermodynamics is a lie pressed upon the sheeple to stop progress in the correct direction.
in real life i have seen this law broken a few times - za is a place where ppl need energy and ppl have the time to play with teks to find it

give me an instance where more usable energy is derived from a system than is put in.

it doesn't even work that way in molecular motors, such as ATPase and DNA polymerase, which are far more efficient than anything man has ever conceived.

water crusher style heat pumps seem to give out more energy in the form of heat than electrical energy consumed to spin the inner cylinder

nature always does things perfectly - all good inventions come from observing nature - thanks for the pointer on ATPase and DNA polymerase.

Exactly this is how I feel about the Law on Thermodynamics. This is simply a lie to stop inventors from actually outsmarting the fossile fuel industries.
There's no rationality involved at all, as is seen with the Laws on drugs. It is a facade that does it's best to sound rational, but really is nothing
more than a Tyranical "NO! You can't go there! Why? Because I say so! Obey! Bad Monkey!"-policy.

When people criticize designs I'm very open to hear it. Constructive criticism is good and can serve to help perfect designs.
But saying "It's simply impossible. I cannot allow your ignorance to spread on this noble forum" is completely irrational and
dogmatic. It skips all reasoning and basically doesn't even tolerate the existance of this very discussion.
That's why in advance I kindly asked such "criticism" to be left out of this topic.

Rather than discussing theories I was hoping to let experiments tell us the answers. Who are you, to decide that this Topic is pathetic and should
not be tolerated to even exist? I already decided to place it in Hyperspace Tavern, rather than in Science, because I anticipated this response.
Now you think it's not good enough for Hyperspace Tavern either and it can hang around in Through the LookingGlass?

Well like I said; Start your own Topic about it. An impatient, less igmirable part of me thinks your dogmatic, almost sacreligious belief
in the Laws of Thermodynamics is Pathetic and deeply ignorant too; Yet you don't see me harrass and redicule yout views Let alone say your
ignorance has no right to exist on this Forum? You don't see me stalking and rediculing your topics, do you? Since when are the Laws
of Thermodynamics undoubtable and inarguable? Are the Thermodynamic Laws legally enforced by the police?
My bad, I thought it was merely a Scientific Theory free and open for debate. How ignorant of me. Forgive me please.


Now I and others who do not take the Laws of Thermodynamics ALL that serious(Which is not to say we just dismiss them entirely all together),
wish to continue this discussion positively, constructively. We wish to discuss designs and prototypes and do experiments instead of getting
stuck in ceaseless intellectual masturbation over Thermodynamic laws. Have some respect for views other than your own, and find some tolerance
in yourself to put up with "our bullshit", if you INSIST on seeing it that way




The End.

---

Now that we've had that little unpleasant diversion, let's just get right back to the topic and get to the experimenting.

They don't have to be. Like benz said, you can try all you want, but you're not going to be able to break those laws.



You're forgiven for your mistake. If it was a scientific theory, then it would be called the Theory of Thermodynamics. You'll notice that these are actually called the Laws of Thermodynamics.




I have no issue with people who want to engage the issue and theorize whether there are sets of conditions where the laws of thermodynamics will operate in non-intuitive ways. But to simply presume out of hand that they are false is simply offensive. I don't see any way to have a serious discussion on this subject if you refuse to engage with the science behind it. If you don't understand the science behind it, how on earth are you going to design prototypes that will circumvent the conventional barriers?

Is there anything in the whole universe where the law of conservation of energy doesn't apply?

nope.

again, if anyone can show empirical data for a system that puts out more energy than was put in, we can have a reasonable discussion on these devices. the fact of the matter is, there will always be a loss of energy in any system, to the surroundings, in the form of heat.

Entropy Mancer & Benzyme, I really don't share your absolute faith in the Laws of Thermodynamics.
I think they're absolutely rigid & outdated and poluted with economical & political interrests.
I can agree to disagree with you guys. I don't feel the need to agree with you on that.

I really don't wanna hear a word about it anymore in this topic. You're simply derailing my topic
with a quasi-intellectual style of trolling.

Now I wan't to hear WHOEVER runs this forum officially
SAY that speaking of anything that defies the Laws of Thermodynamics is intelerable on this forum and punishable by banishment.

If I hear that I will be quick to find a more pleasant, enlightened forum to participate in.
If I don't hear that I will just assume you 2 just have tyrannical personalities and do every-
thing you can to derail and ruin topics that don't resonate with your beliefs.

I would definitely want to hear an opinion about this situation from whoever runs this forum.
I think this forum is really going to shit, especially because of the harsh, tyrannical
additudes of people like EntropyMancer & Benzyme.

Their additude towards many people and their topics are very harsh, cynical and disrespectfull.
This kind of animosity will be alot more harmfull than a little scientific ignorance if you ask me.

Great thanks for derailing YET another topic, because your almighty, alknowing demi-god asses find it unworthy.

SKA,

If you post on this forum on matters that pertain to the realm of scientific knowledge, you can very well expect that your post will be scrutinized. This is how it works here. If someone says that one can safely heat naphtha on open flame, it doesn't matter if this person has absolute faith it will be fine, it doesn't matter if this person doesntt agree with science, this is how it works, flammable solvents + flames = kaboom, and we will call this person out.

In the same way, the law of thermodynamics is extremely reliable and can be shown by endless experiments, regardless if you believe it or not. If you think it doesn't work, you are free to explain why you think it doesn't, but you can very well know that people will give you arguments (and evidence) otherwise. The Nexus was based on this scientific knowledge since the beginning, and this is how it will continue. It is thanks to this critical thinking and reliable knowledge that we have created so many extremely good teks and dependable information, that no matter where you're from or what you believe, you can use the reliable information here and it will work.

Now, the beauty of science is, the knowledge can be updated with new experiments. So instead of taking it as an offense that people point the law of thermodynamics out and how it works, well, show us it doesnt... its as simple as that.. Saying it doesnt work without making your research, being offended when people call you out, wont lead you or the discussion anywhere. So research, experiment, discuss, take criticism, improve your points, change your ideas if thats how it is, show others so that they can change theirs if thats how it is...

If someone disagrees with you, you shouldnt take it as an offense or attack, you should take it as an opportunity to grow. It only pushes you into researching more, learning more. What is your point to just want to talk to people who only agree with you? How will you ever enrichen your view like that? Isnt that extremely closed-minded?


If you dont like the Nexus for how it is, feel free to go elsewhere.... I think you could benefit from being here though, and so could the Nexus from having you. But do what thou wilt.

By the way, I strongly suggest you read these threads:

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=28198
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=28005
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=27932

SKA, don't you realize that forcing yourself to be blind to evidences is unproductive? You are literaly asking for people not to participate in this conversation unless they have the same opinion as you. How is THAT for "rigid"?

Honnestly, nobody is stopping you from proving everybody else wrong, but until then, your opinion is totally unfounded. If you can explain why the thermodynamic laws are wrong, explain why. Just hammering and again how it is a lie won't convince anyone; won't make it true. Explain your point of view.

Don't you think that if proving the thermodynamic laws was as easy as making one of those (pretty simple to make, really) prototypes, someone would have done it before?

basically perpetual motion

SKA and Phlux, let me tell you how laws in science work..

they are the closest thing we have to "universal truths". they're not theories, which is what the majority of publications address, they are universally accepted facts. the math is constant, the results are constant. you can't interpret them in different ways, they're not like human laws, they're laws of nature. there's no need to "prove" them, because they are observed the same by all, every time.

Hear hear!

I never said Thermodynamic laws are a complete fearytale. I'm just saying they're no absolute truths either.
I'm implying that the truth more likely lies in the grey area in between.

I'd be happy to listen if you could tell me exactly why, for instance, the magnetic Ferriswheel would not spin,
or eventually come to a stop.
Such criticism is alot more helpfull than basically saying "No it can't work, because... The Laws of Thermodynamics"
The first being an actual explanation, the latter being just a cynical "No. Just don't even go there".

Tell me which Law of Thermodynamics would stop this wheel from spinning continuously and exactly why.
Friction can be overcome with enough power, reduced to near 0 by simple means...so what exactly is the problem?

Now if you're going to swear by the Thermodynamic Laws, explain how they relate to the 2 designs I just showed you. Be as precise as you can.
Let's focus on the Ferriswheel-design for a while.
Looking properly at the Ferriswheel, I see a design that seems to very efficiently overcome all the forces that would otherwise gradually
stop a spinning wheel. Everytime the magnetic weights are about to start moving upwards again, an abundantly powerfull magnetic force
(simultaneous deflection from below & attraction from above)slides this weight to the centre, making the side of the wheel that goes
down allways a bit heavier than the side of the wheel that's going up. So, explain to me, what's the Thermodynamic problem with this design?


In any case, I'm going to the hardware store to get some materials, order some magnets online and try to build this
ferriswheel. Feel free to build one yourself. Whoever gets to it first can let us know what happens.



PS: I'm not ashamed of being ignorant. I am here to learn. I will gladly admit I know close to nothing about Thermodynamic laws. Probably
just slightly more than the average person due to my personal interrests; I have a notion of what they are, but can't give a lecture on it.
I know they are Laws that predict how the various known types of matter behave/interact in various known conditions, but that's about it.
Despite my lack of in-depth knowledge I have no trouble understanding how a wheel with 1 heavy side will roll untill the heavy-side is
at the lowest possible point, then stop rolling. And from there it doesn't seem science fiction to create a wheel that allways keeps it's
downward-moving side heavier than it's upward-going side.

I'm open to anyone who knows more than I do and is willing to teach, but I'm not open to disrespectfull cynicism and censorship of harmless,
albeit "unconventional" perspectives. It brings out the worst in us all and doesn't make for a very intelligent, civilised discussion.

The magnetic ferris wheel will come to a stop because of the inertia of the moving parts requires energy to overcome the centripetal force. Very quickly the system will find an static equilibrium which requires no further energy input and come to a complete halt. Having said that, it's pointless and a waste of time to think about any number of macro-scale experiments when we already understand the fundamental forces at play well enough to know that no combination of them violates the second law of thermodynamics.

We're not being closed-minded at all. We understand the fundamental forces well enough to know that there is no chance of you breaking the laws of physics with magnets in your living room, but there are still many unsolved problems that physicists actually work on. They are fascinating in their own right, they just take a bit more intellectual grunt to get your head around.

We're not asking you to believe what we say based on our own authority. There is no dogma to it. Just a huge body of repeatable, demonstrable, plausible evidence which is 100% in our favour and 0% in yours.

For the record, there is no funding coming from any energy companies in the physics department at my school. They take their research neutrality very seriously, and any grant even suspected of coming from a group with a hidden agenda is blocked. I'm not a physicist, but some of my friends are, and they're just normal people. I've hung out with them in the lab. There's no conspiracy, no hiding information, no agenda. Just science.

The centripetal force would push the magnetic weights to the outside of the wheel, that I understand.
I too have swung around buckets of water as a kid, amazed that nothing spilled

But I find it hard to imagine that this could not be overcome by just using strong enough magnets.
There are permanent magnets that attract eachother with enough force to crush your fingers as if
it where nothing, so finding magnets strong enough to overcome the centripetal force should
defenitely be possible.

It could also help if you used magnets that are not only stronger, but also significantly lighter than average magnets.
The less weight an object has, the less centripetal force it generates when swung around, correct?

For the prototype I'll just use plain neodynium ringmagnets. I don't expect it to go THAT fast, so
I also don't expect there to be THAT much centripetal force. The amount of Centripetal force is
determined by both Mass and Velocity, isn't it?

it won't matter, because eventually the forward motion will be neutralized by a counteracting reverse force, and the rotary motion will cease; it will reach a state of equilibrium.
it if were truly perpetual, you'd be exceeding 100% efficiency (net positive energy...more energy produced than put in), and that never happens in the universe with any system.


believe it or not, I read that PESWiki page back in 2005, before I took a course in thermodynamics. I too was enamored with the concept of a permanent rotor-stator generator, but the magnets lose their strength over time (heat generated weakens the field).

many have tried to devise derivatives of the Howard Johnson motor, but all have failed. some have even sold hoax plans to exploit the naive.
the laws of thermodynamics are not just rigid, they are insurmountable...but we are free to operate within the laws.