Hello all!

SWIM is wondering if anyone here has TAKEN ayahausca while being prescribed Effexor XR? SWIM has been on Effexor XR for several years, during which time she has taken many stimulants that are supposedly lethal with Effexor. (including poppy tea, very, very large doses of DXM -two boxes/day for two weeks, multiple times, large amounts of alcohol, dmt, lsd weed, etc.) SWIM is dead set on taking ayahausca, but she is getting a lot of resistance from her psychonaut partner. As she seems to be fine with maois, she does not see any reason not to do ayahausca, but her psychonaut partner thinks it is too strong and too dangerous, asking she stick with mushrooms, lsd, dmt, etc.

SWIM would highly appreciate only responses from people who have taken ayahauca while on effexor xr, or those who were with someone who did so. She has read all the warnings, but wants to hear from someone who has experienced this. She only believes in learning from experience.

Again, thanks!

My two cents, respectfully:
The evidence that MAOIs combined with SSRI or SSNRI are dangerous/potentially lethal is extensive - better not to "learn from experience" in this arena.

A related vaping experience:
A friend reports that after ~ 1 month of 75mg Effexor XR, in which the anti-depressant did basically what it was supposed to do without any side effects/hitches/discomfort, he vaped 25mg spice by the side of a lovely stream, and... nothing. Anticipation, a lovely shaded creek, but not a glimmer of hyperspace. This confirms for him what others report - that SSRIs nullify the spice experience. Makes sense, considering SSRIs mode of action - maintaining more seratonin between the synapses, thus out-competing the fleeting DMT at the 5HT receptors.
Any additional experiences or correction/elaboration to the above welcome.

Best,
L

seems to be fine with maois... what does that mean? "Dead set" is an interesting choice of words.

You make a good point, ouro. I'm embarrassed. haha.

ljosalfar - Thanks for the input. If the research is extensive, I guess that settles it. No point in killing yourself over an experience. I would like to ask, however, was the spice ayahausca or dmt? Just wanted to clarify, as I thought ayahausca couldn't be smoked/vaped. Also, only the ayahausca is dangerous for one taking effexor, is that correct? SWIM has sucessfully taken dmt a couple of times while on this medication, though neither time had breakthrough.

Again, thanks for the input.

Schlieffenska - I know most health warnings seem to be overly cautious, and I felt that way about the warnings about mixing MAOIs & SSRIs until I had the horrible experience I wrote about in this thread : here

This does seem to be a combination of substances that is truly dangerous, so I'm afraid you may have to look forward to Ayahuasca as your reward for when you have successfully come off SSRIs in the future!

I wish you luck with that process. It is becoming increasingly clear that SSRIs actually extend the length of your depression by discouraging the brain from producing Serotonin (because it no longer reabsorbs it so much), and that this process is even harder to change than the original (re-uptake) problem!

So now is a great time to struggle to get free of them.

Good luck.

What kind of effects did you get out of DMT and LSD while under Effexor ?
I found out that even a very mild SNRI (Tramadol) reduces drastically the effectiveness of shrooms and to a lesser extent DMT so I wonder what
a full-fledged SNRI might do...

The experience (or lack of one!) related was with DMT freebase; 'spice' usually doesn't refer to harmalas/aya. Aya extracts and FB harmalas are commonly vaped/smoked as constituents of changa. My understanding is that it is the MAOI, in any form, combined with SNRI/SSRI (Effexor, etc.) that is dangerous.
Very interesting that even while on Effexor you experienced a DMT high... how was it? Did it require more than when not on Effexor?



Any references or reading material discussing this would be greatly appreciated - these SSRIs are blades that cut both ways, for sure!

Thanks,
L

Effexor (Venlafaxine), according to the British National Formulary, interacts with MAOIs to increase the CNS effects of the MAOI, and hence the risk of toxicity.

MAOIs should not be used for at least one week after using Effexor; conversely, Effexor should not be started until 2 weeks after stopping the MAOI.

Ljosalfar, I was paraphrasing what I had read on the Psychology Today website.

I have often wondered if the body would compensate in that way, so it's interesting to see research now suggesting it does. Certainly ten years ago I was assured that these things were totally non-addictive - and now, surprise, surprise, it's looking like that may be wrong!

Having said that though, they saved my life - so I can't really regret having used them...but it does make me more determined than ever to pull away from them now that they have shown me (for the first time in my adult life) what it is like to feel happiness.

Thanks, Limeni.
Good to hear you have both succeeded with the aid of SSRI medication, and you are actively looking to evolve away from dependency on these potent pharmaceuticals. I am doing the same, finding help and achieving results through many rigorous lifestyle choices, counseling, and a close social net. It takes grace and vigilance, but it is how I want to be living, and this is really the point, I feel.
Best,
L

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. .Thanks Ljosalfar - I wish you well on that journey.

I'm very interested in this topic as I have tapered down to a 10mg daily dose of Paxil (from 40mg initially). I have tried to stop completely several times but it is not easy. Paxil and Effexor are similar in that they are the hardest SSRIs to get off of. When these drugs started being sold they were described as non-addictive but it's looking more and more that they are very addictive with nasty withdrawal side effects.

My doctor tells me that my current 10mg Paxil dose isn't theraputic (isn't enough to aid depression), but I've told him what happens if I stop and it's not fun. He prescribed a taper schedule for me to slowly stop the drug over a period of two weeks. For me, that was too fast and I had to step back up to the current 10mg dose. I'm sort of hovering there now waiting to finish the job, but again, it is not fun.

Different people have different experiences getting off of these drugs. For Paxil, there are whole forums devoted to this. A very good one for Paxil is: paxil withdrawal

Effexor has withdrawal information on the web as well: effexor withdrawal

The Pfizer Effexor data sheet says you must stop taking Effexor for 7 days before taking an MAOI. effexor datasheet They surely aren't talking about Aya specifically but rather the class of very strong antidepressant MAOIs used in psychaitry. Aya contains capii, rue or other harmalas that act as a MAOI. When Paxil or Effexor are taken with a MAOI, too much seratonin can accumulate in your body. This is known as Seratonin Syndrome.

The Mayo Clinic website describes the symptoms of Seratonin Syndrome here: Seratonin Syndrome Symptoms

Serotonin syndrome symptoms include:
Agitation or restlessness
Confusion
Rapid heart rate and high blood pressure
Dilated pupils
Loss of muscle coordination or twitching muscles
Heavy sweating
Diarrhea
Headache
Shivering
Goose bumps

Severe serotonin syndrome can be life-threatening. Signs and symptoms include:
High fever
Seizures
Irregular heartbeat
Unconsciousness

If you suspect you might have serotonin syndrome after starting a new drug or increasing the dose of a drug you're already taking, call your doctor right away or go to the emergency room. If you have severe or rapidly worsening symptoms, seek emergency treatment immediately.

Having never taken Aya I wouldn't know for sure but, it does not sound so good to put yourself in a life threatening situation mixed with a powerful psychedelic experience. I'll be tapered someday. If you want it badly enough, so will you. We trusted these drug companies to tell us the truth before we started taking their pills. They may have forgotten to tell us a few things about withdrawal and side effects. They may not have told our doctors either. Live and learn.

If anyone has additional information, please share. There must be at least a few of us stuck in this trap. Please be safe.

IME, different people have differing degrees of trouble getting off SSRI/SNRIs and it seems to be, in part, a function of how long ones been on them.Slow dose reduction-and the rate of this can also be variable- seems to be the best way.If you can get your SSRI as a liquid, it allows for reducing the dose by 1mg at a time towards the end.Also streching out to an alternate day regime when down to the lesser dosages can help.Undoubtedly, these compounds are addicitve in the sense of having a real withdrawal syndrome associated with them.A few days benzodiazepine therapy at the end can also smooth the transition to a med-free existence.

Advise like this makes me wish for a section of the forum dedicated to SSRI/SNRI education. It could be beneficial to many.

Another related recent discussion discussion here on the Nexus, Using Caapi for Severe Depression, in which a personal experience of Serotonin Syndrome is related. Important cautionary tale.
L

Another thing nobody ever points out is that, if you are using capsules, you can just slide them open, pour out some of the powder, then reassemble. A very good way to reduce dosage very gradually.

A separate forum for SSRIs is an interesting idea, as a huge proportion of the people here seem to have problems in this area. People might feel there's probably enough forums already though, maybe.