So for the last 7 or 8 months I have been obsessed with finding the solution to this weird phenomena. I'm still waiting on a referral to a psychologist which I requested from my GP like 4 1/2 months ago. I suffer from strong social anxiety, possibly a symptom of Aspergers and/or ADD.

By paradoxical reactions I mean effects completely atypical of the effects described by others which are in most cases the complete opposite of these typical effects.
For example: Caffeine's effects are (source):
* Reduced boredom
* Decreased depression
* Increased alertness when tired
* Willingness to consider alternative theories
* Increased physical stamina and reduced perceived exertion
* May attenuate the response-slowing effect of alcohol
* Increases performance on boring, repetitive tasks

When I take Caffeine I get these effects on doses even as low as 1mg (about 95% of the time):
* Extreme drop in motivation
* Strong anxiety and dysphoria
* Excessive yawning and sleepyness
* Narrowing and slowing of thoughts
* Massive increase in energy/willpower needed for tasks

While not every reaction is the opposite, with each and every paradoxical reaction there is always anxiety, dysphoria and sleepyness.
There are effects that happen each time regardless of typical or paradoxical effects like visuals, perspective shifts/changes in thought patterns.

If I got paradoxical reactions 100% of the time then I would accept it and just move on but I don't I CAN get normal effects but it just almost never happens.

It may seem like I am making excuses to take substances and that if I just stop I will be fine but I assure you that isn't the case. Regardless of whether the effects from the most recent substance was positive or negative, dose high, medium, low or micro, in the days after the experience I experience steadily increasing effects of extreme boredom, lack of motivation and constant sleepiness getting worse as I abstain from substances for a month or more.

I recently had a shock when in 2 days (24 hours after taking any substances) which I experienced clear-headed motivation and energy I literally got more done in the house and my life than I did in the 3 months earlier. Every day during those months I would expend MASSIVE effort and willpower just to work 30 or 60 minutes on a task and feel terrible during it and more terrible as I did not have the willpower to finish it.

Only in the last month or so have I been able to accurately define the effects I experience. Maybe others can help with describing their experiences or give insights on the info.

I'll keep it as short as possible...

The facts:
1:The first time I took a new type of substance I experienced completely normal effects consistent with reports of others but upon taking the substance again the effects steadily shifted towards paradoxical reactions with each dose. The phenomena is the same whether the next dose is 2 days later or 8 months later.
Ex: My first time taking: Mushrooms, DXM, Alcohol, Cannibis and Mescaline were all normal in effects, the second time would be about 80% typical effects. 5th would be down to about 30%, 10th would be 10% or so decreasing eventually to 0%.

2: Similar substances would give paradoxical reactions consistent with total doses
Ex: The first time taking 2c-e gave similar effects to the 8th or 9th time taking Mescaline which were <10% typical effects because they are both phenethylamines.

3:Some substances always give me paradoxical effects, possibly due to similarities to others despite not being obviously similar.
Ex:MDMA (very good source, always tested by others to be "amazing" ) has never given me any positive effects at all, I tried doses ranging from 10mg up to 450mg with months in between 8-9 different tests.

4:When I binge on a substance that normally gives near 0% typical effects for over 8 hours or more regardless if the doses are: very low, normal or very high. after that point the effects reach a point of 10%-30% typical effects very consistently on each redose until I sleep, then the effects reset.

5:Every so-often when I take a dose of something I will get 75%-100% typical effects. Many times in the period 1-10 minutes after taking a substance I will get these effects then they will quickly fade to near 0%. Almost every time these effects last less than 20 minutes regardless of the half-life of the substance.
I have not found any similarities between the activities done, diet and previous substances taken before and during these reactions at all despite the fact I take meticulous notes of every time I take substances.

6:Other than the first times taking substances there are only a couple times where positive/typical effects lasted greater than 20 minutes.
Twice after the 6th or 7th hour of an aMT experience, which was sedating, anxious and dysphoric up until then, stimulation and euphoria was experienced for 2-3 hours. I then experienced MASSIVE depression for 2-3 days after that.
Not consistently but maybe 5 or 6 times 1 or 2 days after a binge on 1 or more substances I experienced strong motivation and sometimes euphoria for up to an entire day. The effects fade quickly and completely over the next 1-2 days without a hangover.

7. An odd aspect is that pupil dilation correlates with typical effects and does not happen with paradoxical effects. I've smoked 20mg of DMT without any dilation of my pupils when the effects were 0% typical.

I've tried DOZENS of substances ranging from herbs, amino acids and psychedelics to drugs and RCs. Every substance does this with the exception of GHB (and GBL, GHB's prodrug) which consistently gives >30% typical effects but maybe the method of action is just like that with paradoxical effects.



A few strategies I've tried which have not worked:
1.Combination of substances (most often GHB + anything). This very often seemed to work but really was just paradoxical effects of substance + GHB's effects or whatever the combo was. Never any synergy consistently.
2. Micro doses, Large doses, Multiple doses. This often seemed to work but ended up being the 10%-30% effect from binging mentioned earlier.
3. Pre-dosing or co-dosing supplements like L-tyrosine, GABA and 5-HTP. These supplements alone produce mild and highly inconsistent effects but close to doses and hours/days after and never really cause any consistent results with pre-doses or co-doses.
4.Exercising before, during the come-up or during the peak. Usually just made me more anxious due to the fact that it is so difficult to do the most basic exercises.
5. Talking with others through my anxiety (usually I am alone during experiences) while I can discuss the fact that my anxious feelings are illogical it never relieves them at all.

I've noticed a higher than 5% rate of typical effects when a substance is taken in low/medium doses then again 24-48 hours later but I have been unable to replicate this consistently.
The test I have planned next is to take a low/micro dose before bed then a regular dose in the morning. I have experienced odd effects from non-controlled tested with that being done but not planned beforehand.
I have tried dozens of these strategies in the past without success so I won't be surprised if this doesn't work though.


~~~
I posted similar threads with partial info which I wrote on binges getting 10-30% effects with confused reactions. Hopefully this thread is clearer.

I'm pretty F-d up ain't I?

My cat has not taken the same exact things as you, but he has noticed a different reaction since taking caapi regularly. He cannot tolerate more than half a cup of coffee or coca cola. In times past, he could drink whole bottles of cola and entire pots of coffee without noticing any difference. Now, he reacts with intense irritability and depression if he drinks more than a cup full of either. He also gets extremely nauseated at some of his favorite foods that are junk foods. He craves fresh fruits and vegetables constantly.

Mentally, he sometimes experiences the same effects he has had on mescaline by smoking a joint. There is definitely a change going on in the body it seems, but what it means or what is going on exactly is still a mystery. Thanks for posting that, I'd be curious to see other people's thoughts.

I've heard of anecdotal reports where people with ADD have had paradoxical responses with caffeine.Interestingly, its also claimed by some with ADD that Valerian root, instead of sedating tends to make them wired and jittery.

I think ADD is a subtle developmental disorder whose exact physiology at the neuronal level is poorly understood at present.Maybe when we suss out more about it, we will be able to hypothsise a mechanism to explain these observations.Caffeine works largely by altering the amounts of cAMP within cells so it must act at a fairly fundamental level.

I wonder how much of ADD is actually an organic disease or rather diagnostics influenced by the Big Pharma, as well as some psychological symptoms related to the overstimulation in our modern society, as well as the perverted educational system that blames kids for not paying attention to their outdated lessons.

If you have a bit different body/brain chemistry that isn't necessary a bad thing, I'd say it could even be good. Everybody can't be the same, even in reaction to substances

isnt this normal

I did read about ADD and paradoxical reactions but there are 2 things:
1: It is HIGHLY controversial with many scientists on the "It is untrue" side
2: The reactions described or much different that mine.

I have been volunteering with kids which as always have been enjoyable and fun but unfortunately the enjoyment and happiness stopped right after the kids leave.

One night... nights, initiated by that fact, I overindulged massively on that GHB stuff and stayed up for 54 hours then got 2 hours sleep before going to work! Right after waking up from that I poignantly poured it out and rinsed the bottle to be sure it was all gone.

I believe that variable may have had a lot to do with the non-sucess of pretty much everything. It is very inhibitory and though it does produce mild mood lift I think that is just incedental to it's paradoxical effects though the more important part is that it is inhibitory and very well could have blocked any positive effects when I "got it right" with other things.

Currently I am doing much more controlled tests using only:
Caffeine
2 types of Benzos: Clonazepam and Etizolam
and Vodka

No other thing at all so the variables are limited.
Since None of the tests have been sucessful (positive effects) you can rest your mind if you are thinking "Make sure you don't get addicted to benzos!"

Currently the tests have the results as follow: (? are not done yet and with each I will make sure to repeat it to confirm the result)

Caffeine alone (Low (5mg) Med, High (400mg)) = Sedation and Anxiety

Either Benzo alone (low(.0325mg), Med, High(1mg)) - Non-sleepy sedation and dysphoria, sometimes anxiety

Caffiene + Benzo (either) = Regardless of order taken - Mild sedation, dysphoria and/or anxiety though if the caffeiene over-powers the benzo then the effects are identical to caffeine-alone

Clonazepam before bed:
Low= ?
Med= ?
High= Sleepy upon waking for a few hours then no notable effects

Etizolam before bed:
Low= ?
Med= ?
High= Sleepy upon waking for a few hours then no notable effects

Caffeine before bed:
Low=?
Med= Inconclusive test due to not actually sleep (taken before a nap) but interesting short-lasting mild sedation
High= ?

The next test I tried to do (with caffeine) before but took the GHB stuff and stayed up later each night and all night but got very results on day 5, way too many variables and non-controlled dosage though.

Caffeine taken once a day:
Day 1: ?
Day 2:
Day 3:
Day 4:
Day 5:
Day 6:
Day 7:

Clonazepam taken once a day:
Day 1: ?
Day 2:
Day 3:
Day 4:
Day 5:
Day 6:
Day 7:

Etizolam taken once a day:
Day 1: ?
Day 2:
Day 3:
Day 4:
Day 5:
Day 6:
Day 7:


Since Vodka is somewhat similar to GHB I am not going to use it in these tests until I am done with them but I will test with it later probably.

I would stay away from caffeine anyway

Okay let me just apologize in advance for the following, I'm thinking it is going to be insulting and arrogant but I just can't bring myself to leave this without a reply.

So your are saying that it is a good idea to stay away from caffeine. Caffeine which in a very real way contributed to the enlightenment with coffee houses and tea houses being the center of some discussions which (directly or indirectly) led to many of the most important to discoveries/ideas/inventions ever.
Caffeine, one of or maybe THE most studied food product on earth, the most popular drug on the planet used safely by millions of people worldwide.
Caffeine which has show marked improvement (temporary of course) in cognitive function while fatigued as well as significant benefit to exercise programs when used in combination with ephedrine (studied to be very safe)

This told to someone who complains of intense lack of motivation to the point where 3 months of living produces as much practical work as 2 days while significantly stimulated. This lack of motivation leading to bouts of depression and 16+ hours a day sitting in his room on the computer.
Remember he has requested a referral for a diagnosis to help this but as many people know 6-9 months is not uncommon for this process.

So I really have to say that post was extremely poorly thought out and extremely unhelpful. I assure you if I do successfully and reliably get the typical effects from caffeine I will be able to watch out for all the benefits, side effects, addictive qualities, etc without issue due to the fact that I have read for hours and hours and hours about caffeine and have them memorized.

But anyway, thanks for your opinion.

I didn't make my point clear, sorry for that. I just think that as caffeine changes our brain chemistry I think you could try(just a suggestion) your explorations of effects of other potentially beneficial "drugs" without the use of caffeine. And it's famous for making people nervous at higher doses and has some addictive potential.
One without motivation might want to try natural methods, plants such as San Pedro, Ayahuasca etc. I'm sure you have tried some but maybe not all...

PS. You are my hero as because of your TEK I have the possibility to make easily DMT, and I owe you big time. I don't know how I can help but if I can help anyhow I certainly will do my best.

PPS. I drink tea several times a day, so I can call my self sort of caffeine fan anyway...

I have tried pretty everything under the sun, on that note

About the post, I did not mean anything personal by it, I make sure to call people's actions into praise or condemn, not the person.
Also this was at 6am after a very odd test of caffeine before bed where I woke exhausted but quite motivated after having a sleep consisting of: 4 hours dreamless racing thoughts semi-sleep then 1.5 awake then 1.45 hours with a 2 dreams totaling at least 3 hours in length, one lucid.



Today I got into an arguement with a co-worker over the wording or her comment too! so lets just say: No harm, no foul.

Cheers

Tobacco does the same thing for people..so does cocaine and speed for some people. The question is does caffine reliably do that for YOU? I know for me caffine made me rediculousily burnt out after a time, gave me stomache pain and tons of anxiety.

Frac is right. Do what helps you, don't do what hurts you. Very simple. Nothing is good or bad for people, everything is good or bad for you.


For me caffeine is a drug, I love the way it makes me feel. I tend to abuse it in short bursts (2-3 days max) and then I will go for weeks/months without it because otherwise

q21x2...
I wish you much love, strength, vigor, and peace... it sounds from your posts that life can be challenging, isolating, changeable. I hope that your GP refers you to someone good at what they do and who is a good fit. Pro help can be ...very helpful.
I applaud the detail and diligence with which you conduct tests and self-observations. It sounds like you are on your way to developing a personal rubric for reactions and responses to... things. It is a worthwhile skill, although I believe it can cut both ways.
May I suggest expanding the field of study from substances to other realms, namely exercise and socializing? This is not intended to be a condescending prescription, only a suggestion which may yield new and welcome changes and insight.
Be well,
L

I would suggest trying exercising/sports, cycling most of all because it's fun and good for you. One can notice how good one feels and sleeps after one week(or even one day) of cycling. And there's no time to get bored, just choose a destination and be rolling. I really enjoy taking cycling trips to nature, such as lake etc.

^especially here in vancouver man..we live in an environmental paradise. Start hiking or mountain biking or snowboarding in thw winter or something..we are surrounded by mountains, ocean and rainforest in this city..might as well make the most of it.

That is a very nice post. I have definitely been trying all those things with the same, if not more, effort as substances with very mixed results.
I am a very talented self-taught gymnast but I can never seem to stick with any sort of frequency of exercise. I know this is common but whether practicing with friends or alone, in my house, in a park, in my backyard I go from "This is fun, I am going to get so good!" to "Okay, I'll do it..."
to "I don't want to do it" to "I should be doing it but I can't bring myself to"

Socializing is much much more complicated for the fact that I suffer from social anxiety which I am currently in a program which is working very well for relieving the anxiety but the current issue is that I can stop my anxiety and interact just fine but I do not enjoy the interactions at all and get bored very quickly of them. Appearently this will eventually change but for the time being and ever since I was 12 or so this has been the case. Either I'm anxious or I'm bored while socializing.
When I work/play with kids it is completely different and I really enjoy that so I hope the program will eventually help me get that with adults as well
But anyway.

On a much much lighter note:
I actually just made a discovery that has produced reliably positive results 3 times in a row.
I eat very healthy eating mainly low glycemic index carbs via pastas with loads of bright colored veggies and beans and clearly that is healthy but maybe not ample for me. Recently while watching an episode of "FRIENDS" where Ross is high on maple candy (way over-acting for humor) and a thought struck me and I took a note "Sugar buzz? How does that fit in?"

The tests are very much in the infancy but I have had anxiety-free effects with pure dextrose and caffeine combination 3 times in a row with the "comedown" to my delight being extremely mild compared to the "high" with paradoxical effects.

Of course the big question I am now wondering (Hoping!) is whether a simple combination of "empty carbs" and other foods alone could be used to help me negating any need for substances to utilize my massively gated potential energy, thoughts, motivation and happiness.

Well white sugar is definately effecting many peoples behaviour so I suggest looking into that matter. And most people can't live without sugar, I know I can't. And it's a high/"drug" as well...

If you want proper blood sugar levels you should just eat more fruit and cut out other sugar sources. Even things like pasta are not a very healthy glucose source in comparison to eating lots of fresh fruit. We evoloved on fresh fruit..it is what our brains are meant to have. If you dont eat enough fruit you are just depriving the brain. Taking things like refined carbs etc as your main glucose source will definatily be worse and give you rapid sugar spikes, and then a crash..the more you do this the more you will crash and feel burned out.

If you eat enough fruit, steadily all day long you might find that you will have more energy.

Using caffine to not feel burned out is pointless in my expereince. I used to do it to get through work all the time..I got to the point where I was drinking like a thermous a day..and I was more burned out than ever. I have more energy now without drinking it than I did when I was drinking it. I drink green tea or mate maybe 1 or 2 times a week but that is it.

Using pure dextrose in coffee is not healthy at all. Thats like asking for unstable blood sugar and diabetes in the future. Eat more fruit. It is so simple.

It makes no sense to try to live without sugar anyway. the brain requires it as we evolved eating tons of high glucose containing fruits..look at other primates for an example. The idea that we need to cut out sugar is like asking for brain damage. The real problem is that refined sugar is not a complete food source..eating tons of fruit all day will not give you hypoglycemia down the road..eating refined sugar all day will.

If you want to sweeten tea or coffee..at least use honey, and raw honey is the best. Honey is more of a complete food than white or brown sugar and still has some enzymes etc in it. Not as good as fruit but better than pure sugar.