just read the article on msn
here is the link
http://green.in.msn.com/...px?cp-documentid=5241002

this is the unbelieveable , while people are are fighting a battle over legalization/illegalization , over oil and over political unrest in the middle east and other shit that does not really matter , the planet is DYING and so are we with it

the government is hell bent on diverting our attention from the real issue facing mankind , which is SAVING THE PLANET , saving my home , saving your home , saving our home
all the artificial human problems like legalization/illegalization , oil problems and political unrest in the middle east are just bullshit created by the governments of the world and greedy fffffhuhcks to place our attention away from the real issue , i call these problems artificial because they are all created by ignorant men and would go easily if people decide or these men get a good dose of intelligence

but what about the oceans ? sure the problem has still been created by ignorant men but its not like these problems can be solved easily , man is stupid and has no understanding of nature , in reality science is the pursuit of knowledge and man needs this knowledge for he is dumb and does not know shit so he learns from nature with help of science , however when man creates problems he cant solve , what do we do then ? what do we do ?

how can we save our home?? are we ready to put aside our shitty problems and face the real issue ? will we be able to save oue home ??

With all due respect, the planet will renew itself regardless of any human activities. It's done it before and it will do it again. When you say save the planet, you mean save your self / our selves and that's an important distinction.

The problem is not science and technology, it is economics and education, as well as patent and trade laws.

That's a dangerous assumption. The man made ASSAULTS on the planet have changed VASTLY in SCOPE and is SIZE over time. Renewal after an assault of small scope and size doesn't guarantee a renewal after an assault of much LARGER scope and size.

How do scales compare between the asteroid that killed the dinnosaurs or the giant impact that separated the moon from earth, or the biggest volcanic erruptions or ice ages or other natural disasters that happened, with the effect humans have on earth?

btw I agree we have to try to be as sustainable as possible but I think "save the earth" is a bit of an exageration. Its rather imo about sustainability and taking responsibility for the consequences of our actions, and how they can affect not only us but the future generations, as well as the different species around the planet, trying to diminish unnecessary suffering for them.

It sucks! I don't want the reefs to die. Reefs are my favorite ecosystem and they will be all gone within my lifetime.

I'm torn though. Part of me wants to dedicate my life toward working on environmental policy issues. Another part of me loves the life I have now. These stories give me some guilt.

The best I can do without massive disruption to my family is to teach my own children reverence for natural ecosystems and to try and be a conscientious consumer.

We should all do our part to keep our planet as clean and healthy as possible, after all we are all only visitors. I am all for cleaner energy souces, recycling and a self sustainable life style, but I dont buy into the Chicken Little Syndrome the gov't pitches. I'd be more concerned with an astaroid hitting earth than the earth dying by the hands of man. Just do your part and teach your children to do the same and we will be ok.

truth

Many who should know claim that global warming was the cause of the greatest extinction event that has ever occurred, and that we are currently in a huge extinction period.

It's not earth I'm worried about, but the continued existance of our species.
Our behaviour is a slow sado-masochistic destruction in which we victimize ourselves and all other lifeforms.
The planet will survive us, but will mankind survive itself? Plenty of species have not survived mankind and now mankind itself is next.

More and more I begin to see mankind as hopelessly insane & lowly intelligent(no matter how much useless knowledge we have accumilated)
The prospect of mankind dying out seems to be the only realistic one. And we owe it to ourselves.
It does suck for those of us who love nature and DO mind the ecosystem, but it's just too late.
I wouldn't be so hopeless if I saw at least SOME global progress in mankind's thinking and acting, but appart from fancy technological updates, mankind
has been stuck at an appaling, barbaric low level with complete absence of any true moral consciousness/awareness...... Forget about it.

Mankind will destroy itself and perhaps a few small communities of people will remain scattered here and there.
Perhaps that is the only scenario in which true change is possible; If as good as all of the established order is whiped out of existance.

Hopefully it will be closer to mad max or lord of the flies than water world. I couldn't handle having to drink my pee.

the planet may renew itself as many extinctions have happened before us , however all the extinctions that happened before were due to conditions such as meteors , volcanic eruptions and other climatic factors which were all natural in nature , they were caused not by intention of an intelligent/ignorant human being , the dinosaurs did not posses nuclear weapons and other bullshit that military is working on everyday

when i say save the planet , yes i mean save myself / our selves but not only that i also say save the trees and the animals and the oceans and the rivers for they are mine , if none of the human beings want to take responsiblity I WILL , the plants and animals , the oceans belong to me , so does the sky and this whole planet is mine so i am not really so happy when human beings just do whatever bullshit they like on my planet ( if you love this planet too , then it is yours aswell so pls treat it properly )
this planet belong to me and i belong to the planet
this planet belongs to you and you belong to the planet

science and technology is a gift that human kind has got but it still does not know how to use it properly and in the most appropriate way and that is a problem , the same medicine that saves you can also kill you if you don't know how to use it appropriately and with respect ,

economics and education are the best things we have going for us , we have more money on the planet then we ever had before , its just that few individuals have concentrated that money and thus it cannot be used appropriately , the planet is not poor , literally the planet has abundance of gold , diamonds and other precious metals , not only that whats more important is the planet can produce food and water which to me is more important than urine coloured metal we call gold
there is such abundance on this planet of everything that not a single human being , not a single animal and not a single plant would suffer , this suffering , hunger , poverty and all the other bullshit is of human making and only human beings have the power to make it all better

this whole post has been exaggerated above the usual and i did write EXTINCTION in capital letters on purpose , for it needs to be exaggerated otherwise human beings keep concentrating on what is not important and forget the real issues they need to be working on
, infact polticians exaggerate shit so wonderfully that human beings forget what is important ?

let us do whatever each of us can , let us recycle the garbage and plant more trees , let us teach children what is right , let us forget what the politicans and the government is doing and let us live a life of truth by doing the things that are needed to be done , we dont have to wait for politicians and the governments to save the planet , we can do it ourselves , all of us
let us keep planting trees , let us sow a seed everyday , let us keep our habits clean , let us recycle , let us not use our automobiles for short distances , the world will change when we will and that is the only way

we can save the planet and we will , we can save ourselves and we will

I agree with your sentiments but not with your methods.
The value of things is not governed by any external force. The total value of the earth in a monetary sense is minuscule in comparison to the richness of the earth in material sense. Take the Quechua's and the Spaniards, the Incan civilization distributed their gold riches in the public domain for decorative purposes. The Spaniards utterly gutted and enslaved the civilization for the purpose of extracting the Incan gold deposits presumably to bolster their leverage in the emerging West Indian spice trades and fledgling capitalist operations that emerged around it. The emergence of capitalism in this sense was driven by the luxury goods markets and to this day luxury goods have driven growth. Luxury goods lose their value as markets become more saturated, hence why spices these days are deemed more of a necessity, but the structural changes that the emergent markets produced are left intact, they become reliable cash cows but fail to produce new capital. In order to create new capital new luxury goods must be found, and so growth is not just encouraged, it is entirely necessary for capitalist models to work.

Fast forward to the end of the lightning fast growth of the 20th century where a complex and effective global infrastructure has emerged. What luxury goods are to us now are the product of scientific and intellectual pursuits, what had been considered luxury goods have either succumb to the politics of supply and demand to artificially maintain high prices, or have left the domain of what could be considered luxury. What we trade in now is intellectual property, in a sense, recipes. Particularly in the United States the political and legal environment is one which is designed specifically to defend intellectual property, and you can look to the manner in which large information technology and software companies openly trade and sue over intellectual property to raise capital and to try to cripple one another. The issue here is that as a result we our taught to desire the oppression of ourselves, we inadvertently support the system that requires us to hand over our personal autonomy by making us reliant on private enterprise.

Intellectual property laws were originally written to protect the artist, to protect works of art, so that the artist could continue to produce books, music, imagery without losing capital to counterfeits and copies. The value of these items was linked to the capacity of the artist and what those who purchased their art were willing to pay for it. This gave a value to psychic products and enabled talented individuals to make a living from doing what they do.

Enter modern day chemical, pharmaceutical, and software industries. These industries produce products of material and psychic value. The cost to these companies for the material resources is minuscule. The value of their products come from the thought that went into them. It is those thoughts that add value to these industries. However, in terms of science and technology, an enterprise which dissects and draws universal conclusion from the physical world, the capacity for these industries to maintain a monopoly on knowledge that can directly benefit mankind gives them a power that is envied by political institutions. Political institutions themselves become reliant on the knowledge that these industries hold and become subservient to their interests [read: in the US there is a blatant revolving door and pork barreling culture which beggars belief with respect to the intentions of the founding fathers and the seperation of powers.

Essentially, these industries rely on you not knowing or being allowed to know the universal truths (such as they may be according to the prevailing philosophy of the time), and being able to clamp down on those who do. Now this gets very ugly when it comes to drugs because drugs have a massive array of ego affirming and ego dissolving properties which mean a lot of people can chat a lot of crap and a lot of people can get easily confused - terms such as universal truths become hugely unwise and I am loathed to post this come to think of it but I will anyway because I've been typing for a while and it would be a waste.

In todays world, large corporations are attributed the same legal status as an individual. They have been afforded the capacity to utilize the protection given to them by intellectual property laws that were developed to protect the cultural industries (industries which became massively centralized with the advent of broadcast television and the printing press, allowing those in power to quickly and effectively disseminate the "record of the moment", in other words, directly influence the status quo (2.4 children, suburbs, 4x4, drugs are bad.)) These laws enable them to usurp the nobility of scientific work and academic pursuits for the benefit of mankind by effectively allowing them to pool resources under one name, protected by an infrastructure that draws resources from the people but protects the corporation.

Given the emergence of the Internet and the consequent eradication of spatio temporal setbacks (time needed to transmit ideas) it has become remarkably easy to, say, develop an operating system from a disparate network of intelligent programmers. (http://www.lessig.org/) What this does is radically alter the economic infrastructure. The easy transmission of ideas and the continued development of new technologies (which inherently relies on access to old technologies) allows interested parties to naturally converge (with the help of google) and speed up the process.

In terms of education, we are bombarded with disparate technical knowledge subject to an array of highly rationalized exams that could as easily favor those with a photographic memory as much as those with a genuine insight and talent for whatever subject they study. These highly rationalized exams are designed to pinpoint the few who may be talented as cheaply and effectively as possible for the benefit of the existing industries. see http://www.youtube.com/w...;feature=player_embedded

This does not benefit our society as a whole. It teaches us that we must be reliant on industries for the wellbeing of ourselves. It fails to transmit the overall theatrical piece by forcing us to stare glumly at the reference book. Given that the Internet is the worlds biggest reference book and that it is fast becoming a human right to have access to it, we have reached a stage in our history where our material infrastructure is nearly complete (at least for the western world, hence the move from old imperial world powers (The UK and The US) to service based economies (i.e. doing the admin for other countries whose infrastructures are not complete). In such an economy new value generally follows new trends and behaviors, things of psychic value and not physical value. This is because the value of material, infrastructure industries has plateaued, a cash cow.

Now the turning point, and this is probably why there's so much fuss about it, is global warming, the destruction of the planet etc... These issues are caused directly because of the centralizations of power. These centralizations can be observed materially by the massive wealth of cities. As things of material value begin to plateau or fall, the conman come out to play. They rely on the poor knowledge of the consumer to make money [read: quantitative finance]. Quantitative financial methods failed because those who enjoyed the intellectual challenge of efficiently distributing capital in the financial markets [read: efficiently utilizing all the RAM on their computer] were abused by those who are interested in making massive returns for investors, see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ed2FWNWwE3I. There is a failure of communication, and there is a failure to educate (which is a fault one can attribute to the quants as well).

What the Spaniards stole from the Incans was collective conscious that enabled them to value gold as a decorative and interpersonal asset. What Western Civilization has successfully achieved in the latter half of the 20th century, is to redistribute the value of knowledge as a form of universal progress to a form of personal enrichment. And that is an ugly achievement. What is required is a fundamental structural change in the manner in which industries are allowed to accumulate capital, and for what purposes capital should be allocated to encourage growth. This requires a radical cultural shift which can only be achieved by education. Throwing more capital in a certain direction simply encourages more con men to accumulate in any given field. We are entering a new age of barbarism characterized by deceit and greed, certainly by a denial of spirituality.

What the Internet enables is a massive decentralization of knowledge, we can teach people anywhere in the world how to make things they otherwise could not make for themselves, with instant access to help from people who have this knowledge. People learn better this way as they can correlate psychic theoretical concepts to their material counterparts. Environmental issues inherently rely on individual and local efforts, and this form of knowledge transfer plays well to contribute to these efforts. It is also in this massive decentralization that universal concepts are put to their most rigorous tests, and this enables a plethora of new intellectual challenges to emerge that would otherwise be missed from the safety of the large corporate structure. What needs to happen then is that more value is attributed to individual efforts than to what organization can bid the lowest price and cut the most corners. This, in the eyes of the corporation amounts to asking for a pay rise for giving away trade secrets for free.

The idea of exaggerating the issues simply polarizes the sides of the coin, and is a form of emotional warfare, the world may fall to pieces and die but that won't matter if you can construct your own ecosystem and sip wine. Case in point

Anyway, that was long winded rubbish, but the moral of the story is there are too many over fed middle management types

Jin respects that totally



Jin agrees with you 100 %
your post correctly represents the world as it is today perfectly
however something needs to be done ,

we have to become the changes we want to see in the world , and the world will change

Jin has recently started to collect seeds of all fruits and vegetables he eats and is planting them wherever he can , earlier he used to throw the seeds into the garbage after eating the fruits

Jin is also trying to get a hold of a species of plants known as the Russian Vine , which is a highly invasive species that takes over everything and covers plain land with plant in no time , also this makes it hard for anyone to use that land for anything as its hard to get rid of the species , Jin thinks this is the alexander of the plants and will help Jin make his city more green , and cause major disruption for construction companies and other people who want to wipe the green from the face of the planet to build more houses or make more factories , Jin is more than happy to cause some mischivious disruption in his city with plants taking over everything and is currently inspiring his friends to go every sunday and plant trees in various spots ,

smoking MJ all day on a sunday and having fun with friends while planting seeds is wonderful , it is fun and it inspires more people to do the same , its a lot of fun too as earlier his friends would be just smoking MJ all day on sunday without doing anything constructive , Jin recommends it to all

please take a walk with your friends whenever you are free and keep throwing seeds into wet mud if its raining , or just sow them an inch or two below the ground , also please try collecting the seeds from fruits and vegetables and not throw them into the garbage , even throwing them out on the ground anywhere around your neighbourhood is better than throwing the seeds in the garbage

I need to get me some of that Russian Vine.
Would be sweet to seriously thwart the constructionsite at the end of my street, which used to be a high grassland with a huge, mighty old tree in the middle.
I don't really feel like having a 20 story flat in my street.

I too have started planting more seeds of fruits. I eat loads of cherries, strawberries and other berries. Need to start planting them in the artificial forrest-park near my house.

extinctions happen, have throughout the history of the planet.
so do successions (primary, secondary, etc.)

but those facts don't negate the fact that our existence on this planet is purely symbiotic; we
rely completely on a balanced ecosystem.

Extincions happen, because ecosystems can become completely upset by meteorshowers, large asteroid-impacts, ice ages and global volcanic eruptions.
But I think we will be the first species to become extinct by it's own hands.
We are upsetting the ecosystem ourselves and by that we are basically sawing off the branch on which we stand.

This news comes synchronistic with the news of the brazilian logging companies getting the green light to chip away the last of the amazon forrest and
hire thugs to kill off the natives.

Can we do anything at all, except discuss it on a forum as this destruction happily, mercilessly continues?

Fallopia baldschuanica, aka Russian vine, aka mile-a-minute, is a devil of a climber , this plant is virtually unkillable , It grows far too big, too fast and too ugly even for a large garden. In a small garden there wouldn't be standing room after the first season

this plant never attacks forest regions , it only invades areas near human population or those made by human population , obviously this is not a dumb plant and knows who and what to attack and will never attack the forest regions of mimosa and caapi , this plant will fight the war against ingnorant humanity provided it gets a little help from conscious human beings who can MISCHIVIOUSLY plant it as a great practical joke on our system and a prank to help humanity out , to eradicate this plant once planted will take effort and possible cost $$ to whoever wants to eradicate it , ha ha may the plant Gods be happy to hear this , everybody lets make our neighbourhoods into forests , also plant it on future construction sites so as this will cost the construction company $$ , this is the GREEN PRANK PROJECT

sources -

http://www.guardian.co.u...log/2009/sep/24/gardens1

http://www.bbc.co.uk/gar.../module5/climbers1.shtml


also if somebody could cross this with MJ what would you have or even mimosa :idea:

I love the way you think, Jin.
Any idea where I might obtain the seeds or cuttings of this plant?
And won't it be difficult to import or even buy at all?

I heard that certain species of Bamboo are also impossible to get rid off and grow far too fast and far too tall also.
They are known to survive the harshest winters and if even 1 piece of root is left in the ground after removal, it'll be right back in no time.
Hmmz Need to do more research in extremely invasive, fastgrowing plants that are near impossible to get rid of.

In combination with the right Compost Tea(Check Youtube for this) it might grow even faster and bigger.



And now back to the Topic: Marine Life.
We better set up basins and large aquaria and start keeping and breeding marine life forms ourselves.
Sturgeons, Salmons, Bass, Crabs, Lobsters, Sea plants, Plankton...etc
As many people as possible should start home-breeding these and every now and then release some into the oceans.
For now that's the only thing we can do, that I can think of.

moz
Good post, you've made alot of reasonable points, and good links.


RSA Animate - Changing Education Paradigms



Education is among one of the many things messed up with the current systems of thought, the view towards it is so boxtied. you saw the picture of the kid sitting down in the chair with all sorts of media around and everything just put infront of him by its his culture, if you think of children as i do, as blank slates from the moment they were born, then to grow up into well adjusted individuals in a corrupt system is as asking a bit too much.. what are they expecting a mericle? its not going to happen unless something happens to make it happen. what are the best steps toward this? i have no idea right now but the systems of laws are pretty well in the way as far as i can tell
and maybe un-hip law don’t have to be broken down brick by brick by law itself, maybe we can just surpass them..

-
on a side note, these people could be of the same efforts to released previously unreleased 'private' documents and messages, gettin things

across- good to know that just about anything can be broken into on the web.. or can it not?

http://blogs.telegraph.c...opogenic-global-warming/

http://english.aljazeera...6/20116242002307617.html

quite possibly cyber-warfare could be the key to a revolution with lasting effects.. so now its just in a fight of words to see what we really mean by it all
the best of intentions seem wonderful here, but could something like this really be conceived of?



SKA-
‘And now back to the Topic: Marine Life.
We better set up basins and large aquaria and start keeping and breeding marine life forms ourselves.
Sturgeons, Salmons, Bass, Crabs, Lobsters, Sea plants, Plankton...etc
As many people as possible should start home-breeding these and every now and then release some into the oceans.
For now that's the only thing we can do, that I can think of.’

i wonder if enough people in big enough groups of like minds could use skill and trade to build an aquaria of whatever sort for animals that need it, then see if we can't do something to allow for the planet the ability to sustain its life again, and for as long as it/we can in a timely effort. There is an over population and we're in its mitst.


Edit:-

SKA is this the bamboo?
it might be a little scary if it gets out of hand in some regions, but it can be eaten as food that's good to know.

thanks SKA i will look into it immediately , i also love the way you think
i believe even if a few people do something , even something tremedously small like maybe throwing some water over a dried plant , it will help , also getting the russian vine is no problem , many will send you the seeds or cuttings but not if you're in australia , as you know their policy regarding any plants

these days where i live it has started raining like crazy , it used to always rain at this time of the year but what is new is the thunder is louder than any nuclear blast ,
i almost fell down to the ground last time i heard the thunder a few days ago (funny i know) , but i was not alone about 10-12 other human beings had the same reaction and fell to the ground , we thought the whole place where we were was collapsing or something , but that was not the case it was only the thunder ,its only getting louder , i guess this is a way for nature to ultimately make its voice heard and my God we will hear it one day even if it is the end

where i live there are a few marine basins already set up , but the assholes are using it for fish farming , hopefully we can set up our own basins however it will cost us some , for this we need some community support from our neighbourhoods and convince them to spend some $$ to do such a thing ,
also it damn shitty that i here eat macdonalds,dominos or whatever and my little fish friends are eating plastic and garbage in the ocean , its very sad that humans think this whole planet belongs to them and animals and trees have no right over it , so is this what it is , i will eat the best and my animal friends will eat garbage