I have to agree with you, picatris. I've drank Aya countless times with Chaliponga, Chacruna, and even Caapi wtih Xtal DMT. There are some slight differences in the effects or each, but even a SMALL amount of 5-meo-dmt in Chaliponga would really alter the effects, more than i can detect. I find more differences between each cerimonies than I do with what's in my brew. Without tastebuds I probably couldn't tell in a blind test which brew contained which.

I have not yet seen any reference to there being 5-meo-dmt in Chaliponga except in a few samples they found it in miniscule amounts. More research needs to be done to prove or disprove, and although I would like that my experiences be evidence, they are not, they are only my experiences.

5-meo-dmt is most certianly NOT the major alkaloid, I propose it is a trace alkaloid at most. I wouldn't be having beautiful flowing visions more similar to Xtal dmt than Chacruna if 5-meo is present....this is a debate 69Ron and I have been in for a while. I concede there might be trace amounts, but not enough to alter the experience more than a hair.

You must have had a batch with little 5MeO in it. I swear that i would detect the presence of even a gram of chaliponga if it was added to a chacruna/caapi brew. And chaliponga/caapi brews are most definately very different for me than chacruna/caapi or mimosa/caapi.

Are there some published chemical analysis on Diplopterys cabrerana showing significant 5-meo-dmt content or are we relying on anecdotal reports and subjective judgements as the evidence that its there?

There are a few but 5-MeO-DMT is very potent orally with an MAOI, so even trace amounts affect the trip. It doesn't need to be present in large amounts to feel it. It’s many times stronger than DMT. Also, the presence of DMT in chaliponga boosts the effectiveness of the 5-MeO-DMT. SWIM knows this from experiences of mixing DMT with tiny amounts of 5-MeO-DMT. Even amounts of 5-Meo-DMT that are undetectable by smoking, become evident when mixed with DMT.

I find the conclusion that chaliponga contains no 5-MeO-DMT because some people say that the combination of 5-MeO-DMT with MAOI is dangerous and the combination of chaliponga and caapi isn't, a bit far fetched.

I think it's a pretty sure thing that chaliponga does contain 5-MeO-DMT.

It seems to me that if normally 1 to 2mg of the stuff is needed to have effects and caapi lowers this to about a 4th, then only 0.25 to 0.5 mg is needed to have the same effects. This way you could explain both claims: that chaliponga does contain DMT and is used in conjunction with caapi in a safe manner, and that taking several milligrams of the stuff with MAOI's can be dangerous.

The fact that a few people have died of the combo, but with no dosage mentioned, doesn't say it's dangerous by definition. With substances that are active in tiny amounts the margins between a safe dose and an overdose are small.

Many scales are known to have a standard margin of 2mg, wich is not such a big deal when it comes to DMT, but wich is a very big deal when it comes to 5-MeO-DMT. Someone could easily O.D from as a result of such an error. If someone would mistake 5-MeO-DMT for DMT, then he could easily take 20 times a normal dose, wich is way too much. There could be many explanations for the 5-MeO-DMT/MAOI related deaths, that do not nessecarily lead to the conclusion that this combo is dangerous by itself.

The thing is that no one measured 5-MeO-DMT in leaves of chaliponga, or ever registered it. See here:

http://www.erowid.org/li..._part1_diplopterys.shtml

Granted, most of these studies are from the 60's, but they were able to detect traces of the substance and also bufotenine, also in trace amounts. The only record I could find is a mention in Ratsch that refers that the stems may have 5-MeO-DMT. Unfortunately, the Ratsch mentioned study is missing from the bibliography and is uncheckable

Nice post picatris, it would be interesting if anyone has any solid evidence of 5-meo in chaliponga, other than anecdotal bioassaying,

SWIM has never seen 5meo in chaliponga, at least what is supposed to be xylene/limonene/ether extracted alkaloids from a pH of ~10 for him feel like just dmt.

Gas chromatography - mass spectroscopy (GC-MS) has been around since the 50s. It is possible to analyze plant material without totally destroying it. Furthermore there are other methods for isolating and separating compounds, like column chromatography. And I would not even mention the absurd amount of solvents a modern lab has access to and uses, occasionally at temperatures and pressure levels impossible to work with without very expensive equipment.

Even in the 60s, they had passed the kitchen-sink chemistry used here in the Nexus

OK so the only proof that we have of chaliponga containing 5meo is 69ron's feeling?

How about virola theidora? are there studies showing that it contains 5meo?

5-MeO-DMT has a pretty unmistakable feeling. Also, we have Fractal's comparison of chaliponga versus bufotenine.

I think claiming 'its a pretty sure thing chaliponga has 5-meo' while not citing even one single published paper where it shows any significant amount of it, and the only evidence being some subjective reports of people that claim to know what 5-meo feels like, is not very reliable IMHO.

There's just sooooo many factors that can come into play for affecting one's subjective experience (placebo, self-suggestion, set and setting, different unknown alkaloids and plant compound mixtures, etc etc etc), its far from being an accurate analytical instrument for identifying alkaloids.

This is not to say its for sure not there but I think we should exercise some caution before making claims of alkaloid content in plants so confidently

You guys believe what you like. 5-MeO-DMT is in nearly all the chaliponga and all the Virola theiodora resin SWIM has used. SWIM can extract it and verify it himself. If you guys can’t or these so called “experts” can’t, well that’s too bad. You're doing something wrong.

It's definitely there. It's as sure as the sun in the sky to SWIM. It's amazing that there is such skepticism out there.

Since SWIM cannot send you his chaliponga or Virola theiodora resin for you to personally test to verify SWIM’s statements are in fact correct, there is no point in arguing about this. We will go back and forth on it endlessly with no resolution to the argument.

Ron you really sound not very convincing. So how do you come to the conclusion of chaliponga and virola containing 5meo? Just subjective bioassay or did you extract it yourself? And if you extracted, how did you know that what you extracted was exactly 5meo and not something else? Again only subjective experience?

And how did us tasting your chaliponga or virola convince us of the presence of 5meo? SWIM has not had personal experience of pure research chemical 5meo for comparison so it wouldn't really help, would it?

So you are really amazed that we are skeptic, and that we dont take someone's subjective experience on the internet as Truth? Youre saying it would be more reasonable if we would say "Oh yeah ok ron says there's 5-meo-dmt in chaliponga and even though there isnt even ONE scientific paper presented so far corroborating with his claim, 69ron MUST be right, so its a fact" ?

I would hope you expect more critical thinking from people in this community.....

by the way, even if I extracted chaliponga and tried bioassaying the results, and even if it subjectively seemed similar to pure 5-meo-dmt, how would I be sure its 5-meo-dmt and not a mix of other alkaloids or self suggestion or all those other variables I mentioned in the last post? Maybe it can be taken as a good indication, but its no unquestionable evidence.

I dont have an analytical equipment for testing it to be sure, so I just couldnt know, meaning I just wouldnt be making alkaloid content suppositions with such certainty (neither saying its there or saying its not there.. I just dont know). Do you have? Did you do some chromatography or mass spec or MP testing or something of the sort, and if so can you share the results here? Or was it subjective experience, as inf asked?

I would really love to know better about chali's alk content, and also if it depends a lot on the particular batch or if they are all more or less similar

I am going to second Ron's claim that 5meodmt appears to be sensitive to pH and thus degrades easily in many extraction procedures. SWIM failed extracting it from virola peruviana's which is supposed to contain it as the main alkaloid. Twice. The only common thing between extraction methods was the pH and hydroxide used as base.

However yes the only way to know for sure if 5meodmt is in the plants currently being discussed is to analyze them. Although if they are active and feel like 5meodmt its a good indication that its there (its quite a unique feeling substance). Its not proof however.

The following Virola species do contain 5meodmt and related alkaloids: calophylla elongata (same as theiodora) calophylloidea and cuspidata. Specifically in the resin and inner bark.

This is according to the book: mind altering and poisonous plants of the world by michael wink and ben erik van wyk.

Almost everybody who uses chaliponga, will notice effects that completely match the description of 5-MeO-DMT's effects. The effects are too specific for this to be coincidence and they are also to specific to be self-suggested.
That is like saying that DMT is maybe not psycho-active at all and that the effects we get from it are maybe self-sugestion and placebo.

Here are some of the typicalities:
1-Strong tryptamine-like psychedelic effects without much visual effects. Open eye visual effects are mostly seeing tracers and swirling.
2-Strong psychologic effects characterized by the sense of alienation: everything feels strange, unknown, cold and alien.
3-Seeing visions that are void of colour. Mostly black/white with hints of watery blue and green colours, they are very pale.
4-The notion of 'real' changes.
5-Visions share a simmilarity with mescaline visions, but they lack the colours and the warmth of mescaline.

Find any other chemical that produces the combination of these specific effects, that's not a 5-MeO-something like 5-MeO-DPT, 5-MeO-AMT, 5-MeO-DiPT, 5-MeO-MiPT, etc.

I know that the claims of me, 69ron and fractal enchantment aren't like scientific proof, but it's like when you eat something and you can taste there's garlic in it: ofcourse it's always possible that there is something that tastes like garlic, that's actually something else.
That technical possibility does not make the suspicion that there's garlic in the food a worthless claim that's as good or ba as any other claim: it is a hell of a lot more likely that there IS garlic in the food, than that strawberry-icecream was added instead.

HA HA HA HA! That’s hilarious.

I don’t expect you or anyone else to believe anything I write is 100% fact. Like I said, SWIM can find it. Believe it or not. You can believe SWIM is crazy if you like. That’s fine with me. But SWIM knows it’s there for absolute certainty.



You’re getting me all wrong here. I don’t expect anything less. The Nexus is filled with some very highly intelligent people. I just don’t really want to argue about this. 5-MeO-DMT is definitely in chaliponga and Virola resin. As for Virola resin, there are many papers that prove this. The fact that some papers failed to find it in chaliponga doesn’t mean its not there. I’m sure many just didn’t look for it in chaliponga because they were looking for DMT only, so they didn’t list it as being present.

If I study the universe and I’m not interested in Earth and I don’t put data on Earth in my findings, that doesn’t mean Earth isn’t there. You have to be careful about reading these studies.

A lack of a finding can mean:
A ) they didn’t look for the item (this is pretty common).
B ) flaws in their equipment or methods used made it impossible to find the item.
C ) they found it but didn’t take note of it (this is pretty common).
D ) they had misidentified material (this happens quite a lot).
E ) the plant material was too old (5-MeO-DMT degrades pretty fast. In Virola theiordora resin that isn't properly treated, enzymes present in the resin completely destroy the 5-MeO-DMT within a few hours.)
F ) it wasn’t there in the plant material.


The fact that SWIM can find it in chaliponga means to me that a lot of those tests had condition A, B, C, D, or E in there tests, and not F.



You can be pretty damn sure it’s 5-MeO-DMT if:
A ) the melting point is that of 5-MeO-DMT.
B ) it’s active sublingually, orally, and by vaporization in the dose range of 5-MeO-DMT.
C ) It tastes and smells like 5-MeO-DMT.
D ) It’s duration of effects matches 5-MeO-DMT.
E ) It’s effects profile match that of 5-MeO-DMT.
F ) You have it tested professionally.

If all but F match exactly, the likelihood that you have 5-MeO-DMT is still extremely high.

SWIM has never ever experienced two different psychedelic compounds that have exactly the same effects and match from A-E exactly. So for SWIM, if A-E match 5-MeO-DMT exactly, he’s absolutely sure it’s 5-MeO-DMT, and he doesn’t need F to verify it.

If you need F that's fine for you. SWIM doesn’t. It’s like asking someone to verify that the ball of fire I see in the sky is the sun and not a meteor. Sure both make light but the sun is not a meteor. I don’t need confirmation of that from some study taken.

Being skeptical is a good thing. My skepticism is aimed at those tests that failed to find it present in chaliponga. The likelihood of that is astronomical when A-E match exactly.

SWIM can have his 5-MeO-DMT tested professionally. He's had this done before with bufotenine. The problem is his friend can't just use the equipment whenever he wants. He needs a valid reason for access to it. The equipment is pricey, so it’s in a locked room, and entry to the room is logged.

I’ve been wondering about the cheap $30 Project Star Spectrometer. How accurate is this? Could it be used with something like 5-MeO-DMT and get somewhat reliable results, or is that not at all possible with such a cheap device?

I know very little about how this works. I assume you need a mass spectrometer specifically.

Yep, I agree that just because there are no printed papers doesnt mean its not there, I never said nor thought otherwise



yep I also agree, thats why I said subjective experience by itself could indicate but wasnt absolute proof and thats why I asked if youve done a melting point or other tests with what you extracted from chaliponga. Did you (or SWIY), and it perfectly matched the 5-meo data? Thats interesting!

Another question im wondering: How much percentage was there of the isolated alkaloid (or alkaloids) that are being considered as 5-meo-dmt, more or less, in the chali extracted?

btw, out of curiosity, how was it separated from the dmt, so that you could smell/taste it separately?