So, dreamer, if you find yourself diagnosed with, say, cancer... this is to be your sole treatment plan until such a time as it's proven ineffective? Don't you think that all of the things you've mentioned above might work best in conjunction with a doctor's care? How will you even know whether or not they're working unless your condition is monitored by regular test results?

Protip: These are all preventative measures that have been demonstrated extensively in the medical literature to significantly decrease your chances of getting cancer (and a host of other preventable lifestyle related diseases) in the first place. Visiting a physician regularly is absolutely part of the healthy lifestyle changes I outlined, apologies for not expressly including that in the list.

Keep in the mind the critical thinking and doing your own research part. Just because a doctor who was trained in a medical program heavily subsidized by corporate interests suggests something doesn't negate your responsibility for doing your own thorough research and engaging in rigid skeptical inquiry to discern if their suggestion is the right choice for you.

Edit: You should approach any doctor with at least as much skepticism as you would approach any shaman, both are working with blinders on within a very narrowly defined belief system based in incomplete information, at the same time both likely have a lot of training and experience/information that you do not. It's always worth weighing ALL your options and making your decisions based on ALL available information. It is just as impudent to deny the value of last several millenia of indigenous healing wisdom traditions as it is to deny the value of the last several centuries of western technological medical advancement.

As a starting point I only red the O.P. So I might miss pages of discussion but it's too long a thread.
This topic is interesting, might have been brought up a number of time here too...

To be honest, I don't like to mimic without questionning others cultures practices, now our, nowadays seems to lack of shamanism and true spirituality / raw spirits work . Let me get into this, of course therea re number of pradctice and also, some may ( for their own good) stay hidden from the crowd ( but we are a crowd aren 't we ? ), so some of us, or maybe most of us, did try seek alternative, inspired by amazonian bassin but not only. As Anna Pointed, some did the northern america type of sweat lodge and peyote thing too for some time before digging n,n-DMT and ayahuasca or its allies.

Now for me it's all the same. but it doesn't come with out interference of the cultural matter.
We are likely doing syncretism when practicing, which isn't necessarely bad, but is risky perhaps.
There is something too traditionalist ( or don't question it kind of dogma ) with most ceremony events I'm not comfoprtable with. On the other hand, doing it in a sloppy western approach, with intention like : " we'll see what will happen from this chaos will yield " kind be a dangerous path ... No much track for safety there, being 100 percent experimental have it's toll of risks.

But taking fro granting evcen 1000's year old tradition cold be to, to some extent in my opinion ( both could eventually lead to delusion ).

So far, am still not completely done with the perfect, defined "modern western shamanism", but I can attest, all in all, I and likely "we" rely on experience as much as possible, experience AND honest interpretation ( honest, as is, even if it's a hard pill to swallow you'll still take it, as a lesson at least ). Realize prespective and interpretation plays a big role IN human experience and try to grow form this all.
To me this two point are crucial to avoid delusion ( one of the dangers of such practice ).
Now am surprised everyday by life and what it can teach to a listening mind.

still digging the modalities of " modern shamanism" ..

If you really want to keep going at it and bring this back up....

You said multiple times that entire indigenous cultures know nothing while you know everything. You seem very attached to the idea of people thinking you are some special psychedelic celebrity or something.

If you know how many casualties you have (how many people you killed with drugs?) - why not share the number? You seem to have a pattern of talking a lot without really saying anything. Sign of the New Age guru I guess.... BTW - I sit with an Ayahuasquero who has been pouring for others 46 years without one single casualty, so I would say you are wrong about anyone serving medicines automatically having casualties. Casualties are very rare in Peru - rare enough that every single one makes headlines.

Not sure why you think using an endangered plant (peyote) is the best form of healing when there are tons of other sources that arent endangered either.... (San Pedro for example which is much more sustainable but still similar) There is also more to shamanism then just eating psychedelics - in fact, many shamans do not use plants at all. You seem to be interested in the "my plant is better then your plant" discussion, but in my experience all the plants are fantastic.

Of course I would never want to waste my time emulating or channeling you any way - not sure where you got that crazy idea.

I still think anyone wanting to improve a system of healing will do best by first learning that system and then improving on what is already there.... Neglecting thousands of years of experience and tradition doesnt give you a head start, and unless you really understand the system as it was you cant really know how to improve it. I know many modern day healers in all different cultures - but the ones I know getting the best results learned what they could from others and then took that further adding their own new perspectives and technologies to that.

Can you imagine someone improving the western medical paradigm without first learning at least some western medicine? Seems unlikely....

But you must be busy saving lives.... I know if you are anywhere near as successful with your clients as shamans I have met then you must have many referrals. Even if you dont seek patients, if you are a successful healer then word will spread and they will seek you. That is why people with no internet access get booked year around in South America - people who see benefits tell others about it. It is very hard to be a successful healer and not be well known for it.

Truth is - none of us could be here without the sacrifices of the past, and we all owe something to the future. We are just visitors here and we can learn the most by starting with what those before us learned. I think anyone who has been graced with the slightest bit of wisdom or insight would have deep respect for the past even if they also respect and honor the present and future.

I see a lot of New Age wannabe shamans out there.... Seen a lot of real shamans too. There is a huge difference in the quality of their work from what I have seen though. Night and day different. But then I see groups like Takiwasi blending old and new together.... That is what I would like to support personally. I see people learning from their elders and then adapting that to their homes or to their communities - and I think that is a great idea. But I also see some people who just take a ton of drugs and play shaman - years later they are still in the same place taking lots of drugs and playing with themselves.... Nothing is wrong with that of course - but I think it is important to realize the difference between playing and working.

thanx guys.

not much time to comment today.
got supplies and battery packs for my new solar/ battery powered systems.

may the sun shine on all shamans and power them up,
but, this shamanette, has grow power in the shade ,or dark ,or in emergency.

^ in the new age, the modern shaman can do that!

expect moar in the new age.

and, travsha, lophs arent endangered when im in the room...........
blame the other shaman for that one.
of course i dont cure cancer,
im too busy saving endangered cactus thru better teks and technology.

i renounced eating wild ones almost 30 yrs ago.
and eating wild ones is one of my biggest complaints.
we dont have to anymore.
annie stands for terraforming , and not mere harvesting.

^ my time shall pass,
but future shaman and shamanettes will feast from my teks
and maybe someday, they will take lophs to space , in hydro gels and under LED.

save and compare is my motto on biodiversity.
im grow sustainable, and very soon ,..........solar.

future shaman, reach for the stars, power up,
and, when the first human eats a loph on mars,
one shamanette, will be there in spirit.

I can't help but point out the irony in putting all sorts of fancy panels and batteries and inverters and controllers and lighting systems in the way of the sunlight = plant growth equation.

Yes, yes I know the reasoning and advantages: batteries store energy, drug wars force us indoors, so on and so forth. Just couldn't help but giggle to myself about how complex we like to make simple things sometimes.

That is great if you like growing plants.

Of course that is a bit different then being a shaman....

Growers and shamans both can benefit best when they respect each others professions. Obviously growing doesnt make you an expert on shamanism and vice versa. I was confused because early in the thread you stated that you were better at healing then shamans are, but now it seems as if you are claiming you dont help people with healing work, so maybe you changed your claim?

Still curious how many casualties/deaths you participated in though - you made it sound like a lot to keep track of.

exponential growth rates..........
so far it appears to be unrivaled to scale.

to the new age shamanette,
mobile hyper loph farms ,
are as simple as water , cups , ferts, pereskiopsis twigs and solar panels.
if it appears complex, ask your shaman how its done.
or better yet, study grow arts and technology , and show your shaman how its done.

the choice is?
pick lots, and then when extinct start working on aya plants?
unacceptable IMO.

best shaman teach/ provide more without limits.

I'm still low-tech as we have endless Sun these days and I'm constantly yelling at my cactus to slow the heck down!
Thankfully, there are now five feet less of them in preparation for the SHE.





Dude, stop fixating on the negative. Sheesh.

of course we grow natural sun ones, the windows are full of them.
we also generate lots thru lab teks.

thats the annie difference,
we do both.
no limits..........thats the point.

I think there's great potential in some of the newer LED tech. Problem is, (as you know) you need the whole setup and not just a good light source. For me that will come later in life when I can dedicate the time and resources to such a task. For now, the uncontrolled sun is working well.

Awesome to see people pushing the envelope (whatever you want to call them).


Are we done with this topic now? It's Page 9.

No one ever said when something is extinct start working with other plants - that is just your random idea. I personally dont rate any plant medicines as better then any others, and I also think that anyone deciding to work with plant medicines should do so sustainable (it is actually very easy t be sustainable - plant more then you consume).

But I did think the thread was about shamanism.... Maybe botany and horticulture deserves its own thread? There is a lot to discuss on traditional vs modern grow techs just as there is a lot to discuss about traditional and modern shamanism....

Why be on the defensive over such a heavily subjective issue?

One could conclude the Andes are full of traditional cocaine addicts...and they may be right..another could conclude that the Andes are full of traditional coca shamans and diviners, and they may also be right.

So which part of that accusation is truth?..

This thread is full of accusations. Which part of that is truth?

Many south american peoples are by western medical standards, cocaine and nicotine addicts. They are physically dependent on cocaine and nicotine and would likely show signs of withdrawl upon cessation of that habit. Many of these same people will also disagree and tell you they are just feeding the spirits..are they? How the hell would I know?...Do I believe that they are not also cocaine addicts just in a culture which chooses to define such behavior in a manner which is very alien to us? No. I think they are addicted to cocaine from coca chewing and simply have woven that experience into they're lives, perhaps in a more beneficial way that we have.

In some ways, I do see shamanism as just as act a person puts on. Look at the internet...it's full of threads like this that are perfect examples of that.

Id rather eat acid with Alan Watts than drink Ayahausca with a a jungle dude.

Why is eating LSD and snorting a tiny bump of cocaine necessarily less sacred or healing or shamanic than drinking a crude cactus extract and chewing a bunch of coca?

It's an attachment to a worldview.

Well Jamie, the difference (i suppose), is that these people were chewing coca leaves (which give a mild experience) way before Cocaine was first extracted. I would say that they are accustomed to chewing coca leaf because it is a tradition and sacred experience to them. It aleviates hunger, and allows for long durations of hard work. We drink coffee, they chew coca leaves. They use the leaf in a positive manner to improve their lives and society, and also for spiritual purposes. The same cannot be said for cocaine extract which (due to it's rapid onset of action), often leads to problems to the individual and society, etc.

Tobacco was/is used by Curandero's and also Tobacqueros, but they at least probably would have had a far greater understanding of this plant than foreigners smoking it in crappy varieties, mixed up with chemicals, 1000's of miles away from source using it simply to 'fit in', because tv adverts told them it was 'cool to smoke'...Who knows??



If a substance is used with good intention like the above example appears to be, then it can also be sacred. However i do think that working with raw plants in natural forms has many advantages over extracts (that are often sold from others of dubious nature and purity), and that alone should be of concern to someone wanting a sacred experience.


LOL, this goes without saying, i've always thought of you as being more of a philosopher type than a 'shamanic type' Jamie, in the nicest possible way.

Coke dealers are some of the most rephrehensible and dangerous people I've ever met in my entire life. Don't even try to tell me you know the one legit coke dealer. The shit comes from cartels and they straight up murder people to get the drug to you. Next time you do a little bump think of that.

Do you have any idea how much coca leaf is used to make a gram? Coca leaf is far less addictive then you give it credit for.

I have never heard of someone having withdrawals from coca - have you?

Coca is also one of the most nutritious plants in the world and has essential nutrients that would be lacking in the Andean diet without it (calcium for example is highly lacking in the Andean diet unless they eat coca).

What is the difference between coca and cocaine? Really? What two outcomes do these things lead to? How to cocaine users act and how do coca eaters act? What effects does each have on the body? Cocaine destroys your body and often turns people into liars who take advantage of others to get a fix... But coca brings nutrition and encourages hard work and community.

The outcomes are completely different, so obviously the there is more to it then you are pretending.

I would say there is something that makes it easy to say what is more or less healing - the outcome.

If i was to differentiate between the two in a spiritual context i would say that taking coca leaves would be comparable to drinking holy wine from a sacred and humble cup, whereas using cocaine as a sacrament would be like drinking baby's blood from a heathen chalice.

To me..

corresponds absolutely with my feeling, what says nothing more than that.

No hurry to find truth, we either win or(/and) lose together. Full power, full love, now, exceeding MY own expecations in every moment.

I am conscious about the animal, I respect the animal, I love the animal, I kill the animal.






All the best, tseuq

"I have never heard of someone having withdrawals from coca - have you?"

Yup.