Opium do you have fumaric acid? You could try using warm FASW to wash/redissolve at least part of that precipitated goo, and then using sodium carb to precip it again (like in BLAB water freebase crystalization). But wash your precipitates now with plain water (or dilute sodium carb solution) a couple of times before doing the FASW thing, to remove sodium carb excess if there is any, otherwise the sodium carb excess might be too much and immediately neutralize the FASW and not dissolve the dmt/convert it to salt.

Thanks for the tests, dont throw anything away and keep us informed!

Thanks for all the tests Opiyum! The reason the Na2CO3 precipitated out is because solubility of a compound is affected by temperature (hot water will "hold" more salt than cold water). With semi-soluble compounds like Na2CO3, this can be rather dramatic.

I'm not sure exactly what that brown sludge is. Carbonate shouldn't react with acids period, and the sodium ion wouldn't make any insoluble salts with the natural acids (tannic, oxalic, etc.). It may be DMT... I suppose the only way to know is to try and clean it as much as possible and "burn" a little bit to see what sort of odor it gives off. If it smells like indole (old-people breath, new-shoe smell, cheap cologne, floral, etc), it's probably DMT.

And I'm glad to hear you got the lye solution going! Yeah, it seems like the pH needs to be pretty high. You'll see crystals forming in a few days

-- Wanderer

I do have fumaric acid so I may try that out.

I was able to separate some of the brown gunk and I tried to vaporize it but it wouldn't. Used a torch and it just didn't do anything. At first I thought this brown/black stuff was just mimosa contamination that got through regardless of very thorough filtering. Now I think it's all just sodium carbonate crystals that has varying degrees of the mimosa tea soaked into it.

I might try this again but I think someone more experienced than me should probably run some tests with Na2CO3. Wanderer are you planning on doing a sodium carbonate batch?

Also I had one idea and I'm curious where if at all the flaw is in this thinking... If you could get DMT to precipitate along with the Na2CO3 as the temperature decreased, couldn't you then slowly increase the temperature until the Na2CO3 dissolves again leaving behind the water insoluble DMT that could be captured in a filter?

Opiyum -- I personally don't plan to use Sodium Carbonate again; I don't believe the pH is sufficiently high enough to break the tryptamine alkaloids from their respective acid ions (tannic, oxalic, phenolic, etc). That brown sludge might just be carbonate which encapsulated the colored-solution within pockets of its crystalline structure (hence the non-combustability). I personally feel lye is fine to use, and I've had great success with it. It might be less-safe to use than dehydrated baking soda, but it is just as natural (if not more-so). And if one can't practice the precaution necessary to handle lye safely, I'm not sure the use of potent psychedelics is advocated either. Additionally, lye can be made anywhere in the world using incredibly simple processes (this is how most Yopo is made, I believe), whereas making or extracting Na2CO3 requires either specific mineral deposits or industrial chemical processes.

Nothing against Na2CO3, I just prefer lye over it. Indeed, heating the solution should increase the solubility of Na2CO3, which may very well liberate the DMT (I've read anecdotal reports that it does). Keeping the solution heated while filtering it might allow one to separate the DMT from solution, but I'm not sure how crystallization could be achieved.

---

Attached is a photo of the 100g lye-batch. One can clearly see crystallization occurring. The entire yellowish, opaque layer is liquid DMT. A pretty good yield is expected from this.

-- Wanderer

"Attached is a picture of the spice extracted from about 30-40 grams of MHRB on the first boil"

30-40g bark..not DMT

You should calculate how much percent the extract makes up of the total weight of the MHRB that was used to extract it from.
The average DMT content of any given amount MHRB can be expected to range from 0,5% to 1,5% of it's weight. It's DMT content is said to be rather consistent and usually doesn't deviate much from about 1% of it's weight.

I guess you'd have to perform a simple STB extraction(with Lye, Water and Diethyl Ether) on some of the same Batch of MHRB. If you have enough MHRB for that.
You should use the same amount of MHRB in the STB Tek as you used in your Water & Lye Tek.
Weigh the number of grams of the extract from the STB Tek and Calculate the Percentage that this weight makes up of the MHRB from which it was extracted.
Do exactly the same for your Water & Lye Tek.

Then you can compair the percentages and see if your Tek is equally efficient as the conventional STB Mimosa extraction Teks.
Then off course you should test the Potency of both the extract from the Water/Lye Tek and the extract from the STB Tek.
You could then determine if the extract from your Tek is less, equally or more potent than the extract from the STB Tek.

Well I have to wait for crystallization to finalize before I weight everything, but I will weigh it. Another option is to use an NP solvent to attempt to extract any remaining DMT from the lye-water batch. If more comes out, then we know it doesn't get everything.

-- Wanderer

OK so this thread was started on the 12 Feb today is the 20 Feb. I have yet to see any definative results posted.

Wanderer you got my hopes up. Whats going on here? I really want to see this thing work.I am seeing mixed results with no final yeilds. I'm not understanding why.

I have some supplies. Stay tuned. Tomorrow I will begin a new thread documenting this tek in detail begin to end. I would like to lay this to rest in my mind.

Does it work? I'm not talking about what looks like some crystals forming on the surface of some mimosa tea. Does this tek work? does it result in an clean dry usable end product.

I'm not saying I can do it any better. What I am saying is that this tek needs to be started and finished as the instructions outline.

or is that possible?

Am I missing something here? Does this tek just take a long time to complete and I am being impatient asking for results?

How long does crystallization take to finalize? Is that the unknown part of this tek?

Respectfully

IH

Na2CO3 crystals coated in a thin layer of DMT + sodium tannates? Or, more likely, sodium bicarbonate crystals so coated. The CO2 formed when the Na2CO3 reacts with DMT tannate has to go somewhere. It reacts with the nearby Na2CO3:

Na2CO3+CO2+H2O -> 2NaHCO3

NaHCO3 has a much lower solubility in water than Na2CO3 does. Try boiling your sludge with a little water, it will cause the NaHCO3 - if that's what it is - to break down into Na2CO3 and increase its solubility. You might then be able to skim off DMT.

What this actually suggests is, in order to make a Na2CO3 water tek work, the tea should be boiled again after the addition of the Na2CO3, thus driving off the excess CO2 and pushing the equilibrium in favour of freebase formation. It's probably worth using a lid to minimise loss of alkaloid.

So...it's been 2.5 weeks, what were your results?

Well it's odd that no one else is posting definitive results. I wonder why? Here are mine. Maybe I did it wrong, but my quick appraisal is that this tek gives the very purest, clearest DMT crystals I've ever seen, yet the yield leaves much to be desired when the volumes are scaled up from the little ones others were talking about, and it is extremely difficult to collect all of the crystals.

I used 1kg of bark (yes, i know, that's a lot). I boiled it and filtered many times. Amazing how many times gunk starts forming. Anyway as per the tek I decided not to reduce too much as I wanted it to be very liquid. With the 2 gallons of liquid, I basified til it got dark as the tek said to do, using 100g lye (adding more lye did not change the color anymore). Left it in basement for 3 days. Came down and saw that no crystals formed. Decided to throw in a bunch more lye, probably way too much (altogether I used ~500g of lye). By the time I had swirled only 100g of those 500g into the liquid it was at ph 13+, and I saw the crystals forming all over the place! In a minute the entire thing was full of these crystals. I caught a few of them in a coffee filter and after washing, they were so incredibly clear, I knew I had never seen DMT this pure before. Not white, but clear. The only problem remaining was how to really harvest the crystals. The only thing I could think of was to pass the entire 2 gallons through a cotton filter. Unfortunately, though it seems crystals could not get through the filter (they were not found in the liquid coming out the other side), the filter at the end had definitely less than 2g of crystals, probably much less, as most of that 2g seemed to be bark or something. I ended up having to soak that stuff in acetone as the only way I could think of to get the spice out of it. The acetone is still drying (I didn't put it in the dehydrator, thought it would dry by itself but I was wrong I guess). But it can't possibly have much more than a 1g of spice in it.

I am now in the process of reducing all of the liquid with no crystals in it. I am going to get it down to a gunky consistency and then do acetone soaks til i get all the spice out. I'm thinking theoretically this tek should have worked perfectly. I don't understand where all the spice went, but I imagine that for some reason it is still in this liquid, as it could not have simply disappeared into thin air. I'll report final yields hopefully within a week.

This tek seems too inefficient and reckless to work...

Hi moyshekapoyre. I am surprised you attempted a tek like this, which hasn't been fully tried and tested, with a kilo of bark! I suggest you keep your mimosa soup and try pulling with naphtha to try get the rest of the DMT out. I am guessing there is a lot of goodies still left. I suggest next time only using 100-200 grams of bark on a tek like this, saving the rest of your bark for a tek like morsofold's or noman's tek.

I still applaud you for testing it out anyways, as it is a interesting procedure. Let us know the size of your yield when finished. Thanks!

DK

Did you forget to post your results and final weight wanderer or are you still off in hyperspace?

I would love to know what the material is or was in the picture wanderer posted at the beginning of this thread. IMO it was not DMT, but something else that precipitated out.

I have worked and re worked this tek and am now officially done with it. IMO its a complete waste of bark.

My advice to anyone thinking of attempting this tek?

DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS TEK!

My first thought in seeing this thread was Dang, someone beat me to it! Now after reading it it sounds like the title should have been "*Water Only* Tek -- HIGHLY EXPERIMENTAL! And Really a Lot of Work No Acids or Solvents (is the goal) w/ Pic".
I think it's a really cool idea and I'm so happy to see that people have been working on this type of technique but as far as I've read there hasn't been a single verifiable bio assay or other confirmation of results.

To wanderer, it's great that you're trying different things but please in the future, confirm your results before you call something 'Successful!'.

Well, this is an old thread and I suppose people have completely given up on this idea, understandably...

I've also read a number of similar/related threads (water teks) and I can see why this concept has been buried...

That being said, I do feel like some things have been overlooked, that mistakes were made but gone unnoticed, that things could have been tried but weren't...

I am going to think about this some more before I start experimenting, but I am reasonably confident that, as long as nothing is discarded during the experiment, whatever yield may be "lost" due to the teks possible inefficiency can be recuperated by doing a "normal" extraction afterwards.

One of the things I'm wondering about, most of the "water teks" are essentlialy STB's without a non polar solvent... It doesn't seem like many A/B's have been tried and this may be of importance as we aren't even sure what the natural salt-form of dmt is (presumably dmt-tannate), so how could we know its solubility in water? It might well stay in the filtered-out organic matter? In this case, the choice of acid could be of importance due to a variety of factors...

When choosing an acid and a base for this concept to work I think it should also be looked into what "by-products" are created, their solubilities at different temperatures and how they affect the density and ionic strength of the solution rather than simply focusing on the freebasing of the dmt molecule?

As always, it is very likely that I am completely missing the point here - my imagination far outweighs my chemistry knowledge

For now, and until my statements are corrected by anyone more experienced/knowledgeable in this subject, the plan of action would be: cold citric acid/water soak, let organics settle, decant liquid, base with NaOH, see what gives, do my usual extraction on the organic material afterwards... Any thoughts or comments?

PLUR

edit - I should have posted this in one of the other related threads that aren't "no acids" - sorry for that

idea #1

could one brew mimosa in vinegar
then after filtering plant matter brew the dmt acetate solution to sludge
then add sodium carbonate to the sludge to make freebase jam
which could result in excellent enhanced leaf

the question is while brewing the dmt acetate solution to sludge , can it tolerate heat like a fasw solution

idea #2

brew mimosa in vinegar
filter plant matter
add excess rock salt to prepitate dmt hcl
convert hcl salt to freebase through sodium carbonate or use hcl in pharma

i am germinating some seeds and won't be extracting until a few years later so anyone who wishes to experiment with these simple methods should do so , especially idea #2 , since using any of this ideas can result in a dmt jam enhanced leaf ,

also both these ideas use no nonpolar solvent or lye ,

also there will be no loss of yeild considering we are using acetic acid in the first step of both the ideas

people please comment , share , add , experiment ,or just evaluate

edit :

idea #3

brew mimosa in plain water
filter mimosa and brew the dmt water to sludge
add sodium carbonate and enjoy ( if living in a forest add wood ash instead of sodium carbonate )

shuld'nt this result in dmt jam ?

edit again :

in ideas #1 & #2 , one could use vegetable oil to defat during the acidic stage of the brew to remove any plant oils

these methods can make extracting dmt relatively safe and easy using water,vinegar,sodium carbonate(which can be made by heating sodium bi-carbonate)

one might not need any protective gear or any dangerous chem or solvent

How does this work/what would the equation be?

I was trying to check if adding NaCl to a solution of dmt-citrate, NaOH and water would form any dmt-hydrochloride and I was told it wouldn't...

Now I'm confused, please help?

Has been tried and does not work. This idea is inspired by manske precipitation of harmalas I presume and is based on the fact that hydrochloride salts of harmalas are fairly insoluble in cold aqueous solutions, which does not appear to be the case for dmt hydrochloride.