Annie

There is shit-and-quackery ad infinitum wherever looked at, and I support fully in pointing it out, but why considering generalizing?

MRI's and stuff score a billions better than rattles for diagnosing, fact. So? Suppose all you have is a hut, mud and a rattle and no MRI. Wouldn't you start shaking it? Why laugh at one who tries nonetheless? What if someones patient-psyche does react to it and there start a cascade of effects? Chances are very low, yes, but impossible? Is the connection psyche-body all bullshit?

I don't understand how it's so easy for some to deny spirituality.

Spirituality simply means non-physical states of conscious existance.

To think that a physical body is a prerequisite for conscious-being seems a bit naive to me, as does the notion that your present incarnation in your present physical body is the only consciousness you will ever experiance, or that anybody will ever experiance, to think that conscious-being only fits into this very narrow, limited, and localized, mode of the physical body seems absurd to me.

When your physical body dies, your conscious-being continues on.

That's all spirituality is

In fact that's all religion is, only religion has been contaminated with texts, exegesis, hierarchical power structures, money, dogma, politics, and so on...

I've always struggled with the notion that so many people are unable to accept this.

This is also the one aspect modern psychotherapy and medicine refuse to acknowledge, and is an area where shamanism* has the clear advantage

(Despite the previous discussion, I find the term "shamanism" is easier to use in this situation. You are all aware that it is an umbrella term, it covers spiritual and medical practice ranging from Siberia, Asia, India, Africa, Europe, Australia, Pacific islands, north, south, and central America, and so on, that it covers a range of traditions and techniques, ranging from Entheogenic and medical plants, to song, drum, fasting, ordeal, dance, ritual, and so on...these practices and traditions are as diverse as the cultures from which they are derived, and encompass a wide range of standards and philosophies. )

Younger individuals seem so hung up on the obvious hypocrisies and flaws involved with organized religion that it makes them unable to accept spirituality in any form...

I guess they believe that consciousness is part of the physical body, that consciousness is limited to the physical body, and that when the physical body dies your consciousness simply disappears into nothing, they feel there's nothing deeper to the situation than that, and they feel very certain that they are right.

Science is a tool for describing, manipulating and understanding the physical world. It's based on making observations and performing tests to define the limits and parameters of every aspect of the world and universe around us. Science is great, it's an amazing tool, but as for how it can assure these people so completely that consciousness outside of a living physical body is impossible, I can't say...it's seems arrogant, no?

I am a scientific person, I am a rational person, I am a skeptical person, and I would like to think I'm a fairly intelligent person, and I didn't form these views without vigorous contemplation and deep thought. it's through experiance, exploring, experimenting, inquiry, and research that I came to my conclusions.

-eg

There's a good deal of sneaky malicious practices, unleashing spirits on your enemies, back-biting, curses/hexes and so on that goes on in shamanism...

You will even hear stories where the villagers feel a shaman has cursed them, or has turned into an animal and attacked members of their tribe, and so on, so they will ask their shaman to combat this negative magic...

The shaman I work with is grumpy and reclusive, he is not overtly fond of people, specially "white" people, it took a long friendship and a good deal of trust before he would open up to me...he is a very compassionate healer, but there's a lot more to his practice than love and healing...

Though this is just my personal experiance, and I'm not speaking for all shamans.

-eg

i never deny spirituality.
i just insist on fusing mine with tangible reality.
and reaping tangible rewards for it.

at no point have i said, that theres no spirituality in all this.
my objection is to the medical claims.
( and the cult like worship of aborigines / noble savages)

^ im half indian with double lophs, and surprise, and i dont even play that card!

Tangible results?

My friend no longer has HIV after one month with an Ayahuasca shaman. He had HIV for years before and doctors are baffled.

My other friend no longer has prostate cancer after 3 weeks with a shaman. Before he went to Peru doctors told him his cancer was too advanced and was terminal. That was 3 years ago.

I know 2 people who no longer have epilepsy after ceremony (one only needed a single ceremony and the other needed a few weeks). Both of them have been symptom free for years now.

I guess the reason you have an issue with medical claims is because they prove you wrong? Too difficult for you to change your world view or open your mind?

BTW - no one ever said anything about shamans needing to be indigenous besides you Anne. Best shamans I ever met is a little old white lady from South Africa who they call "La Gringa" in Peru. She is one of my best friends and my biggest inspirations, and there is nothing indigenous about her.

"prove" the key word.
havent seen proof of anything but the ability to make undocumented med claims.
that one has been proved.

moms a doctor.
we werent allowed to make miracle medical claims growing up.

But I guess you can know everything about it without even experiencing it - because you know it all already?

It cant be true because you decided it cant.

I wouldnt believe anything either until I could see it and touch it.... I am just lucky enough to have seen a lot of miracles.

If you are ever brave enough to sit in real ceremony, maybe you will have the chance to see one too!

Okay...

I've been watching this thread for the past week and wondering when someone would beat me to the punch and shut it down. It's pretty cringe inducing (on both sides of the debate), but I've got to draw a line in the sand here unless Traveler sees things differently:

Travsha - You need to cease and desist with the unsubstantiated medical claims. I'm sorry - they either stop completely or the thread goes away.

You are entitled to whatever beliefs you want, but your medical claims and the way you present them have no place here - so, please take this is as fair warning.

LOL!!! Sounds just like me!!!

MUFASA!!

I wouldn't dare call myself a Shaman but I would call myself a fellow traveler travsha . I think you should be more aware of individual's perceptions that are without the benefit of mind blowing experiences that significantly shift one's perceptions (for better or for worse) of reality. Becoming aware of this allows us to change the direction we take in communicating with people around us. You may not be able to convince the people of dmt nexus that a Shaman can heal cancer but exploring the various mechanisms of how our physical health is intimately tied to our emotional health would probably be a better place to start.

ps
Anne has got a pair of balls on her, really big balls (for better or for worse lol) I highly doubt its fear that's stopping her from experiencing a ceremony.

who says ive never done ceremonies.


if your defining it all by wether we patronize your favorite indian,
probably not.

i ate lophs all thru the late 70s with indians .
i just dont tout that stuff.

i was a girl scout also.
dont tout that either.


for at least 20+ yrs , ive measured it all by grow power.
call me biased, but i judge a teacher by the grow.
i assume those who can conjure unlimited supply, have most experience.

^ therefore, to me a shaman thats not a master grower, is essentially half there.
id still suggest aya is for those who cant get shrooms or cactus .
as im of north american indian heritage,
im gonna run with the psyches north of panama.

im always of the opinion it should be all de centralized, open source , and personalized.

I'm not sure I fully agree with this. I don't think we can fault Travsha for honestly sharing his experiences. Spontaneous remission and the placebo effect are extremely well documented in the medical literature, and all shamanic hoodoo aside, people heal from these kind of extreme conditions under seemingly miraculous circumstances all the time.

I suspect that getting people out of their standard routines, immersing them in nature, changing their diet, feeding them copious amounts of plant medicine, and truly believing the treatment works, all of which are supported by evidence, probably play a role as much as any old indian shaking a shakapa and blowing mapacho over the patient, but hell if praying to white jesus or swallowing a sugar pill can heal a terminal illness, why can't some icaros? As long as no one is dispensing medical advice or discouraging anyone from doing their own research and making their own choices about their health, I don't really see any harm.

Perhaps you are the bridge. Perhaps you are exactly the kind of person I am referring to. The modern day shaman so to speak. You have been exposed to these ancient practices. You have also been exposed to much of the world. You have been on a journey and come back to tell the tale. You are clever. You seem to have healed yourself with these plants. I would gather that you have healed many people with your knowledge of the plants you cultivate. Perhaps hosting a gathering or two and guiding the experiences of your guests. In many ways you are the modern shaman. You may not likely identify yourself as a shaman per se, but the practice has some similarities.

I am curious. Do you ever practice any kind of ceremony? Any kind of ritual?

I agree with some of what you have argued in this thread. In some ways I disagree. Either way, from what I have read from you and what little I know about you, I would say you are the modern day shaman. Perhaps the grumpy reclusive kind the doesn't really like people. lol

You all have some brilliant minds. I am always impressed at the passion and intelligence that the nexus brings to the table.

Wow. this is a funny thread.

I suppose if you want to know what Shamanism is all about you'd better study it. Wikipedia give a basic introduction that is quite good, and there are many practices about.

I think most people here would tend to be talking about Amazonian Curandismo, since this relates to most of what this forum is somehow linked to, well plantwise anyhows.

The best way to understand what it's about is to read good books about it, and partake in traditional ceremonies.

It seems obvious to me that certain posters have strong opinions about this, but they also appear to lack knowledge on the subject, and no real life experience of such ceremonies.

Certainly, eating lots of lophs, or smoking a lot of the other does NOT make you a Shaman, just a philosophical psychonaught. I think it's a great pity that some posters who obviously love their 'lophs', didn't master the skills required to turn this cacti'd trippin' into something more worthwhile to people and society?

Whatever, i have nothing against people enjoying the journeying of these plants, but i do think that they have a lot more to offer, and this is what they learnt in the Amazonian cultures.

Have been thinking that too, same about jamie etc..

Claims float best on proof.
In that Ayurveda link I gave, the "barkman"'s recipes were tested on cancer (IIRC) cultures and indicated success. If that was no misleading or manipulation, it's proof of old school shaman like cancer beating.

Then claims of the opposite, that it cannot, need as much as proof to stand proud ground, this is often overlooked.

Statistics are partly proof, it says something with a grain of salt.

In which way? Care to explain?

I would love to be healed by them.....



That's fair comment, Art, but i wouldn't be so hard on Travsha. I myself have been a skeptik, but based upon what i experienced in Ceremony in Peru, and what i read and spoke to others about, i wouldn't be too fast to judge the ability of a good Curandero.

Simply put, they use the Aya to diagnose illness, and icaros and mapaccho to heal it, as well as other stuff like sucking it out, and prescribing specific medicinal plants. I recently watched an interesting documentary (link...will search it out), and it appeared that some people were cured of chronic illness, and that was medically proven by test results!, however one American died, but his illness was too far gone anyhow, (but he did seem to be happy and at peace, in the video.)

Plus, we must realise that these medicine men are the guardians of the Amazonian medicine plants they've been using for aeons, that the West is now discovering and using to treat illness albeit in their usual pharma trademarked manner.

By that logic, CEO's of pharmaceutical giants are the great teachers of western society. And bankers too, if you are willing to entertain the thought of fiat money as a drug of sorts.


Indigenous medicine men collect the medicine from their local ecosystem.

Growing implies an agro-industrial approach. It seems that many western adherents of traditional shamanism value especially its pre-technological worldview. Growing would turn the pre-technological shaman into an industrialized medical doctor, losing his special appeal and, if you believe in that, his contact with the spirit world - incompatible with modern western industrialized culture.


Come on, anybody can order a grow kit from the internet. Mushrooms from a kit are even easier than brewing your own ayahuasca from online supplies. A kit almost always produces at least some mushrooms and these are certain to produce an effect.

The effects from harmalas in ayahuasca makes it clearly stand out from tryptamines alone. Perhaps by "aya" you mean a session guided by a person to whom authority for the experience can be assigned? Someone with feathers and perhaps snakes? IMHO that says little about the substance used, you can get a "shaman" to feed you mushrooms or cactus all the same.

Your comment on not making medical claims here I fully agree with. Travsha, you are implying that ayahuasceros have cured diseases, without being able to provide a reasonably verifiable argued case of fact. If you keep the beliefs and facts you state separated better, both will come across more credible.

On the other hand we should not forget that if anyone came here claiming that their city doctor has cured some disease, it is very likely that nobody would frown at the lack of verifiable substance in such an anecdote.

Conventional western medical science should not be above reproach either. Many people turn to alternative practices because they feel that the modern medical complex has failed them. Making arguments based on authority against "heretical" approaches, while disregarding real shortcomings in the orthodoxy, will only drive these people harder towards alternative practices, some of which are fraudulent schemes, nobody will deny that.

BTW, you don't have to subscribe to the "naturalnews.com" viewpoint to see structural failures in modern medicine too. Why is one "quackery" and the other only "fraud"?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/eri...harma-addicted-to-fraud/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24088151
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3702092/
http://fampra.oxfordjournals.org/content/20/2/225.full

"These medicine men" are not some god-ordained guardians, nor do "these medicine men" hold exclusive rights to or authority over these plants. On what would anyone base such claims?

Besides, are you aware that "These medicine men" is a highly unspecific term? Who is in the group and who is out? I bet "these medicine men" as you see it would not even agree on it themselves.

BTW, many of the medicinal qualities of banisteriopsis caapi are shared with peganum harmala, a common folk medicine in the areas where it grows natively.