MMM... Free will is chosen by those who choose it

Do what you want, but blame yourself for where you end up from the choices you made...

Whoa. I like it.
I'm trying to imagine whether or not material and idealistic universes can exist in parallel. I guess I always imagined a multi-verse as consisting of many universes where the only differences are the initial conditions and physical constants. I'd never considered that they might have metaphysical differences.

Here is an interesting thread on a Buddhist website that has a lot of insight into this problem. It also has a 1:25 minute video of Sam Harris declaring there is no freewill..

Anyway I agree very much with some of the comments in the forum below the video.

http://newbuddhist.com/d...in-with-the-law-of-kamma

[quote=joedirt]Here is an interesting thread on a Buddhist website that has a lot of insight into this problem. It also has a 1:25 minuted video of Sam Harris declaring there is no freewill..

Anyway I agree very much with some of the comments in the forum below the video.

http://newbuddhist.com/d...n-with-the-law-of-kamma[/quote]


Wow, what a great talk that was! Thanks joe!

I absolutely love Sam's emphasis on the role of luck.

2 other videos worth watching.

The Libet Experiment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQ4nwTTmcgs

Worth noting that Libet actually shared a view very similar to mine. That is that there is a partial freewill..that is a will that can be used to overcome an urge.. Basically you can choose to act or not, but you can't really choose what to act on. This is some truly fascinating stuff.

This next video is actually really because it addresses moral and ethics with regards to freewill.

Also worthy of viewing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCM5BFU01YU

Peace

I am glad that you are still in the thread Joe and i particularly liked the Sam Harris video. I have never heard of him before and when i first read the name i thought that he was the guy who wrote Fatherland. The real author was Robert Harris, who i thought originally wrote Jurrassic Park (but Michael Crichton did).




I can understand why the idea of having freewill can affect a moral outcome but don"t those tests actually imply that we do not have freewill, as the subjects in the tests were determinalistically affected by the passages that they had to read. Also does it not underline the idea that morality is just as dependant on a particular persons history and how they have been conditioned and perhaps just as illusory as freewill?
If you can cheat and win money, you are more likely to because you have been told that it is not your fault. This is an exterior influence affecting "freewill". It also tells me that we are robots that are hardwired to do the thing that is most beneficial to us, very much like a sunflower following the sun.

Maybe morality has developed as a comrade for the illusion of freewill. We will always do the selfish self beneficial thing for ourselves even when we think we are doing the opposite. When we do something that is very self sacrificing, maybe for another person, it makes us feel good. It is a selfish action dedicated to self preservation. You feel good about helping someone, you are happier and stand a better chance at flourishing. Depressed people are far less likely to get a mate, procreate and carry on the species.

I believe that everything we do is completely determined by cause and effect. This includes every action, every thought, every emotion, and every choice.

We are robots who think they have free will.

Interestingly, the Buddha taught that it is our desires and attachments that bind us to this chain of cause and effect. He also taught that the path to freedom is found by overcoming our desires and dropping out attachments.

Again I think he devil is in the details. Sam seems to believe the data is in and the debate is done. I don't agree with him at all on this. I think, like LIbby, that we still have a sort of override or veto power. I also don't think we have enough understanding to fully design a conclusive experiment. BTW if you recall, I, like Libby, am only arguing for an extremely limited amount of choice. Some people would call that free will but I do not. I don't really believe we have free will at all, but I do believe we can make choices in a very VERY limited capacity. Like Veto power. The urge arises to push the button, but we don't.



And yet many of us do the thing that benefits others the most and this alone is what leads me to believe that it almost consciousness isn't equivalent to a deterministic state machine. Pretty much every day on my way to work I give a dollar or an apple to the homeless people. No benefit to me. Sure I get a little warm glow inside when I see them smile, but the apple would have given me sustenance and helped sustain my life...and I like apples and would also get a slight warm glow from biting into it. There is not net benefit to our species by sharing the apple.. there are in fact 7 billion of us. Honestly our species would benefit more if about half of them died off...

Also Sam harris clearly doesn't believe in free will and he is actually a pretty standup person that still argues for morality. BTW I like Sam Harris, but I just don't share is take on this.




I can see this argument, but it doesn't make sense to me. I know plenty of people that don't help strangers and are perfectly fine mentally. Then I know people like myself that take almost every opportunity to talk with and help homeless people. My depression and survival advantage is the same either way. I do it out of genuine empathy and compassion.

I guess for me free will is an ideal, the same way I am vegetarian because it is an ideal I hold.

If I don't have free will, it just furthers my own gnostic leanings that there is something here to escape..to transcend. In many ways there is a nostalgic longing I feel for some other more true state of being...perhaps we are slaves within a fallen system, or not.

If we don't have free will, than free will will still remain an ideal I will strive towards...just as I will strive towards contributing to less death and suffering in my life even though ending all suffering and death is unrealistic. I guess that makes me not a realist? I understand that I am an idealist and I am okay with that label for now.

It is the striving towards something that might not even exist within this existence that I am referring to..not what is concrete here and now.

Who are you really?

Jamie are you back to being a vegetarian? I've really kinda become a flexitarian, but I adhere to a plant based diet. But the occasional piece of fish or chicken isn't something I shun, but I certainly feel better if I eat less meat.


I'm curious what you mean here? It would seem no free will or choice...aka we are equivalent to robots...would almost imply there isn't anything greater to escape to wouldn't it? Or am I just misunderstanding what you are saying?


I certainly am on board with us, humanity in general, having a nostalgic longing towards something greater. A transcended state of being if you will. This longing is the origin of religion and quite honestly the origin of science as well IMHO.


Who or what we are is the single greatest question a person can ask IMHO. I'd say once a person starts seeking an answer to this question is the moment they step onto a sincere path of awakening. And this path can be as multi faceted as there are beings. You currently find a wealth of insight in the gnostic traditions. nen, Rising Spirit and others find it Advaita Vedanta, I'm finding it in Buddhism. What all these paths seem to have in common is push towards seeing past the small separate identity towards a larger unifying whole. I guess I don't really care what framework a person uses so long as it leads towards seeing the interconnectedness of everything. The rest is largely belief and cosmology. What works for one may not work for another, but realizing that we are all part of parcel of larger whole means that things like kindness, empathy, compassion, and tolerance for others will naturally arise. Conversely religions based around chosen groups of people by and large don't lead people towards tolerance for people that are different than their core group.

Now how does that all fit into free will or choice? Well I think that concepts like not having freewill and thus no responsibility for one's actions are potentially dangerous ideas (to pun the video with Sam Harris) for people that haven't started the process of seeing past the smaller identity. I believe there is a video of Charlie Manson straight up saying, "there is no me".

I have been vegetarian for about 4 months now. I eat the most ethical free range eggs and butter I can find but no meat. It's not a moral thing for me..it's an ideal which is sort of different(IMO). I am def not who I was 18 months ago..I am unsure who that person was tbh...after I was at the lowest point of my life, lost at least 15 , stopped eating and was hardly sleeping and wanted to die, I had a pretty heavy life changing experience with a high dose of DMT where I went through hell and finally arrived at god..the word numinous better represents how I feel about it, but I also don't have issues with saying I found god...then I found the Nag Hammadi and Vedanta...and then started reading the Edda..and then got interested in mystical Islam..and the Cathars..and I understood people like Rumi..like really understood..it has changed my life so much I don't feel like the same person anymore..within weeks of that experience I was working 40-50 hour weeks as a gardener and going to horticulture school at night and riding a glow that never really ended. I would have broke down under those circumstances before..

and then I really changed a lot of things in my life..trecked off to shambhala all alone last summer uncertain about what what I would find and found what has pretty much become my real family in this life..ended up coming back home with solid friends and started going to a lot of raves all through this last winter and fell heavily into the dance culture...was exposed to MDMA which blew my freaking heart wide open and was one of the most profound experiences I have had with drugs and I connected with people in a way that I just don't think I had ever really done before..and recent experiences with 5-MeO-DMT have been very profound as well and important..and all of this brought me right back into the mushrooms, which have been one of my greatest teachers in this life.

I began meditating in woodland swamps, in quaint hidden away patches of beautiful phalaris, listening to frogs sing cosmic lullabies as the great soul of the world rocked the cradle of my life gently back and forth...and became a mystic.

I am rambling but this is how I got here..I don't like suffering..it is not ideal. It served me, but I don't wish to inflict it upon other beings if I can avoid it. Real pain, suffering, heartbreak-these things change a person...you go deep enough, let go and you fall..break every bone at the bottom of that valley..and then you find something. You find you..the you that sits at the core of the all the bullshit, and that you is all that really makes it out of that place..and then you don't want all that crap, the suffering the heartbreak or the pain anymore..and don't wish it upon any beings..because all beings have a piece of that divine light at the core..and in my ideal world, that light would shine of it's own accord. So, I stopped eating meat, again,because I can not longer bring myself to kill a living being when I have an alternative.. I can't stop killing plants etc but if I could, I would. So, this is not a moral issue for me and I do not wish to associate with those who moralize the issue as humans have thrived for a long time due to hunting and eating meat. It is human nature, and that is what I am questioning and I cannot ask another to do the same..this is to me, fundamental to idealism. It's not realism..

I really like the Manichaeans take on this, as many people claim they thought the world and nature etc were evil and that we lived within a prison, but that everything still contained this divine spark..so they would sing to the trees to try to release the light within them and send them back to the divine..

I don't believe that the gnostics or manichaeans really thought nature or the world was evil in the sense that some modern gnostics suppose. I do however resonate with the idea that something IS wrong, and that there is something more..and those of us who feel that nostalgia for something you cant quite put your finger on, but it's like a homesickness-well you understand...perhaps it is just our own fallen aspect of the human mind, the psychotic demi-urge of human self identification that has created this psychological prison construct..

Then again, you have to wonder what kind of god creates things like the inquisition, the holocaust, rape, pedophilia etc? Is it really just all good because some people say it's all one? Or have we been fooled into a lesser construct? Again..who are you really? Never stop asking that question, and never take anothers word for it.


"I'm curious what you mean here? It would seem no free will or choice...aka we are equivalent to robots...would almost imply there isn't anything greater to escape to wouldn't it? Or am I just misunderstanding what you are saying?"

Do androids dream of electric sheep?

Any way you spin it, I will still turn to my own inner nostalgia for something more..something beyond this life..on the other side of death perhaps..perhaps even in death the constuct continues and the yearning for the true home in the clear light of the pleroma will continue. It's not a depression..or a discontent..because I am pretty happy for the time..more than any other time I can remember...but I still hold ideals..ideals beyond the capabilities of material existance..and so even if logic says I am a robot in a world of matter, I would still say "okay, so how do I liberate from that system?". I have passion, and I have imagination...and as I grow that calling only deepens. I think it would be a very gnostic approach to dismiss the idea that free will is not attainable, in the face of that impossibility..becasue gnosis is not about the possible..it's about the impossible.

Without imagination, we are nothing.

"we are gods unwanted children, so be it!"
-Tyler Durden

A God that gives, ONLY to give. A GOd that breathes life into all it's creatures. A God that does not favor one or the other! It loves ALL OF ITSELF equally, without discrimination. A God that has no expectation. That needs nothing. That asks for nothing in return. A God that is Everything and nothing, that never changes. That was never born, and never dies. A god that doesn't even exist .... These are only some of the ''answers'' none are the truth, yet they point toward THE truth

It is only because of our limited view that we don't understand, and are unable to see the cause and effect. It's like looking through a pipe...Can we see the whole ''picture'', or even close? Since reincarnation is not such an easily provable theory...at least not by today's scientific standards, and certainly not without experiential knowledge, it is difficult to be positive.

I know in my life, this life, I have in the past suffered tremendously. I know it was all caused by myself, by my perceptions, my ignorance, my actions. I have seen the causes and effects in this life. I have seen why had I to suffer sooo much, and why I still need to suffer (my suffering now is not even really comparable. I've done so much work on myself, that there appears to be only very subtle personality and character traits that need adjusting..though there are a lot of them...lol)

I have spent years adjusting myself, doing my best to bring my inner and outer self into harmony with all that ever was, is and will be. (This is why I practice Raw veganism as a lifestyle and have been vegan for over 3 years. I am transitioning slowly into eating only nuts and fruits, given freely by the tree's and plants. I am becoming tired of eating things like lettuce, that are only grown for our satisfaction, then killed when ready) I am becoming fatigued by my ''footprint'' left here on this planet.

I have spent many years trying to reconcile how the one true God can allow so much suffering in the world. But as I get a little bit more and more of the picture, it becomes clearer and clearer. We are each responsible for the situations we find ourselves in. We are directly responsible for the lessons we learn. It is our desires that bring us into the light or into the dark. When the soul can see all the causes and effects, it can understand why it is where it is, and WHY it needs to be there. Unfortunately most people are very clueless and are asleep, and don't care if they hurt anyone or anything. Most people support the torture of animals in one form or another...Maybe they don't want to, but because they are weak they are unwilling to change..This lifestyle will only bring more suffering upon themselves. And most people hate to suffer, but even when confronted with the reason why they are suffering, and an alternative to change it, they still choose to suffer (take a look at most cigarrette addicts) btw, I supported the murder and torture of animals(not humans, only the tasty edible ones) for many years, and I was hooked on cigarrettes. I'm not trying to portray myself as a saint, although it is why I aspire to be. I've come from ''hell'', and i'm moving through it as best I can

I still find it very difficult from time to time to accept all the suffering in the world. Reading about children losing their lives, etc. Sometimes I think...." I want to find a better way, a faster, easier way for us to learn our lessons, a smoother way with less suffering''. But often times the counter argument comes.....Life is perfect, as it is. All is in its place. All is in harmony. essentially..''Your desires are noble, but they are based in ignorance'' Because who I am to judge, or to say what is right or wrong?? It could, and I say it is HIGHLY likely to be, that the soul of the poor dog that is abused and beaten it's whole life, was once the soul of a man who beat and abused his children and wife, and now that soul is in a dog, learning it's lesson (hopefully, but maybe not)....This is just a crude POTENTIAL example....But for me, it does coincide with a lot of personal experiences I have had, where I can clearly the mistake I have made (the cause) and how and WHY it leads to the effect. And one can't dispute that in certain aspects of reality like attracts like...take our favorite molecule and how it grows into a crystal...Or how similar people tend to congregate together.

Getting back to the illusion of free will question. If all is one, and I see no other way around it...There is nothing to separate the one but itself...All in one, one in all. We are the one, There is nothing that separates us from the one. We are it. It is us..

@ Jamie...''Who are you?''.....Who am I not? What am I not. I am EVERYTHING............................................................... and NO thing. For me the answers to all the questions is the same, and I agree with Jamie, never take another's word for it It is your answer, and your's alone....but you know my answer now

Jamie, I think I caught the rambling bug from you

We have both free will and no free will. That is the paradox. On one level we are THE WILL, on another level we are the effect of that will. In the midst of THE mystery.... trying to find THE grounding

We're all in this together, we better learn how to get along...lol

I AM

[/quote]

What isn't possible?

"I have spent years adjusting myself, doing my best to bring my inner and outer self into harmony with all that ever was, is and will be. (This is why I practice Raw veganism as a lifestyle and have been vegan for over 3 years. I am transitioning slowly into eating only nuts and fruits, given freely by the tree's and plants. I am becoming tired of eating things like lettuce, that are only grown for our satisfaction, then killed when ready) I am becoming fatigued by my ''footprint'' left here on this planet."


Here is a good example of what I mean when I talk about idealism. To lessen the need to kill other beings to sustain myself to the point where I kill nothing and simply live in the light of compassion and love is something to strive towards in my opinion..and I have lived for an extended period in the past as a raw vegan, and attempted fruitarianism a number of times. It just was not workable for my body. I started falling apart over time..I need to eat some animal products..so I remain vegetarian but not vegan..is that ideal? It is what it is.

You just do what you can, try to be humble and show love and compassion to others.

It's not about BEING ideal for me..it's about that whisper...that sort of calling up of something deep in the core of my being that sings "there is something that remains..."...that nostalgia for home..even if home never existed in the first place..doesn't matter..it calls anyway.

I cant be that ideal. I have a material body that has requirements..and that is beautiful. Life is not wrong...it's that that there is this calling..to be something more.

What is more?

Maybe I cant do it all..

Certainly I cant..

I can, however move a little closer..to the source of that calling.

Even if it never existed anyway.

After this post, I will do my best to stop derailing the thread




Exactly. Just take it slow and gradual. I caused many more problems for myself by trying to rush through things, and I only set myself back...Oh well, live and learn...and LOVE....



I agree. As I am called by it to be something ''more'' than I am now. To REMEMBER who and what I am. Yet, part of me forgot what I was, though I have never stopped being it.

You are that ideal at your core. You are the TRUTH/God/Tao at your core. The undifferentiated unity. Through cause and effect we have acquired clothes (a body), a type of prison. We have acquired emotions, habits, thoughts, desires. The inner light has been masked by all of these, yet for some of us, it does shine through brightly from time to time. When we remove the obstructions, this allows for the truth to shine through. When we have eradicated all falsehood inside us, and have become The truth, the cause, that is when we become free. That is home.

Being a human, especially is this space and time is one of the most sacred, most amazing opportunities available. All is in one, and the one is all. But being a human we can gain access to the realization of the unfathomable truth of that statement. We can learn, and some of us are learning the science behind merging into the undifferentiated mind. And it's not about gaining or adding anything, it's about learning how to remove the obstacles impeding the experience of the undifferentiated unity of God.

There's a reason many ancients said Man was created in God's image.



The creator, The source is beyond existence. Beyond all space and time. It is contained by nothing yet it contains everything. Existence is IT'S creation (we need a head exploding smiley face!)

Hey man, glad to have you back. I remember when you took a sort of radical departure and thought it strange, but alas life is a long strange trip and sometimes the road can be quite winding.


Hey BTW I really like Rumi as well. The mystical traditions in Islam are rather fascinating. I was first turned onto Rumi via Paramahansa Yoganada. Speaking of which have you read much of his work jamie? I suspect you would find it appealing. Speaking of mystical Islam you seen images of the pink mosque? There is no way its not psychedelically inspired.



For more images of the pink mosque see here:




This is it exactly. It's our desires that lead to suffering. It's easy enough to see quite directly when one really opens to it. In Buddhism there is a part of mind that feeds back on itself called Manas. In truth the mind is never really a separate thing made of components, but for the purpose of speaking it's Manas that essentially feeds back onto itself and clings to certain aspects as self. it's the self born desire that is the root of suffering IMHO. And strangely enough it's not that there isn't a you or a me or a jamie. We are all obviously here and real. What we are not is separate from the larger whole. It's only this Manas or ego that keeps this belief alive.

After a high dose of LSD a few years back I remember the next day doing a walking meditation and I noticed that after walking for probably 20 minutes that my mind never once asserted an 'I', 'me', or a 'mine'. It was the first time in my life I had ever experienced an extended period of enlightenment.. and this is what I consider enlightenment to essentially be. I still had thoughts and things were quite natural... but there wasn't a part of me clinging to other parts of me. It's was so natural and perfect...

Of course no chemical induced enlightenment will ever last forever. So back to the meditation mat and back to working through my own self baed delusions... Climbing the mountain one stone at a time.

And perhaps free will is ultimately one of those delusions but as jamie eluded to earlier I think it's a worthy delusion to hold until one is perhaps at the very end of the path...whatever that may actually mean.

Ajahm Brahm has called free will an illusion and Jesus even sort of refers to it when he says, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them."

I guess in the end if one is to completely give up the doer it would almost have to imply no free will, but then what we be the purpose of all the spiritual teachings if there wasn't anything anyone could do?

So yeah I agree there is both free-will and no free-will. I've tried to tease my thoughts about that apart a little more higher up in the thread, but for sure it's all paradoxical..

Ajahn Brahm on free will.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97TOwGN1Yw4

"so broken the hollow shell of a man piercing the veil as the clear light ruptures forth from the vacuous void of nothing, where my tired heart off-beats from the core of my soul. The pieces fall away, and again, what remains is only the gaping mystery, scintillating in the darkness as I fall ever towards, ever away, into the abyss.."

-Wanderer

They call this longing Radha in India. Radha is Krishna's consort. Wherever Radha is, Krishna is not far. The longing for the Beautiful is both an indicator of Presence and a magnetic force the propels towards it. Blessings all around.

Half the population dieing off would not benefit the species. It would only be a temporary solution unless certain lessons were learned after the mass suicide/genocide/plague/starvation. I think that learning to share apples throughout the world would indicate a shift in attitudes that were more beneficial to our longevity.



Don"t get me wrong Joe. I think that morality is a very important atribute and, like Jamie said, i think the ideal of having freewill is good aswell. I like Sam Harris too ,mostly because he agrees with me ( but in a far more intellectual way of wording it).



When i said helping another person, it didn"t necessarily mean a stranger. Most people help one and other out and have different degrees of empathy. Why do you think it is that you have genuine empathy and compassion? I think that i have genuine empathy and compassion (to an extent) and i believe that a large part of the reason is that it makes me feel good about myself and is probably down to how i have been nurtured over the years by various people and experiences.



Does the idea of having something greater to escape to mean that spirituality is a byproduct of suffering? Do people seek transcendence to escape the mundane existence or unhappiness? I have known one or two messed up people become born again christians. I can relate to the idea of escape. I have done it before through drugs.



If they don"t already, they will do in the future.



WTF is a flexitarian????