There is a difference between blind faith and personal experience.

This thread has turned ugly and is going nowhere. If i where still a mod, i would have locked it right now, since no-one here is gonna convince anybody of anything anyway.

Hyperspace Fool,

We are humans. Do you not think even with all your experience, you have limits? How can you claim to know what hyperspace is, the whole thing? It's not about being me or being you, it's about us being humans, with limits. You too are fallible, you too can have optical illusions which can fool you (just like the model you use to interpret hyperspace experience can be wrong), you too will have bad knees one day and you too will die, no matter how many lucid dreams you can have a night or how many shamans you've met in life, or if youre a shaman yourself.

There was this amazonian shaman I was working with, who had a 94 year old father, a master shaman. This old shaman said that even shamans themselves don't really know what these other dimensions are, that they just learn to navigate it and some tricks and strategies that can help, learned from experience or passed down through generations, that they feel they have a mission to make a certain bridge between the worlds, but that they are not fully aware of what it all is, ultimately. I find it ironic that this guy, an amazing person who's life was dedicated to these altered states, was humble enough to confess this, and yet you claim to know everything about hyperspace??

If you want to believe that you know the answers, you are free to keep your beliefs if they dont hurt others and arent being imposed, but accept that others might not share them, and just because they dont share them does not mean they are wrong, harmful, materialists, rape-victim non-believers and offenders or stupid jungle explorers..

Which brings me to this whole materialist thing. It's funny that you keep equating me (and anyone who disagrees with you) to being a materialist, when im certainly not at all. I have several times stated in this forum about science's limits. I just dont constantly explain my existential views, also because it's pretty complex to write, but I certainly do not claim that the universe is only the observable universe or that science knows everything or similar. I have had several really significant life experiences that have shown me otherwise too.

Regarding the people that messaged you and the mod that cant speak out, Im sorry that people feel this way. Mods aren't perfect either, we are all people, but we're certainly open to suggestions. It's not like I or others here have a vested interest in materialism. We are merely trying to keep an attitude based on scientific knowledge in the areas where scientific knowledge pertains, because we have seen so many problems with a less than critical mystical attitude elsewhere. Nobody gets paid for this job and we neither do it because we feel great with the power. Its impossible to keep everybody happy, there is always someone complaining and there's also people thanking. So what do we do, who do we follow? Im completely open to suggestions. Did you ever try being a moderator? It's not very easy I tell you. If you want a mystical forum, there are several others that are more appropriate I think.

You can form any image you'd like about me and how bad I am, partial, non-expert, flawed, materialist, doing harm to the community. I have my clear conscience about my actions.

I agree with you that there is sometimes a scientific arrogance in this forum, but at the same time there is a mystic arrogance too. I have mediated several discussions here, pmed people, tried to find a mid point. Unlike what you think, I am not sided with the materialistic viewpoint. I merely hope that whoever expresses themselves do it respectfully, accepting other viewpoints instead of imposing that they know The Truth. And if its something that is under scientific knowledge's scope, you can be sure we will require this to be understood. For example, no matter what someone's demons or angels tell them and how sure they are of their power, we will not allow people to suggest to others to put fire near flammable solvents. Facts are facts, beliefs are beliefs.

I conceed to your point that it would be less partial if I did both sides of complains publicly or privately, and I have done so in different occasions. But here in this thread I indeed talked to you instead of to Art. Which leads me to Art.

You know when Art was to become a moderator, we have had a talk before because we knows his personality and way of talking, its impossible to not notice it. He has a very unique style of writting and being, and many people wont take it well, his no-compromise style. But you see, we decided he should come in and im glad for it. He is an amazing person doing a lot of hard work for this community, and he very often will say things that many think but wouldnt dare saying. Im very thankful for his presence, and you can be sure if I dont agree with how he said something, if I feel the line was crossed between "harsh but true" to "unnecessarily disrespectful", i will talk to him, as I have in the past. In this very thread he appologized himself for his first post to you. He is a human, who knows he can be mistaken, unlike you it seems.

He for sure often thought about just not being a mod because of the reaction of some people to him, but Im glad he's n the team would hope he just keeps being as he is, and keeps being open to admiting when he is wrong or over does his words.

In any case, art, please do try to keep a respectful tone even though you strongly disagree with HF. If you feel you can add something constructive, please do. If not, better not let your emotions run free on this discussion, its not constructive and will just further deteriorate the atmosphere.


HF, I dont know if you realized it but you arent the first person to come here in the Nexus claiming to know everything about hyperspace (or the universe). This is not the kind of place for this kind of know-it-all attitude though. You're free to teach your Truth elsewhere, here we all stand equally in face of the Unknown.

You have gone back to using the appeal to majority. Yeah of course we are all minority, havent you noticed? You included. How many of all these spiritual people you talk about would approve of your poly drug use, as Ive asked before? Not many.. Does that mean you are wrong? No.. It just means you are you, and you dont have to follow the dogmas of the majority.

Lastly, regarding "spirits" and 'the spirit molecule", I already addressed this point with an example from an amazonian ethnic group, how they interpret the word spirit differently than what you seem to. Just because someone wrote "spirit" doesnt mean the meaning will be the same one you have, and neither the end conclusions which you derive about how one must act in life and in hyperspace.

I think one interesting constructive outcome that could end out of this discussion is if you would take a look at the health and safety sections and the FAQ entry about dark dmt trips and would suggest how we can improve it, from a multi-sided angle. So that we work together, instead of against each other. What do you think? Thousands of people read those pages so the best it is, the more we are helping others around the world.

What kind of apology is followed by a video of teenage nerds fighting where one of them is claimed to be hyperspace fool?!

Hence my comment afterwards for him to prevent further unnecessary posts from being written. Art clearly has strong feelings towards this whole issue, so whats important is not to let this take the best out of the discussion and rethink twice before posting, to not further degenerate the discussion, which is an advice valid for all.


tele you already made clear in this thread that you are not happy with some of art's posts. If you would like to make any constructive criticism, suggestion on what we can do, please do so, maybe pm me/him. But to keep hammering this same point isnt being very constructive and helping to lead this whole thread into a positive direction.

Consider again if we want the easily rudest and most disrespectful member of our forum to be a moderator?

Yes, we do.

So you speak on behalf of everyone?

No more so than you.

Yes, here I am asking our opinion as a community. I would like to hear other peoples opinions.

Whoever feels they are happy or not happy with art's posts are free to send a pm to the traveler, who can decide about it in the end..

And on we go. Can we be constructive about the whole "how to deal with dark experiences/entities" now? Can we offer more tips, strategies, tools, that from different perspectives and beliefs can help others going through this path? Would be interesting to have more views and see if there's anything we can improve in the health and safety section and appropriately FAQ section, considering we can help others in the future.

I can see I've shit the bed once again. I think I'll just say my tiny piece and then slink off to go about my day.

Intelligent debate was never an option here. Objective assertions regarding subjective beliefs shut the door on intelligent discourse, and they tend to devolve into 6 page circle jerks (much as this one has). Once this happens, I go with the flow; I'm not immune to childishness myself. The epic nerd battle was just for fun. Don't get your panties all in a twist.

Hyperspace Fool - I appreciate that you are able to spell and construct a cohesive written argument. This doesn't change the fact that I find the content of your argument embarrassing. Worse than this it is disempowering - not just to you, but to all who are prone to seeking out easy answers. There is nothing easy about DMT - not the experience itself and certainly not the defining of what it all means. There is no plausible explanation - but yours, I feel, is the worst of the bunch. This is my ever so humble opinion.

You back up your claims with assertions that they're supported by billions of people. This is crap, but just say that it's not. Billions of people also believed that the earth was flat until recently. Now, I'm not a scientist (as previously disclosed), but I have it on fairly good authority that this belief has since been debunked. You cite the bible and organized religion(s) as evidence of further proof, but it's all just dogma - and for me at least, DMT is the great dogma killer. Plenty of people believe that there is an angry man up in the sky who sits in judgement of their actions, and if they drink or smoke or wear white after Labor Day, he's sending them straight to hell. Good on them. If that works as a lifestyle, eases their burden and allows them to feel more pious, who am I to say otherwise or interfere with their good time? Personally, I don't choose to live in such a tiny little box. I take psychedelics to bust out of the box, not to crawl deeper inside it.

You are welcome to your own beliefs. Just don't come around here presenting them as fact.

The Traveler is trying to enjoy a bit of a respite if I'm not mistaken.





My own personal mantra for dealing with "dark visions":

Wait for a quiet day with no disturbances or much on the mind. Clean the house. Try and keep a clear mind. In the evening, light a few candles. Take a hot epsom salt bath with white sage burning. Go to bed, under the covers. Relax. Breathe. Wait for the right moment and blast.

No dark scary creatures around this place - cause I don't let them in.

If, in the middle of a footballmatch, people start accusing the referee of being partial or just lousy, the whole match should be stopped.
You cannot discuss both a particular subject and the rules of engagement on how to discuss it, at the same time: You become the referee of your own match.

So first it's embarrassing, then you apologize, and then it's again embarrassing?

On the original matter of this topic, this is my feelings toward it, too. Therefore even if they come knocking it's easy to tell them to F off.

I respect and see the validity in the points brought up by both Art and Hyperspace fool. I think letting both views coexist simultaniously in a paradox marinade is truely the open way.

Thank you all for this discussion I agree with all of you :-)

agreed

I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to anyone here who finds my presentation of my interpretation of my experiences to be off putting. This was not my intent, and I have never said that I know everything, or that I am infallible. (To the contrary of how others have portrayed my posts.)

I believe what I have said speaks for itself, and is self-evident for anyone who cares to read what I have written. I may be capable of phrasing some of this better, but I am in no way ashamed of anything in my posts... considering that they were all written on the fly and only given a cursory edit, they are quite cogent and not the least bit embarrassing.

Please feel free to re-read the posts in question, and I only ask that you hear my voice in them with the abundant love for all of you here that they were written with.

And, no hard feelings.

I know how these things can get, and don't begrudge or even look down on a little good-natured confrontation.

There are plenty of things that we all agree upon, and when we don't see eye to eye... it doesn't diminish my respect for any of you, or my willingness to be friends.

I think we all have a lot more in common than we have differences... after all, we are all spicenauts.

The experience of spice is so mind boggling, that to expect any consensus about what it all means would be foolish. I am often at a loss to wrap my head around this miraculous thing.

Anyway, I look forward to more fruitful and less contentious exchanges with you all in the future.

Sorry if my presentation of my thoughts ruffled your feathers.

But, in the end... how bad is it to suggest that people seek out the awesome and compassionate light beings and give the entities that radiate malice a wide berth? Seriously. Whatever you think they are, it is relatively common sense to not actively seek out suffering.

Even if you completely disagree with my subjective sense that these beings can harm or suck on you... is it really such bad advice to focus on uplifting and heavenly experiences?

I think not.

While I may be absurd, foolish and have imperfections... I am not idiotic, my opinions are not silly, and I do not spew nonsense. I happen to be rather articulate most of the time. You may disagree, and I have never once suggested that you can not... but you can not say that I have not made sense.

As endlessness has said, we are all in a minority. I did not mean to suggest that because billions of people believe in supernatural beings that this alone makes it true, or that the number of people believing it is an argument for also believing it. I am absolutely sure this is not what I said. It is simply a fact put forth to put the debate in context.

Anyway, I still love you all. Even Art.

Peace...
HF

'Nuff said. That's a very gentlemanly response.