Entropymancer thank you for the apology with concern to the issue of you saying that i said alcohol was a drug when i clearly didn't. I did find the way you where posting things that i never said a bit unnecessary. Again thank you for your apology on that issue to. Ok for me drug and enthogen have come to mean different things to me personally on my enthogen journey than what is put in a dictionary. For me an enthogen is something sacred that connects me with the earth and myself on a deep and spiritual level and a drug is something that changes the chemical levels in my brain but does not connect me to the earth in a deep and spiritual, self awareness kind of way. I wanted to agree to disagree not to take the easy way out but to say hay you seem to feel that drug and enthogen are the same things where i feel they are not. It is simply that these words mean different things to us, we both have come to our own different conclusions from our own journeys that we are on. So again i say i agree to disagree k no worries i always enjoy a good healthy debate as long as my words aren't taken out of context and things are said that i have clearly not said.

Much Peace

the personal circumstance of associating a psychedelic experience with god is based on the cultural context in which the person understands or thinks he or she understands god.

Now you're misconstruing my words: I haven't said that drugs and entheogens are the same thing.

I've simply been making the point that many drugs have the capacity to be used as entheogens. Obviously not all drugs can (I wouldn't expect a spiritual experience to come from popping an advil or some tums), but nearly all psychoactive drugs have the capacity to be used in this way.

I am saying that entheogens (as the word is typically used... I'm excluding drumming, dance, music, speaking in tongues, etc. for the sake of simplicity) are all drugs. This notion is supported by the definition posted by Phlux, which agrees with me that it is the context of use that defines an entheogen - "a psychoactive substance used in a religious or shamanic context"

If you'll permit me to press the point a bit further (I promise this is the last time... if we still aren't understanding each other I'll drop it):


I think that's a great definition.



It's the italicized part that I disagree with. I like that definition, that a drug is something that affects a chemical change in the brain (technically this defines a psychoactive drug, but that's really what we're discussing anyway).

I simply don't understand why the italicized part of the definition is necessary. It confuses things. Everyone has a different personal understanding of spirituality, and to inject your personal spiritual worldview into a definition of a noun that has no inherent spiritual connotation can only serve to engender confusion.

And once you take away that special condition (which isn't reflected in any other definition of 'drug' that I can find), then there's nothing that stops a drug from being an entheogen (in the right context), or an entheogen from being a drug.

It seems like at the heart of it, you basically have just redefined the word 'drug' to exclude entheogens simply because you don't like the cultural connotation (drugs are bad mmkay?)

See this is how I sometimes get when I have too much. But it's not all that simple. Sometimes I can drink the night away and be at ease with it all but still fully be in control, feeling healthy with good sense of control.

But people who know me can verify I have a very strange curve of tolerance when it comes to alchol, and it can be very unpredictable. The annoying thing is it happens at the worst of times. Like having just a few social drinks in a laid back environment. It goes something like sober, sober, sober, sober, sober, FUCKING WRECKED. There is literally no inbetween.

So I can go out to do some shopping, then stop off at the pub to catch up with friends, then wake up the next day, splitting head-ache and having to buy all the stuff I bought again because I lost it. 4 mobile phones in 9 months... really bad.

I guess this explains my current negative view on alcohol, but looking back to the past it has been quite inspirational to me. Many a good jam session on the booze. And many a deep conversation.

I'll throw in my two cents and defend alcohol. Yes, we all know that alcohol can be used in a negative way, that is undeniable. But I personally find it to be quite entheogenic at times. Nothing relaxes me more than taking off my boots after a long day of work, sitting in a chair on the porch, kicking my feet up, and enjoying a nice ale while I ponder my quiries about life and commune with nature. And there are few things I enjoy more than drinking a pint with a good friend as we discuss all the questions that we have about life, people, and the world.

So Entropy, you are saying that entheogens are a subset of the class of substances called "drugs"?

I think there comes a time to agree to disagree and stop digging.

It's not worth it just over loose terminology.

Yip PEACE Entropymancer agree to disagree

Much Peace

Yeah, that's basically what I'm saying.

Of course "entheogen" has two meanings. One meaning is anything which inspires the divine within. This includes practices other than contextualized drug use. For example: prayer, dance, drumming, music, speaking in tongues, childbirth, fasting, purging, self-flagellation, masochism, performance art, asceticism, ritual sacrifice of animals or even humans, and a whole host of other things. All kinds of people have developed all kinds of ways to get in touch with the divine. I can't claim to understand some of these (monastic self-flagellation and human or animal sacrifice are prime examples of ones that I simply can't wrap my head around... or perhaps don't want to).

But using the term in that context is rare.

Typically what is meant by 'entheogen' is the definition put forth by Phlux - a psychoactive substance used in a ritual or religious context to inspire the divine within. And a psychoactive substance is by definition a drug. So an equivalent phrasing of the definition is "a drug used in a ritual or religious context to inspire the divine within".

So yes, under the narrower definition of entheogen that Phlux quoted, all entheogens are drugs. (If anyone disagrees on this point, I'd be very interested to hear any example of an entheogen which is a psychoactive substance but is not a drug)

But calling entheogens a subset of drugs can be misleading. I don't mean to imply that a drug is either an entheogen or a non-entheogen. It's all about context. The example I gave earlier about psilocybin mushrooms is demonstrative of this. I wouldn't call eating mushrooms and watching cartoons to be an entheogenic experience. When used in that way, mushrooms are a psychoptic psychoactive drug, but they aren't an entheogen. But by contrast, when someone eats mushrooms within their own ritualized context (whatever that may be) and experiences the river of light and love, life and death, pain and sorrow, that courses through the universe and cracks the orb of consciousness wide open, that's by all means an entheogenic experience, and in that context mushrooms are undeniably an entheogen. To say that mushrooms are an entheogen, or that mushrooms are not an entheogen completely misses the point.

Some drugs are much easier to use as entheogens than others, that's undeniable. Just as I don't believe I could inspire the divine within through self-flagellation or human sacrifice, I likewise don't believe I could inspire the divine within through the use of cyclobenzaprine (a muscle relaxer, trade name Flexeril). But just because I can't access the godhead that way in no way means that someone else couldn't. If someone uses cyclobenzaprine ritually to unite with the godhead, who am I to say that they're not using it entheogenically? The literal meaning of the word entheogen (creating the divine within) clearly indicates an intensely personal connotation, as everyone experiences their inner spirituality in different ways.

When someone says that they only use entheogens, what they're really saying is that they only use drugs within ritualized contexts with the intent of inspiring the divine within (or experiencing the godhead, or whatever equivalent vernacular phrase they choose).

The whole point is that entheogenic experiences are defined by the context of practice, whether that practice is drug-taking, dancing, or human sacrifice.

My problem with the word entheogen is that it implies divinity within us.

Divinity:

1. The state or quality of being divine.
2.
1. Divinity The godhead; God. Used with the.
2. A deity, such as a god or goddess.
3. Godlike character.
4. Theology.
5. A soft white candy, usually containing nuts.

This implies that there is something godlike within us which I think is a pretty big assumptions. Unless you definition of god is creatures with two legs two arms a head some other organs some brains walking around the planet earth.

I prefer the terms psychoactive substance, psychedelic substance, mind altering substance, hallucinogen, deliriant. Those words don't imply things that probably don't exist.

Well said, burnt!

I much prefer the terms psychoactive drugs or psychoptic (visionary) drugs over the term entheogen. Less ambiguous, and much less contingent on a shared metaphysical worldview.

Personally I try to avoid the terms psychedelic (because of its connotation of the '60s counterculture movement) and hallucinogen (because most so-called hallucinogens don't produce true hallucinations at typical doses, and it neglects the very important psychological/cognitive aspect).

I would just like to comment on this paragraph, eating mushrroms and watching T.V doesn't change mushrooms from being an enthogen into a drug. Someone's ignorant actions or misuse of e.g.: an enthogen does suddenly make it a drug its the persons actions that are incorrect not the enthogen which is incorrect. An enthogen is a gift and its beauty and worth as a powerful teacher doesn't just get destroyed due to the manner in which someone wishes to misuse them and disrespect them

Just some of my thoughts

Much Peace

So really, it's just a matter of Entropymancer feels that the definition of these substances changes when the way they are used changes, and Aegle disagrees with this and thinks and any circumstance they are still entheogens. I actually have a hard time disagreeing with BOTH trains of thought, but you guys will never agree with each other. You have both stated your positions clearly and I think this arguement can be laid to rest.

No arguing, just I felt I wanted to put one more idea out there from Entropymancer latest post it welled up a thought. Yip I agree issue closed from my side

Much Peace

What about poppies then? Opium poppies have been used as an entheogen and a sacrament for thousands of years.

But opium was also used as an antinociceptive (painkiller). If someone is in intense pain and using opium to numb the pain rather than to connect with the pantheon, are they "misusing and disrespecting" the drug? Or what about a schizophrenic using a couple tenths of a gram of psilocybin mushrooms a day to ammeliorate their condition?

Are you implying that there's only one right way to use a substance? If so, how do you know that your way is the right way?

Also, what about people who don't believe that there's divinity within us (the point burnt brought up)? What if I believe the experience is entirely physical sensations induced by neurotransmitters? It sounds like your definition of entheogen presumes that your understanding of divinity and spirituality is either universally understood, or the only correct understanding?

I find this discussion quite stimulating! This is what I remember the forum being like, open and avid exchanges of ideas, and gaining understanding of both different and broader perspectives.

Yes, it was like this before. I'm thrilled to see such open and intelectual discussion (although I have little to offer either side).

However, to me, the INTENT of the use is more important than the actual substance. Ask any currandero who is collecting the plants, cooking them up in his pot all day, blowing his mapacho smoke over the pot (again all day) and serving to those who need healing. He will say that intent is more important than the chemical makeup of what's in his Ayahuasca brew. Intent is what makes something right or wrong, good or bad, enthogen or drug. Knocking over an old lady because one thinks it is funny, probably not so good. Knocking over an old lady to save an infant from an oncoming car....

Also a very good point on the use of opium poppies. Are they an ethnogen, a drug, both, neither....it depends on the intent of use. I have used the opium poppy but not in an entheogenic way. I was not looking for the devine within, I was trying to get rid of horrible W/D's from heroin. Does that make my use ABUSE? Maybe, but does it mean that I am abusing an enthogen; no I believe that in the context I was not abusing an entheogen.

Also, wouldn't society determine which plant is an entheogen? If there were no humans, would they still be entheogens?

A SWIM might suggest that the term entheogen is only in use to legitimise drugs used with good intent by psychenauts in the midst of prohibition, to separate them in the public's mind, as well as their own minds, from drugs that can be noticeably harmful and have therefore served the authorities well in demonising ALL drug use (apart from state-sanctioned recreational substances, of course!).

So the term entheogen could in part have arisen from the community distinguishing harmless drug use from harmful, to show that their use is one of integrity rather than self-destructive instant gratification. This is a counter-move to governments distinguishing revenue-collecting traditional Western recreational substances ('not drugs' from the 'evil' that is 'drugs'. It's a marketing game. I'd never even heard of the term entheogen before I stumbled upon this forum.

For the many tribes who actually showed us these substances, I suspect it's all just 'medicine' to them.

If I had to label a use of alcohol as entheogenic, this would be it. I would use the term to describe the use which enhances one's life and facilitates a Dionysian exuberance, rather than facilitating escapism or alleviating personal responsibility.

I don't use it much anymore, myself--except but very lightly for social lubrication--but that has more to do with money and physical wellbeing more than anything. Plus, the "bar scene" is a bit lacking anymore.

I think that clears up intent rather well. I can see the word entheogen being used more for for a substance in which the intent for spiritual growth or psychological growth basically healing and gaining knowledge is there. I just don't like throwing divine with it sounds too eh presumptually religious i guess.

I definitely agree that intention is everything but I don't think its enough personally to change an enthogens worth or meaning. Enthogens are door ways for me to access sacred and ancient knowledge so that I can grow as a person. If someone journeys with enthogens with a negative or ignorant intent that persons experience in turn will most likely not be productive or positive. You get back what energy you send out. Im not Christian in any way shape or form but I have no problem with the word enthogen, yes in some terms the word does refer to god or a godlike presence the way I see it god is just a representation of energy in itself.


Much Peace