"If you beat around the bush, and tell someone the reason they are having trouble quitting weed is scientific when it's not, then you are slowing down their progress, because they won't be thinking in the correct terms to effectively handle the situation."

I am beginning to think that you believe that your opinion is the end all be all of everything..even when other theories have at least SOME scientific studies behind them as opposed to the alternative, you still come here talking about people acting as if they're theory is "scientific when it's not".

I find this humerous, since not too long ago I mentioned I had adrenal fatigue from smoking cannabis all day for 6 years..and you came here to argue that there is no scientific evidence for adrenal fatigue..well there is some and there is also some debate there so fine..but you seem to want to refer to science there when it is going to support your opinion..but when people here post numerous scientific studies to support the idea of physical withdrawls from cannabis, you all of a sudden change your perspective and disreguard science..hmmm not too consistant..and you even go off on random tangets that are psuedo cop-outs about everything physical being based on mental constructs..if so-so what? You arent really saying anything profound or useful there..it is just sort of babbling out of context..

matukuul, How do you explain withdrawal symptoms in rats if they cant have "psychological" effects?

Your arguments arent very well developed IMO, you disregard scientific knowledge because it doesnt fit with your world view instead of getting informed on the very scientific knowledge you are denying and then making an informed criticism why you think this or that study is flawed. Then you say the proof of your argument is with some subjective testimonials that you arbitrarily picked out of the many other testimonials around the forum and elsewhere ? Do you really not see the flaws in your line of thinking?

I seriously hope you can step back and rethink a little bit, and that from now on you do not try to impose your view on others specially when you are not able to back it up with relevant arguments. Do notice that this is not about which side of the argument you are taking, but about HOW you disagree and post on the forum.

Ummm your the one relying on science when you claim adrenal burnout, that's why I looked it up. You claim science backs up your adrenal fatigue, but it doesn't! So you're whole argument of adrenal fatigue just sounds like it could have been something else, like more likely stress, that was making you feel that way, because there's definitely no way any doctor could have proved it, since its not a real thing in the medical community! You're clearly just butthurt that I'm pointing this out to you, IMO.

But anyway...



Rats don't have a choice... If you haven't noticed, we are a lot more developed than they are. They're not even aware. You give ANY rat cocaine or heroine, he gets addicted... You give me cocaine or heroine, or some other human beings who can control such things, and we don't, while other human beings do....... Hmmmmmm... We are the focus point of this reality. We are creating it as we go along. Not rats.

The problem with this worldview is: you can not back it up.
Even science can not explain this sort of behavior.
I.Example people who experience a so-called "miracle cure", If one sees it holistically - one can presume - this soul has chosen to heal itself! And take the cancer healing as some sort of "mindchange" becoming physical.

We can not prove how it works. And still, often it does..

Ummmm, what?

I've seen nothing of the sort from you...would you care to reiterate?

You see, now what you are saying is plain dangerous. You are basically suggesting that people can take any drug, including the ones where FACTS are absolutely clear that they are physically addictive, like heroin, and they will be fine if they have a "strong" mind. This is a completely wrong idea, and a liability for the message you are passing. This is absolutely out of line, and for this I am suspending you for one month. I hope when you come back you rethink your presence in this forum.

Our common friend endlessless, doesn't like the idea of being the almighty god of this universe who can decide over body and mind constitution at will.
I can understand his doubts + after the last post I have to agree to endless, that you WERE out of line!

I think that the main point matukuul was trying to make had alot to do with the idea of self restraint, taking responsibility and just dealing with the addiction head on.
I've personally never been addicted to anything, though I choose not to use opiates etc because I don't want to test myself, my method of staying out of the deep end has always been moderation and staying in-charge, because the power is all in you.
This being said, I know plenty of people who cannot help themselves, therefore the arguement that Cannabis can be physically addictive after such frequent exposure over long periods of time, is entirely valid. Don't be ignorant.

In my personal experience, I've found taking responsibility for my own actions, for what I do, when, why and how I do it, helps dramatically in the way of not becoming mentally or physically addicted to this plant.
Whilst exploring the methods described earlier in this thread, you should reinforce the above also, you'll be suprised how much control you can really have.
The gratification afterwards is astounding.

Best of luck in using less. Peace and love.
Stay Safe.

I suggest promoting Void after posting this!

I thought I would clarify that I posted this before your reply Fractal, which clearly states that I restated that it may be possible for people to have withdrawals from Cannabis. I should have said that only the Low-toxicity was indisputable, not the Physical Withdrawals, I apologize for making a mistake.

"I will restate my point by saying that it may be possible for someone to have withdrawals, but in my case they were non-existent. Having smoked nearly everyday heavily for 8 years and then stopping cold turkey, I experienced no withdrawals or discomfort."

I would like to add that I do research and read through scientific studies and literature. I just don't trust alot of science, but I do not write off any scientific evidence without valid cause. We are all different, and having personal subjective experiences as well as scientific research and studies will help us to understand things better (Hopefully)

P.S. I did not have physical or mental withdrawals from quitting Cannabis. I did not have Insomnia, Shakes, Sweats, Emotional Swings, etc. etc. The one thing that did happen was my dreams slowly returned to full, vivid, extremely beautiful experiences. Since starting smoking again, I remember less of my dreams but they are more present than before when I was smoking heavily. Peace.

WATCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - FOREFRONT SCIENTIFIC CANNABINOID RESEARCHER - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7Qv8wmAlpc

That's all I got.

it makes sense to me that opiate and marijuana addiction are the result of a weak mind and not the other way around.... i think that's all matukuul was trying to say

someone should! tobacco doesnt even get you high how have they not noticed? they must not have weed.

ill help him out cause i agree with him

You are not helping boosie, because what he says makes no sense. The term physical addiction is there exactly to differentiate between what is under the sphere of influence of the psychological state, and what is beyond it, in the sense that, no matter what are your psychological characteritics, the body will still have those effects. You can be as "strong" as possible mentally, and yet if you take a big dose of an anaesthetic, you will be put to sleep/anaesthesized. No matter how enlightened one thinks he is, we are still humans, follow physical laws, biological limits, etc etc.

You can be as strong willed as you want, but if you are addicted to opiates, you will still feel the withdrawal effects. Maybe you can deal with them better, maybe you have some tricks to help you, but you will still feel them, because its beyond your psychological control, its about physical changes in your Central Nervous System. With that being said, with cannabis it seems its not as clear cut as with other substances such as opiates, and there is still some controversy regarding physical addiction, though research seems to point out reasonably clear that there are physical changes, just that maybe the symptoms are not as obvious in some people, for some or other reason.

In any case, boosie, the problematic issue here is mostly about what matukuul (and now you) said about opiates. Do you not realize how offensive (and scientifically incorrect) saying that people addicted to opiates are "weak minded" is? It seems to show you have no experience with it, plus very little compassion and understanding for the fact that there are several people here, long time members or not, that are very strong minded people and yet had to deal with opiate addiction in their lives and suffer the consequences, and that when you say such a thing, its as if you are saying they are inferior people. This is very out of line.

I hope you dont tread on the same path as matukuul.




Thank you for clarifying, Kronas, that is a good post. Indeed its important to consider scientific evidence as well as one's subjective experiences.

As I mentioned before, withdrawal and addiction of cannabis is not exactly in the same league as opiates, for example, where physical effects are much more pronounced. The lipid-soluble and slow releasing THC aspects may (or may not?) have to do with it. It still seems that evidence points out that there are potential physical effects and that some people are more prone to it than others. Would you consider yourself slim, fat, normal? Whats your diet like? Whats your usual metabolism speed, and where you exercising regularly during the break?

Maybe up/downregulation of neuroreceptors happen faster with some people too?

Its good for you that you didnt have issues quitting cannabis. For me the physical effect I most noticed was the appetite changes in the first days. In the positive realm, I also definitely there is a big difference with dreams and sleeping.. Did you also notice that when taking that break, you needed less sleep to feel rested?

This is far from a coherent argument against science...endlessness has already addressed the relevant "points" with regards to the specific claims made about withdrawal, there's really nothing more to add. Additionally, nowhere in this quote is there any compelling argument against science, nor is there any superior alternative to the scientific mentioned.

Someone is seeking help for his addiction problems and it spirals into this same old ideological debate again.

Looks to me like some people are in denial about their own habit and therefore have to respond so agressively and in such an unconstructive manner. Especially when they start acusing others of being ideologically driven and agressive.

The general tone of these posts tends to be "smoking cannabis everyday is good, you can never smoke too much, anyone who disagrees wants to impose his will on others, science is a conspiracy against the undisputable spiritual enlightenment of all stoners and if you are strugling with cannabis addiction you are just making it up or you're just a weak person with the wrong set of ideas".

Ok, again, I barely read the thread, but I did see the couple people bitching about my post on the second page. Listen to what I'm saying, or read it, you can't get addicted to weed. Dependant maybe, addicted, no. There's innumerable ways your own psyche and consciousness plays tricks on you. Imagine if your dog dies, you feel saddened. You may call it love or some other emotional reaction, but what it really is, is the loss of attachment to the dog. You wouldn't say you were addicted to the dog. It's the natural pains of not having the dog anymore. If you're having trouble quitting weed, it's not an addiction, it's the pains of letting go. It's become a dependancy for you. It's become what you do in your spare time, when you're bored, before bed, when you're stressed out. And you may not be realizing this, but in the back of your mind, in your subconscious, you're freaking the fuck out. Give it time man, honestly. Like I said, put the pipe down, smokey the bear.

It seems you need to read the thread more thoroughly then. You are not backing up your post with anything but your own subjective ideas. Why should we listen to what you write? What do you have to say about the scientific articles posted? What about the opinion of our resident doctor?

I've smoked marijuana continuously for nearly 10 years. I've tried to quit numerous times with zero success. I've been able to kick just about every drug out there - but not marijuana.

A few nights ago snozz? talked about taking a break and others mentioned kicking it altogether. This was right after a trip to the dispensary - another hundred down the drain. It had me thinking - again - about my own failed attempts at quitting and how much money over the years I've spent on the habit.

Anyone that comes here and says it's not - who are you kidding? I've got about two bowls left and will test this theory soon. I might fail - again - but it's worth another shot. My lungs and pocketbook will thank me.

Just make sure you eat real well alpha and try to sleep whenever you feel like it because for the first week it was real hard for me to get to sleep at night, but sometimes I would sort of find relief sleeping for an hour or 2 in the day..it can be hard though depending on your schedule.

Also..ayahuasca seriousily helped. I think harmalas actaully have alot of the habit breaking properties of ibogaine since they share that same beta carboline backbone and there is someevidence to back that up..all I know is that for me weekly ayahuacsa sessions made not smoking alot easier. Durring the day I just drank some hot chocolate made from pure dark chocolate(the camino stuff) and honey and it helped also with the irritability.

Trust me, after a week or so the craving dissapears and you start to feel just fine without smoking. It is just that first week without smoking that got to me..but I had some insights into my own use of cannabis that I gained from an ayahuasca experience and they kept me focused on not smoking. Once I gained that focus it was rediculousily easy to stop despite the physical withdrawl I felt for a few days. Mentally I was finished and felt I no longer needed it so those that are here telling people it is all mental are full of it. I had made my mind up that I needed a long long break from cannabis and I believed I would be fine without it..I no longer felt I needed it-yet I still experienced some physical withdrawl. I think alot of people here saying there is no physical withdrawl for anyone at all are in denial.

Also who the hell is anyone here to call anyone else weak willed or minded? This is rediculous.. Am I weak minded for being able to quit cannabis just like that? I just did it when I chose to do it. It was not like I had been trying to quit for months etc..I just drank ayahuasca and realized alot of stuff abotu my relation to cannabis and how it was holding me back, and how it related in some ways to my health and so I stopped smoking it. How does that make me less strong mentally? Just becasue I expeience some physical withdrawl(and still did not go and smoke) that makes me have less will or something?

If you guys were really so strong willed or minded like you apparently claim than you would be able to accept the idea that there can be some mild withdrawl that goes along with heavy cannabis use. All I see is some people here clinging to they're own opinions reguardless of any evidence against those opinions, and all I can assume from that is that some people are in denial..it's like a defence mechanism that goes up when the reality they cling to is threatened. I can admit that is IS physically addicitve in some people at least, yet I still love cannabis and smoke it, just not every day.

I find it really sad and pathetic that some people feel threatened by something like this. They act as if people here are attacking them or something they do..there is something going on psychologically with people who react this way.