I will say theres no way the difference in effects is self suggestion. Absolutely no way! Try it for yourself first rue with mimosa, then use rue with a comparable amount of chaliponga, and the differences ARE NOT subtle at all. For one chaliponga lasts much much longer, and really if youve done both, at least in my eyes theres no way you could not notice the distinct differences.

Cheers!

yes I agree there is something different about chaliponga. I know this becasue I have extracted it as well as brewed with it..and the experience of smoking spice extracted from chaliponga compared to mimosa is different in a few specific ways..

I find chaliponga also much more stimulating. Could there be a xanthine like caffein or theobromine present in it, or some other stimulant? The presence of such a substance could alter the effects of DMT.

The GC/Mass spec is pretty clear to me. There is one dominant compound. The rest of what you are seeing is mostly noise, but could be trace amounts....but by trace amounts I mean the abundance would be significantly less that the major peak and would not contribute much of anything to the experience. I can't read all the numbers on the spec that well so I'm taking endlesses word that the peak mass matches that of DMT.

If there is one thing the stands out from the spectra it's that there is only one compound of any significant amount.

Just my two cents worth.

Peace.

If there is only only one compound of significant value in the chali, then how do you exlain the vastly different effects? This makes that explanation even harder beccause there is no other alkaloid to point to.

But there are a few important things that are being overlooked..

Consider for instance that the small peaks being reffered to as noise could actually be alkaloids that are more potent by weight than dmt are present and a much smaller amount of them is needed than dmt for instance.

Most important of all it must be understood that there are at the very least two distinct different kinds of chaliponga. They are different plants both refered to and sold as chaliponga. It is possible to tell the differnce jus by looking at the leaves. This is not just a theory of mine it is confirmed that there are several plants referred to as chaliponga and used as aya admixtures

Did you do a blind test? Please do if you didnt yet.. I have had vastly different effects from pharma using same purified compounds, so much I could call them different substances, yet they were exactly the same. Not to mention ayahuasca and other plant mixtures.

More potent by weight? Now lets for a moment play with some numbers.. A peak representing 1% the amount of DMT, that means that, if we take other publications that chali has around 0.5% DMT, then if you take, say, 10g, you are taking 50mg DMT.. 1% of 50mg is 500micrograms... An alkaloid with any significant activity in this amount? I seriously doubt it.

So now we have 2 published papers, plus this GC MS, none finding any other alkaloids in significant amounts. You are free to believe what you want though....

Thank you endlessness.

No i have never done a blind test, and also dont see how i could because, the consistancy and taste of mimosa and chaliponga teas are different enough that it would be immediatley clear which was which upon drinking. Also i understand it could be performed with purified alkaloids, but i also think this would not be an effective method, because whatever it is that makes the chaliponga unique could be lost in the extraction.

Did you consider this possiblility when doing the GC MS, that some unknown might not make it into the test material?

Also it cannot be said for sure that no alkaloid has activity at 500 micrograms. LSD is very active at 500 mics so you really never know...

Also you did not adress the fact that there are several plants referred to as chaliponga, which appear different as well as have wayyyy different potencies. This is the case with many of these plants, including ayahuasca. If you care for more information on the different types of chali, i would be happy to dig it up.

Also i am not trying to insist that there is 5-meo in there, merely insisting that there is something distinct about chaliponga, and this may not be something that is detectable by anylysing the small parts (GC MS) but may really have more to do with plant spirits etc. (yup call me crazy)

But for me like i said, mimosa lasts only 2-4 hours, when i take a chaliponga tea, it lasts so much longer it is obvious, it lasts into the 12 hour mark and beyond. Ill note that this is when combining chaliponga with syrian rue, not ayahuasca. I couldnt tell you why this is, but thats how it is...

Has anyone else ever combined chaliponga with rue? If not seriously do it and then report back. It will be much different than combining mimosa with rue, i will promise you that.

I do appreciate your work very much, just offering my perspectives not trying to convince you of anything.
Cheers and thank you for your valuable analytical work

Could substances like tannins play a role here, in how they affect the digestion of DMT into the system?

I would like to know why chaliponga is active without harmalas.

Don't forget to factor in seasonal alkaloid variability [if applicable] as well as variances in alkaloid content per bioregion. I am unaware of the mechanisms at work here with Chali, but I wanted to point this out. You might need to mass spec more than 1 sample, for example.

Fractal did you have an expereience with orally active chaliponga?? would love to hear about this! never tried it alone myself...

Yes.. I'd like to try this. Starting dosages? What's the experience like?

Thanks endlessness for these test results! I feel this is another nail in the coffin of the 5meo-in-chaliponga story.


True, but endlessness analysed one sample passed to him by polytrip as one that gives the feel of a "high-in-5meo" specimen. Endlessness' results shows how much our subjective judgement is fooled in the absence of objective facts.

That is not to say that chaliponga does not give a 5meo-like twist in the trip. It just says that 5meo is not responsible for it. What may be responsible for it is indeed an interesting mystery. The presence of trace compounds can still synergistically modify the dmt trip even though these compounds may not be present in sufficient amounts to have a biological action by themselves. But of course, all needs to start with blind tests in chaliponga vs pure dmt.


But on the other hand, SWIM has also extracted chaliponga twice (once with naphtha, the other with a limo/xylene/diethlyl ether mixture in 1:1:1 proportions) and the spice he got he found no really different to MHRB spice... auto-suggestion is still something we need to take into account.

Blind tests is what most of this discussion re chaliponga effects boils down to...

If you are really interested in doing this, we could definitely think of ways to mask the taste. Can you feel the difference even if its mixed with caapi? What if you drink it without breathing and follow quickly with some other strong tasting drink? Another option as you said is an extraction, but you wouldnt need to do a typical extraction which could indeed lose some alkaloids depending on solvent used. Nonetheless, you could do a methanol soak (and then make sure its all evapped, maybe add some more ethanol and let it evap again to make sure no methanol traces remain), considering methanol is very broad-range and it would get all the actives and possible interesting substances ( terpenes, alkaloids and phenolic compounds etc). This might help eliminating the taste. Depending on amount and consistence, maybe this can be capsuled or wrapped in some smoking paper and swallowed for no taste at all. Ideally this would have to be done a handful of times to prevent chance guessing.



Do you mean chaliponga as in, locally-used name, or do you mean that there are several varieties inside the Diplopterys cabrerana species? If its the first case, well this was a D. cabrerana. If you mean the second case, then yes there can be variations of alkaloid content, but if 3 GC-MS in different countries with 20 year difference between each, have failed to find anything else significant, while that isnt conclusive (is it ever?), I would say its a pretty good indication.

In any case I would be very glad if you could bring more information regarding types of chali. Trout mentioned there are large and small leafed chaliponga, im not sure what kind it was. Polytrip, do you still have more of this chaliponga? Can you take a picture and measure the size of the leaves?



Some blind tests would be interesting to tell if there really are differences. As for plant spirits, I wouldnt call you crazy, its a belief you have, and not one I share, but you are free to believe what you want if its not hurting others Just to play a bit with you, would plant spirits be present in a purified extraction product? If not, why not, at what point where the spirits left behind? What about in a simple brew, are they there, or where they lost as soon as the plant was manipulated/boiled? Do plant spirits leave the plant if its been stored for too long?

(I hope I dont sound offensive, I mean this in a very light hearted and genuinely curious way)



Very interesting. Did you take it with caapi too and didnt notice the difference, or did you just not take it with caapi? Now one question, were all the the other variables maintained exactly the same (batch and amount of rue/harmalas the same, food you ate that day, other drugs ingested, set and setting, etc)?

Did anybody feel the same that the difference is specially when mixing with rue?



Methanol is very broad range, Im unaware of any known active material that would not dissolve in it.



Youre right it cannot be said for sure, but there is nothing we know of so far in these plants that could account for this. I think though, its more probable, if anything, that if there are other alkaloids, then they might not be active at such low amounts but in synergy they might somehow affect the experience (like CBD affects THC, though CBD needs to be present in considerable amounts). In any case, we go back to blind testing issue.



No worries, im glad to be able to help the community in this way. Expect more to come I hope you didnt take my own questioning and answer to you in a negative way, I appreciate that you or anybody gives their perspective on the subject!



Thats a good question and I dont know enough of pharmacology to answer this...



Is it? How did you consume it, at what dosage? How active?



Yeah but as I said to Harmalosa, there were 3 different GC-MS from different periods, neither showed any 5-MeO, and as Infundibulum said, fact is this was one chaliponga that was thought to have 5-MeO-DMT because of its effects...





Yes!

In any case I am still trying to identify the other peaks, I asked Trout for some help, he said someone he knows might help.. Also maybe someone else here has access to MS libraries?

Just for the record, blind tests are difficult, but doable. It's all a matter of design; unfortunately for our case it is quite troublesome for home experimenters.

One way is to extract dmt from some amount of chaliponga (experiment) and chacruna (control) to get a rough idea about their dmt concentration. Then prepare chaliponga and chacruna (in doses containing roughly same dmt amount) as usual and boil them down to resin. Put resin in capsules and administer to subjects. In the end there'll be just capsules with plant resin; one with chacruna (let's say that's the dmt reference) and another with chaliponga. The aim is whether primed users (i.e those who are familiar with both) can discriminate between the two.

I guess one fairly easy way would be to filter the teas as much as possible, and then mix them with a thick opaque liquid, and try to mask the taste. If this was done and the nose was plugged, then it would probably be alot harder to tell the difference based on taste. I might be interested in doing a blind test in the near future, i would need to find someone to administer the test, and figure out a time that works.

I have combined chaliponga with cappi 4 times, yes it was a different feeling then when i use cappi with mimosa, it was a very different trip with a seemingly more magical, better fitting character. But as many say this could be just subjective interperitations, because even on the same dose of the exact same substance, taken on two different occasions the effects can vary greatly.

That is why I use chaliponga combined with rue as an outstanding example, because ive combined mimosa with rue many times, and chaliponga with rue several times, and theres no question that the effects were vastly different including lasting much much longer than if mimosa was used, these effects i consider not to be as subjective as the "character of a trip".

I would agree that 3 different GC MS tests over 20 years do seem a pretty good indicator, i was unaware of the other ones.

There is much confusion about the labeling of chaliponga. The most common chaliponga is banisteriopsis rusbyana it is a vine, that looks very much like the ayahuasca vine, the leaves of this vine are used, im not sure if the vine contains actives or not. Diplopteries cabrerana is another name for chaliponga, sometimes b. rusbyana and diplop. refer to the same vine, there is also a small bush that is identified as diplopteries cabrerana. This is why at some vendors sites you can find both b. rusbyana and diplop. seeds and leaves.

The most commonly reffered to different types of chaliponga we come across are indeed large and small leaf. I guess it really is unclear to me weather or not they are different species altogether or different varieties of the same species. The information i found about the different types came from not a scientific publication, but from a discussion on forums.ayahuasca.com, it is said the larger darker leaved specimens are much more potent, requiring 5 or less grams, instead of 15 or so grams. You could check the discussion there out for more info. It would be cool to learn more about the different varieties, and if they really are that different.

Personally i have 2 different batches of chaliponga now, I could measure the lengths of the leaves.

As to your inquiry about my thoughts about "plant spirits" it is no offense, but i do think you are attempting to oversimplify it. plant spirits is just a oversimplifiedword i (and others) use to name energies we dont understand that seem to either come from the plants themselves or else are energies that "live" in the plants so to speak, or are extradimenstional beings who are able to attach themselves to the molecules or the unique physical biology of the molecules allows them to communicate with us somehow.

As for if the "plant spirits" or rather unexplainable energies make it into a purified extraction product, Im not qualified to say because ive never used a purified extracted product, exept for freebase dmt (which seems to harbor many spirits and dimensions), . Otherwise its all been mushrooms, mimosa tea, ayahuasca tea, and a few cacti teas, but as for my personal thoughts, of course i think they would make it into a purified product, perhaps in a less direct way, because the same tannin/ unknown compounds that are in the plant are not in the purified product. Its my belief that these molecules either attract these energies or in fact are the physical manifestations of these unexplainable energies themselves.
As for if the spirits are lost when the plant is manipulated, or if it is stored too long come on, now your just trying to tease me If stored too long and the product degraded, then it would be less spiritually active, this seems obvious to me
What im trying to say is the spirits < (poor word anyways), really unexplainable phenomena attatch to live in or are these molecules. That is my belief, that there is something on the other end of this stuff, and for me my experiences have been so complex profound, beyond me, and have the dominating overwhelming sense of tapping into an alien intelligence database that it is impossble for me not to believe there is some external intelligence involved in the process somewhere along the line....

Does that explain more about my belief in things such as plant spirits?

but thank you for your great reply, and no nothing was taken in a negative way, thank you for adressing my posts!

I still suggest someone do chaliponga with syrian rue, and compare that with mimosa rue.

Overall though, great thread and great results, how cool that we have these tools available to the community!

Just pushing the argument here, but one question begs the mind:

Since your aya experiences come from using mhrb or chaliponga (as the dmt-containing admixtures) and given that mhrb also having its own not-only-dmt alkaloid profile, could one argue that you're getting the "dmt-only" trip with chaliponga and the "dmt influenced-from-trace-mhrb-alkaloids" from mhrb? This could very well explain the differences.

In order to claim that chaliponga is a different dmt experience because trace actives modify the effects of dmt, one should not make comparisons to mhrb. He should be comparing to chacruna, a known dmt-only plant source.

That is a good point, but also, its important to note how long the chaliponga/rue lasted, it lasted well into 12 hours, to me that points to something other than the dmt only trip

I took it as a quid..it was not super powerful but there was definatily some activity.

Since i find chaliponga experiences more stimulating than chacruna or mimosa and more mescaline and LSD-like than chacruna or mimosa experiences, and since those substances have strong dopaminergic effects that DMT doesn´t have...i think that you can expect whatever is present in chaliponga to have relatively strong dopaminergic effects.

OK, this isn´t a very helpfull remark, i know.