Exactly. Almost reminds me of the millions who think our climate change is completely natural after overwhelming evidence says otherwise. Right - our impact on this earth after the industrial revolution changed nothing

I am not saying we have made NO impact on the climate, but I do believe the earth goes through stages of warming and cooling that have absolutely nothing to do with what humans do to the planet. There have been how many ice ages? 2-3 that we can confirm? I am not saying we should pollute the air etc, in fact I believe we should do what we can to reduce it. But I do not think we are important as we think.

i think we have to have a openmind for this stuff , we are much more then just flesh we are energy have a soul, i believe in recarnation, we have work to do here just like burn our karma away that is the important thing of life is be good persons it dont care if your are straigt, gay , bisexual etc .. we have to look for the light be pure and by the way i think that are souls does not have a gender it is pure energy it is not male or female just energy that wants to flow throth the path of enlightenment ...

@ 69ron and LLB and Bufoman
Very good points. On one level, homosexuality is an imbalance, as the trait doesn't lend itself to a bloodline's survivability. But on a different level, perhaps it lends itself to a collective survivability of the species. I've always considered this myself.

@ HappyCamper
Your comments are obviously meant to be disrespectful toward an entire demographic and members of the forum. Your use of the term, "fag," is obviously intended to be derogatory and verbally abusive. None of this would be excusable even if your arguments were well-founded and intelligent. If you can't possibly change your opinion or react rationally to criticism, could you possibly offer anything constructive to the discussion? Your intent has been nothing but venomous from the beginning.

Don't think for a second that you're hearing this from a bleeding heart liberal or some new age hippie. My nature is highly militant and austere, and I'm only tolerant to a point; the ignorance and bigotry you display happen to be well beyond that point. Do yourself and everyone else a favor and consider yourself and your "opinions" (there's a little saying about those) more deeply.

WOW! I sense some high temperature in here.

Quite a few people received a PM about their behavior and HappyCamper is on leave for a week.

Shall we go back ontopic now with respect for all sides and good debate instead of spreading hatred?


Kind regards,

The Traveler

I am so sorry I was not trying to start a war. /sigh

I think that people should be completly free to chose thier preference, as long as someones actions doesnt harm any body in any why shape or form its ok with me


Much Peace

Coatl - I meant what I said generally, directed more at others than you. Although I hope you can see know that homosexuality is a physiological state. It is not a choice and their is nothing wrong about it.

Yes, climate change is natural. Accelerating climate change, however, is our [human beings] doing.

If you are interested more on the subject, I suggest you read Hot, Flat, and Crowded by Thomas Friedman. Great read, the first half of the book is chock full of irrefutable knowledge and facts on the subject.

The Earth isn't the only body in the solar system experiencing climate change. Our actions definately have an impact, but there are other forces at work that most people are unaware of.

Alright...



I never said there was anything wrong with it either.

The only thing I'm saying is your not born gay.

[quote='Coatl]

Yes, that's what you're saying--apparently without any evidence to back it up, though. Although practically NO genetic alleles have perfect penetrance, correlations I listed, such as brain anatomy and length of ring finger, PLUS twin studies, demonstrate a very strong genetic component to homosexuality. As far as it's possible to assign a "cause" to homosexuality, that cause seems to be genetic.

Here's a short (and now almost 20 year old) NYT article on the subject. This stuff has been relatively well known for over 20 years now. Time to catch up, 'Coatl.

I think thats interesting personally...
i have a few freinds that have gender reassignment going on... its a trip i cant personally relate, so to me its a fascinating mystery... as to whats going on there... take that mystery though and add fear and feeling threatened by it thats no good IMHO..

I cannot argue the genetics one way or another -- I'm just not versed. The evidence does seem, however, there is a strong genetic component in the determination of one's sexual preference. Like many other traits, sexuality appears to be controlled by many things -- Genetics, environment, psyche, etc. More of a continuum than a dichotomy.

To add some personal experience (which, to me, is more valid than science) I have been inclined towards men from a very early age -- prior to understanding anything about sex or sexuality. I was, as many kids are, curious towards men as many 'straight' boys are towards girls. This is prior to any sort of contact with homosexuals, bad family, or anything else you might throw out. In fact, I have great parents who gave me a wonderful childhood with many blessings. In addition, I spent K-12 in Lutheran school which, ironically, spoke nothing but hell and damnation to those of my kind. 'Christian-like' indeed.

Are homosexuals born gay? I certainly feel I was.

For me, to even consider forming an opinion (for or against) an individual's sexual preference, is a waste of my time. Honestly, Literally and figuratively; "To each his own"

First post ever, long time lurker.

And what a great first post it was! I totally agree with you, the whole idea to judge anyone else because of their personal preferences (sexual or non-sexual) is in my mind hideous.

well some peoples personal prefferences can be pretty hideous and messed up... i worked with sex offenders for 4 years... and their personal prefferences are indeed judged... but that is in no way connected to the current topic out side of the fact that people do and can and yes need to in some situations judge anothers personal prefferences when it effects another person. if it has not dirrect effect on another person then yes that is hideous... i think every on this site knows what it feels like to be judged as a social deveint for their love of psychoactive substances in a society that feels that its morally wrong and destructive to that soceity to do so.
and on that note its another fascinating spin... those that feel that drug use is a wrong because of how it effects a society and have harsh judgement on those who use, have a similar logic thats used in arguements against assisted suicide and gay marriage and all sorts of things even whether bars should have smoking or non smoking laws or if there should be seat belt laws ect... the notion is that is it a determent to the society?
i worked for years trying t o prevent people from killing them selves right in front of me... some times i wondered why i even bothered! its their personal decision how wouldit effect me or society if it was legal for them to kill themselves? in the same vein of logic how would it effect me or society if homosexuals could get married?

To me there are to many people who seem to care too much about what others do and how it effects them... fuck it! let it go! who cares... the arguement is ridiculous!
i remember one therapist who told me the real reason its illegal for people to commit suicide is because few of them full succeed and then they become financial burdens on the state because their are permanently injured... what ever! same arguement for seat belt laws... bullshit....
i would rather live in a society and pay taxes that supports peoples freedom to make those choices or to live or die as they where born to live or die then one that made biased decisions base on money... ugg...
i love that old american ideal... I may not agree with or understand why you do what you do... but i will die for your right to do it... as long as it doesn't DIRECTLY ( not indirectly) effect me in a way that goes against my own personal freedoms. what ever happened to that?

I'm going to apply logic to this argument and lay out a rationale.

Coatl, you believe that people are not born gay.
If you are right, being gay is a choice.
You believe that being gay is a choice.
People who can choose between straight or gay behaviour are 'bisexual'.
Therefore, if you are right that being gay is a choice then...
EVERYONE would be born bisexual.
But they would choose whether to act gay or straight.

Why would you believe this?
As I said before, you can only believe that being gay is a choice if...
YOU are bisexual YOURSELF.
Because if you weren't, you wouldn't believe that there is choice involved, because there isn't choice for you.

So, I now understand why you say you're not "loving the gays".
Because you are a Christian,
The Old Testament says "Thou shalt not have sex with another man: god hates that" (twice).
(Even though you are a woman and god never says he hates THAT.)
So, as a bisexual Christian,
Calling gayness a choice relieves you of the guilt you feel about your bisexuality...
Because if EVERYONE has to make a choice, just like you do, then you are in the same condition as they are.
But the trade-off for the banishment of your unnecessary guilt is your labelling of 100% gay people coupling as 'wrong'.
Because you assume them to be bisexual like you, but to have made the wrong choice.
You do not have experience of how it feels to be straight or gay... only bisexual,
So it is unfair of you to dismiss when others are telling you genuinely that they are 100% gay or straight,
And therefore label gays having made the 'wrong' choice in your ignorance.
That's a selfish trade to make.

So, I have proven by logic that you admit to being bisexual,
And are using the argument that "you're not born gay" to protect your own ego and 'rightness' with respect to your religion.

Now, just because YOU're bisexual, that doesn't mean everyone else is, does it?
Lots of open minded people here are telling you there is no choice in the matter for them.
Seeing as you have no experience in being either straight or gay, you're no expert.
Trust the opinions of those with the experience you lack.




Please note that I am not meaning to offend. If this offends, then whoever may be offended is only offending themselves, because there is nothing wrong with being bisexual, just as there is nothing wrong with being gay or straight. If you can find fault in this logic, please say so. But this is the only logical outcome. Peace and love

I should also mention- you can't say that people are born straight but become gay due to the way their parents bring them up, because EVERY gay person in the world was brought up by straight acting parents. At least, every one I've ever met. Gay couples adopting isn't even an issue here, because they weren't adopting back then.

Homosexuality stretches back at least thousands of years, so you can't blame it on modern pollution. And gay people way back then weren't living in a specific area where they ate a specific diet that turned them 'gay' either. I don't see any other options left to support your belief.

Either it's choice and we're all bisexual, or you're born that way. I think I'd've noticed if I was bi!

I’ve got to say, while I very much believe being gay is 99% genetic, and I accept it completely as a normal way of life for those who are born gay, I myself could NEVER EVER be with a man. Just the thought of it makes me nauseated. Since I was 5 years old, I’ve been attracted to the opposite sex, never towards men. For me it’s completely nauseating to even hug a guy. I’ve been like that since I was a little kid. No one told me to be like that. I was born completely 100% straight and cannot be made gay. It’s impossible.

I’ve heard many gay guys tell me they felt exactly the same as I felt at the age of 5, but instead of being attracted to girls, they were attracted to men. And some gay guys are truly made nauseated by the idea of being with a woman sexually, just as much as I am about being with a man. That reaction of feeling sick to the stomach is I think an instinct. I can’t imagine ever being able to overcome that feeling. If a gay guy feels like that about a woman, even as a child, it must be born in. I just can’t imagine that kind of sick feeling being learned.

Being bisexual is completely different from being gay and straight. It’s almost the exactly opposite. Bisexuals don’t get that sick feeling straight and gay people get from thinking about sex with the gender they are not attracted to sexually. Bisexuals are attracted to both. Many bisexual people don’t know they are bisexual.



Here’s a test to see if you are bisexual, straight, or gay.

Look at a nude picture of the opposite sex that is meant to be sexually stimulating to the opposite sex. If it turns you on, you’re either straight or bisexual. If it makes you feel very uncomfortable, you’re gay. If you’re not made uncomfortable by looking at it, but not turned on, then you’re probably bisexual and don’t know it.

Now look at a nude picture of the name sex as you are that is meant to be sexually stimulating for the opposite sex. If it turns you on you’re either gay or bisexual. If you feel very uncomfortable looking at it, you’re straight. If you’re not made uncomfortable by looking at it, but not turned on, then you’re probably bisexual and don’t know it.