We've Moved! Visit our NEW FORUM to join the latest discussions. This is an archive of our previous conversations...

You can find the login page for the old forum here.
CHATPRIVACYDONATELOGINREGISTER
DMT-Nexus
FAQWIKIHEALTH & SAFETYARTATTITUDEACTIVE TOPICS
«PREV234
James Kent: The Great Consciousness Swindle: Why Philosophers Will Never Find Consciousness Options
 
joedirt
#61 Posted : 5/30/2013 11:40:07 AM

Not I

Senior Member

Posts: 2007
Joined: 30-Aug-2010
Last visit: 23-Sep-2019
Apoc wrote:
[quote=Mr.Peabody] If that is so, then it is more than likely that YOU are a figment of imagination. Not your imagination, just.... imagination, owned by no one.


This I believe is perfect.

If your religion, faith, devotion, or self proclaimed spirituality is not directly leading to an increase in kindness, empathy, compassion and tolerance for others then you have been misled.
 

STS is a community for people interested in growing, preserving and researching botanical species, particularly those with remarkable therapeutic and/or psychoactive properties.
 
joedirt
#62 Posted : 5/30/2013 11:48:47 AM

Not I

Senior Member

Posts: 2007
Joined: 30-Aug-2010
Last visit: 23-Sep-2019
Parshvik Chintan wrote:
DeMenTed wrote:
When you wake up though you then realise that you were dreaming and a rock didn't really hit your head and you have no physical scar.

This is real.

but if i never woke up (or if i woke up every night, but never remembered), i would have a dream-scar just as dream-permanent as the rest of my dream-reality.
surely this is evidence (nay, proof) the dream is real?

joedirt wrote:
Gibran. Yes I can prove I'm not dreaming.
Pinch yourself and ask are you dreaming.
If you ever do this in a real dream you will become lucid.

with no waking(er) state to contrast with this 'dream' what form would lucidity take?
i am reminded of concepts of enlightenment (breaking through maya)

also related eyedea songs



I tink that is an interesting question Parshvik.
I know that when I pinch myself in a real dream and ask "Am I dreaming" I immediately become lucid and aware of the dream and I can run and dive into the air and fly like super man... no zombie apocalypse is going catch me! lol

What you hint at though is the deeper topic that I've been trying to interweave into this thread as well.

WHO IS THIS SELF that we are all talking about it.
Where is it located?

Is there an experiencer and an experience?
Or are both the experiencer and the experience the same thing?

Well let's go back to the dream analogy again.
In a dream 'you' are clearly both the experience and the experiencer. It think everyone would probably agree with that.

In waking reality, as gibran has pointed out, everything is still experienced inside your head. A blind person doesn't experience red. A def person doesn't experience music... etc etc. So to a blind person the experience of sight happens in his head...in the visual cortex to be more precise. Is he separate from the experience of sight? Clearly not to me.

I say there is only this. No experiencer (in the sense of a separate entity) and no experience in the sense of a isolated experience.

The whole thing, the Tao if you will, is moving morphing, ebbing and flowing. The chain of cause and effect (dependent origination) likely has no beginning and will likely have no end...as long as it's defined in terms of time..which is relative.

If your religion, faith, devotion, or self proclaimed spirituality is not directly leading to an increase in kindness, empathy, compassion and tolerance for others then you have been misled.
 
DeMenTed
#63 Posted : 5/30/2013 12:13:14 PM

Barry


Posts: 1740
Joined: 10-Jan-2010
Last visit: 05-Mar-2014
Location: Inside the Higgs Boson
Ok so a lot of people refer to this awake reality as a dream which is fair enough. In the classical sense of dreaming it is widely accepted that the unconscious mind is responsible for classic dreaming. My point is if the unconscious mind generates dreams then is it acceptable that the conscious mind also generates a dream like state?

I'm struggling with this thought.

I would propose that reality (being awake) is as real as it's ever going to get as we can change the course of reality but within an unconscious dream i have no input as to how to change course, ime anyway. In a classic dream ime it is purely experience and not a real phenomenon. I can't express what i'm trying to say in words lol.

If consciousnes is everything as Tatt propses then where does unconsciousness fit in? Is it being anti-alive? When we enter hyperspace are we conscious or unconsciouss? I love this debate, theres so many possibilities Very happy

I think where we are disagreeing is on the choice of adjective we are using to describe the state in which we live our daily lives. Some are saying it's a dream and others are saying it's reality. Surely an unconscious dream and a conscious dream (reality) are different? We can't call both states simply a 'dream' imo
 
ZenSpice
#64 Posted : 5/30/2013 12:16:38 PM

Mostly Ignored


Posts: 560
Joined: 25-Feb-2013
Last visit: 07-Mar-2014
DeMenTed wrote:
I love this debate, theres so many possibilities Very happy

Agreed, many perceptions to contemplate, regardless of personal thoughts on the matter Smile
 
joedirt
#65 Posted : 5/30/2013 12:24:41 PM

Not I

Senior Member

Posts: 2007
Joined: 30-Aug-2010
Last visit: 23-Sep-2019
DeMenTed wrote:

I think where we are disagreeing is on the choice of adjective we are using to describe the state in which we live our daily lives. Some are saying it's a dream and others are saying it's reality. Surely an unconscious dream and a conscious dream (reality) are different? We can't call both states simply a 'dream' imo


I agree. Consider replacing the word consciousness with awareness in a lot of the posts and see if it jives better.

I also love these debates we they remain friendly like this. The whole thing is so utterly fantastic that it demands all rational minds remain humble and open in their views.

Demented I love the wa you question in particular.
You just break it down to simple direct questions.
If your religion, faith, devotion, or self proclaimed spirituality is not directly leading to an increase in kindness, empathy, compassion and tolerance for others then you have been misled.
 
DeMenTed
#66 Posted : 5/30/2013 12:37:13 PM

Barry


Posts: 1740
Joined: 10-Jan-2010
Last visit: 05-Mar-2014
Location: Inside the Higgs Boson
Lol thanks joe Smile i'm no academic so i like to keep it simple Very happy
 
DeMenTed
#67 Posted : 5/30/2013 12:47:20 PM

Barry


Posts: 1740
Joined: 10-Jan-2010
Last visit: 05-Mar-2014
Location: Inside the Higgs Boson
Going back to what Tattvamassi said about consciousnes being everything. I have to disagree with this viewpoint. I would say that 'existence'. Would be a better word to describe everything.

Ive been unconscious but i still existed. So if i'm UNconscious then i'm not a part of consciousness but i'am still very much alive. Just my humble opinion.
 
gibran2
#68 Posted : 5/30/2013 1:01:52 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Salvia divinorum expertSenior Member

Posts: 3335
Joined: 04-Mar-2010
Last visit: 08-Mar-2024
DeMenTed wrote:
Going back to what Tattvamassi said about consciousnes being everything. I have to disagree with this viewpoint. I would say that 'existence'. Would be a better word to describe everything.

Ive been unconscious but i still existed. So if i'm UNconscious then i'm not a part of consciousness but i'am still very much alive. Just my humble opinion.

Just to throw a complicating factor in – you say you’ve been unconscious. How do you know? By definition, it is impossible to experience unconsciousness.

So you are claiming to have been in a state that you can’t possibly experience. Is there a problem with that?

You have NEVER experienced unconsciousness, and you never will.
gibran2 is a fictional character. Any resemblance to anyone living or dead is purely coincidental.
 
DeMenTed
#69 Posted : 5/30/2013 1:07:34 PM

Barry


Posts: 1740
Joined: 10-Jan-2010
Last visit: 05-Mar-2014
Location: Inside the Higgs Boson
You are correct Gibran, i should and meant to add that during my unconscious 'experience' i was unaware. Of course i found out in the hospital later that i was unconscious and oblivious to external stimuli. I was still alive though Smile my being experienced unconsciousness but my mind didn't if that makes sense
 
Amygdala
#70 Posted : 5/30/2013 1:51:23 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 158
Joined: 24-Nov-2012
Last visit: 19-Jun-2016
Location: USA
gibran2 wrote:

Also, I don’t believe there is such a thing as human consciousness. There is consciousness, and it can express itself -- reveal itself to itself – via a human organism, but consciousness expressing itself as a human is not the same thing as human consciousness.


I've often had similar thoughts to this. I like to look in nature, particularly at complicated systems that arise via interactions between many different components and have tremendous difficulty not seeing some sort of 'intelligence' or consciousness imbued within it. For example, in the Amazon, there is a parasite that infects ant colonies when their populations swell beyond their habitual borders. This parasite causes an infected ant to go bananas, and climb to the highest point it can find above all the other ants until this parasite grows an appendage out of its head that explodes and infects the remainder of that portion of the colony. This process that is so much more than the ants or parasites themselves could ever understand keeps that ecosystem in balance. There is footage of this in the Planet Earth documentaries.

Now, sure some people may say that these circumstances are complex patterns that have evolved over a long period of time and are devoid of any intention or intelligence that we know of. A sort of miraculous natural selection. I would lean towards believing that these patterns we can observe only get more and more complex the further you zoom your camera in or out and operate in ways that is indistinguishable to me from an intelligence that does not [b]govern natrue from outside of it/b], rather it thinks and expresses itself within the very natural world that it is affecting.
There isn't someone on the outside thinking about the wind, the wind itself is the thought.
“What goes on inside is just too fast and huge and all interconnected for words to do more than barely sketch the outlines of at most one tiny little part of it at any given instant.” - David Foster Wallace
 
zapped17
#71 Posted : 7/12/2013 4:15:07 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 88
Joined: 23-May-2012
Last visit: 08-Jul-2019
Location: California
[I'll probably soon turn some of what I say below into its own separate thread...}

Anyone ever read David Chalmers' work? Thomas Nagel? Galen Strawson? Or David Skrbina's "MInd That Abides: Panpsychism in the New Millenium"? ( a collection of essays by several relatively "young/new" philosophers in faculty positions throughout mainstream academia).

An adequate philosophical (i.e., analytical philosophy, which is a form of "scientific" philosophy that dominates contemporary western society) understanding of many recent dialectics on the consciousness problem would GREATLY inform and enrich the discussions on this thread. Arguments over "the primacy" of mind or matter like this will continue to go nowhere without such a better understanding.

James Kent, as much as I appreciate his work (albeit with disagreements), seems totally ignorant of contemporary mainstream philosophical discussions and arguments in the vicinity of consciousness. Yeah, Penrose's theory and microtubules seems like bullshit and no one really buys it - but so too is Kent's entire misrepresentation of "consciousness" utter BULLSHIT. The very fact that we have subjective consciousness (e.g., awareness of pain, tastes, smells, etc) from a first person perspective, but only can empirically observe the neurons of another agent without every having to postulate something like consciousness from a third person perspective, underpins some of the classic arguments in modern philosophy FOR why consciousness should be considered ontologically fundamental and irreducible! Kent gets the philosophical dialectic ENTIRELY backwards.

Kent does not know his ass from his elbow when it comes to consciousness and neuroscience, as is true for many mainstream scientists. His article posted above has much to do with neuroscience, and nothing to do with consciousness. As I said above, Kent gets the dialectic backwards. His argument begs all the questions.

When you crack open a person's skull, what do you get? Neurons, chemistry, atoms, and all that shit. You'll never find "sensation of pain", or "experience of red". However, when we introspect from a first person perspective, the latter consciousness experiences is exactly what we find. Physical accounts explain at most structure and dynamics/functions (e.g., the functions of the brain). --> Explaining structure and function does not suffice to explain consciousness (our first person experiences). Another classic argument (briefly): Imagine - a color blind neuroscientist, who knows everything there is to know about physics, optics, and the neurobiology of vision, including the genetic reasons for why he/she is in fact color blind. From all the structural and functional facts about the brain he/she has at her disposal, can she deduce experience of/what it is like to see red? Nope.

Arguments like those and others (of course they are presented succinctly above without much elaboration) at least establish that consciousness is epistemologically distinct from structure and dynamics that physical science gives us. There are thus principled reasons for why neuroscience can only ever give us correlations between neural states and states of consciousness. Mere correlation is certainly not reductive explanation. And further, correlation is not causation, although the brain may "cause" conscious states to emerge somehow, even if consciousness is indeed ontologically distinct.

Frankly, I'm fed up with these confused, ignorant, misinformed, discussions of mind/consciousness/neuroscience/physics, such as Kent's paper here. Read the attachments below - starting with "Nature" - if you wanna get a feel for the field of "the philosophy of the mind".

Lastly: My two cents on the related "primacy" debate (VERY briefly):

Panpsychism or Neutral Monism, in one or another of its many guises, is experiencing somewhat of a revival in western analytic philosophy, endorsed by many mainstream "target-faculty" philosophers in academia. Most modern panpsychist or neutral monist theories integrate mind and matter in a very elegant fashion. Often, consciousness or proto-consciousness is argued to be irreducible (note: not necessarily primary to matter) and taken to inhere in all forms of matter at some level of the universe (for example, a "rock" doesn't have a mind. Rather, there are subsystems at some postulated fundamental level of the universe - this is where theories diverge - that have the property of a precursor consciousness. When these properties combine in appropriate ways - say, as in a brain, that fundamental proto-consciousness is expressed in different, complex ways). Often, consciousness and matter are either taken to be "two sides of the same coin", or are both fundamental properties of the universe in there own right.

Thus, one does not necessarily have to argue about the primacy of one or the other. Like mass, charge, space, time, whatever, were properties of the universe at the universe's inception, so too was the property of (proto)consciousness. Both consciousnesss and matter co-evolved along side one another, as fundamental universal properties. The ontology of the physical universe is simply expanded at its base to include consciousness - once any one of the many analytic arguments for the ontological irreducibility of consciousness is accepted. Theorists flesh these ideas out in myriad ways.

I encourage anyone who is truly serious about understanding the metaphysics of consciousness to read the attached articles, and pick up a copy of Skrbina's book. These resources detail how the problems associated with consciousness are being approached in academia today. (totally "sans" people like James Kent)

[Also note: A recent survey on Phil-papers.com of "target faculty" philosophers in academia the world over on showed that 27% endorsed some sort of irreducible ontology (NOT necessarily"primacy"Pleased of consciousness - as opposed to physicalism -, while 16% chose "other".]

 
universecannon
#72 Posted : 7/12/2013 5:57:50 PM



Moderator | Skills: harmalas, melatonin, trip advice, lucid dreaming

Posts: 5257
Joined: 29-Jul-2009
Last visit: 24-Aug-2024
Location: 🌊
weird, i was just writing a reply to your other post zapped17, but it looks like it disappeared



<Ringworm>hehehe, it's all fun and games till someone loses an "I"
 
zapped17
#73 Posted : 7/12/2013 6:00:35 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 88
Joined: 23-May-2012
Last visit: 08-Jul-2019
Location: California
universecannon wrote:
weird, i was just writing a reply to your other post zapped17, but it looks like it disappeared


Yeah, that was my bad... It's included in my prior, lengthy response. I get very neurotic about how i want to present my thoughts, and it often results in some editing Embarrased

But i had agreed whole heartedly with what you said Big grin You should read my above post.
 
universecannon
#74 Posted : 7/12/2013 6:01:57 PM



Moderator | Skills: harmalas, melatonin, trip advice, lucid dreaming

Posts: 5257
Joined: 29-Jul-2009
Last visit: 24-Aug-2024
Location: 🌊
heheh, no worries :]



<Ringworm>hehehe, it's all fun and games till someone loses an "I"
 
tryptographer
#75 Posted : 7/18/2013 6:14:03 PM

tryptamine photographer


Posts: 760
Joined: 01-Jul-2008
Last visit: 14-Jan-2025
I won't quote your whole post Zapped17 but you hit the nail on the head!

The irony is that although Kent is bashing Penrose, they both belong to the reductionist school that tries to explain consciousness as being somehow generated by neural activity. Penrose just comes up with a (indeed bullshit) theory about the 'how'.

Also, they are ignoring one of the most ground breaking discoveries in quantum mechanics: the role of the observer! Without a conscious observer, there is only a vague cloud of probability, nothing 'real'... in other words: when nobody is looking, anything could be there.
 
«PREV234
 
Users browsing this forum
Guest (12)

DMT-Nexus theme created by The Traveler
This page was generated in 0.052 seconds.