nature's non-lethal weapon.

i am reminded how one of the users (forgive my poor memory i forgot your name) was talking about using salvinorin for self-defence purposes, iirc.

i still don't know how that would affect critters with less sophisticated nervous systems..

I personally wish to temporarily settle on the above hypothesis, unless new evidence is observed. The effects of any substance that crosses the blood brain barrier, are different for each species that carry different functional and neurochemical organisation. Nicotine paralyses and kills insects, but we enjoy it thoroughly. Similarly, we enjoy DMT's effects, but for a different species with the capacity to receive the substance in their CNS, it could show completely different effects. It is unlikely that only plants and humans are some sort of "special" beings, amongst the billions and billions of species. We may just like to think so, because the plants benefit us in some way.

It is not about ethnicity, it is about culture...

http://rutube.ru/tracks/4317624.html

Watch this... can ever conceive that the sort of thing they are doing here as "science", could ever be carried out in the west? no fucking way! too much closed minded, prejudice, and lack of willingness to explore. (look foolish) etc

Have you seen the film "Men who stare at goats"? The reason the Americans started this program is because they saw the Russians were kicking their butt with their remote viewing program. That is advanced. The American version was a joke compared to what the Russians were doing. (but they DID kill a goat) and the movie makes it all look foolish...

Russian scientists quite often shit on western scientists because they have no prejudice when it comes to the metaphysical. they are open minded. The western cultural trait of being closed minded is demonstrated in this thread!

There is heaps of technology they have that works, that they use, that we do not largely know about in the west... the SCENAR is but one example.

http://www.scenartherapies.com/



I was referring to your avatar. Some acacia phyllodes (they happen to be the one's that have DMT in them!) have anastomisation, which looks like a neural network and also a computer chip. (you made the similarity known in your avatar)

OK, let's close this issue here, as your bad mouthing is distasteful and as there is no real dichotomy between western and russian science. Science is science and when done correctly it's superb regardless of location.

Well said. The scientific principle is the same worldwide.



Thanks for your kind and unprejudiced comments.



Your personal views of the "prejudiced" west, are very prejudiced.

Peace.

Internet bickering only serves to make fools of those taking part.

Anyways... I was thinking that whilst it maybe true that dmt has defensive properties for plants I doubt that it is true for animals. By the time a predator found the dmt in my body I hope I would have long since expired.

Lets just imagine for a moment, if there were such a thing as a spirit molecule what properties must it possess? One would imagine that it would have to be of simple construction so as to be made easily. Complex molecules would require a greater biological expenditure and more genetic code to construct leaving less evolved or less complex creatures essentially with no spirit.

One would also imagine that this molecule, should it exist, would be found in the nervous system so that any incoming information maybe interpreted. Whilst it is true that plants do not have any perceivable nervous system, if they did one would expect to find it it the most active areas of the plant, perhaps the leaves and roots. It could be argued that we just do not understand plants very well and are culture bound to look for the wrong thing. Perhaps the interactions of some secondary compounds within the plant act in some way like a nervous system.

Finally, all organisms must be able to produce this molecule. Whilst it maybe true that we have not found dmt in every living thing, the precursors to its construction are there in abundance.

This is pure conjecture, by no means gospel truth. However I feel that the truth of the matter is that we don't know very much about the most of what is around us, least of all dmt. Many people think that modern science has cracked the nature of reality and all that is left is to fill the blanks, this is most untrue.

They do have a nervous system. And many show the highest concentrations of certain alkaloids in stem bark, not necessarily roots or leaves. (5-Meo-DMT in stem bark, and nothing else relevant*)


Not true for all. Many don't.


The people who think that, are probably not scientists or science-savvy. If they were, they would be aware of how little we truly "know".

I am not trying to scrutinise every aspect of your theory, I am only offering feedback on certain points. I would also encourage you to look into other researchers who conducted DMT research, as Strassman is only one person, and he extensively analysed his theory on DMT. It may be useful to rewind to what we truly know of DMT, and critically proceed in constructing your own theory (should you wish to). It may prove to be quite a pleasant endeavour. Always keeping in mind however, that all are just speculations left to the imagination of everyone.

* Trout, K. & Friends. 2007. Some Simple Tryptamines. Second edition. Mydriatic Productions, USA.

EDIT: Thanks Cyb, good point!

It may help the lay peeps if you could hyperlink some sources for these assertions...
(interesting thread all round... )

Edit:

I appreciate the feedback, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to source all that I have written. I am clearly among intellectual giants, but this is just a little fun for me. I did begin my original post by saying that I was ill informed.

I enjoy the mystery around dmt. I have bought and stole several books surrounding the subject and perhaps at a later date I will be able to continue with better information.

The basic point is this. In western science there is a prejudice against that which is considered "paranormal". Such prejudices are not as entrenched in Russian and Asian sciences, making them more liable to explore the so-called "metaphysical".

Examples of this prejudice you can find in the book "The Secrete Life of Plants". Good science (like that of Sir Jagadis Chunder Bose who was knighted for his work) has demonstrated that plants are sentient. It is just that western science is not open to considering the results seriously and the book is considered to represent pseudo-science. (clear prejudice)

http://www.bostonglobe.c...uj5P2RvV6rUuK/story.html

You can even see that prejudice in this article.

Science is like a religion and if orthodoxy says that there is no nervous system - well, that is the closed mindedness I am talking of. Many celebrate closed mindedness and call it "skepticism" - when a true skeptic is simply doubtful and open minded!

Interestingly, many acacias actually do have nerves in their phyllodes, that is literally the botanical expression that is used. Is this a nervous system? If someone proved that Acacias had a nervous system, and that DMT was a neurotransmitter (and DMT IS a neurotransmitter) in that nervous system - what do you think the reaction would be?

This is always fun! I don't think there is anyone who doesn't enjoy the mystery behind it! Discussing concepts politely, however "ill" or "well" informed (with arguments, but without gross generalisations and borderline polarisation), is the best aspect of this forum imo.

You may find Shulgin's personal views on psychedelics interesting at least. I highly recommend his work. Just for your viewing pleasure, a great documentary released in 2010.

Didn't I just tell you not to further discuss this topic in this thread? Can you read?

If you think this issue has merit, please make a thread about it. I'd be glad to contribute my opinions on this issue which, if presented here, would just derail the current discussion.

It is highly unlikely that DMT is just present as a defence mechanism in plants. This has already been proven wrong in the case of bufotenine. Of course that is probably one of the roles it plays.

Bufotenine has been found in the leaves of mandarin oranges and plays an imoportant role in the egg laying behaviour of swallowtail butterflies who feed on the leaves. Becasue of this one case we can no longer assume that psychedelic alkaloids only exist in plants as a defence mechanism..reguardless of why a plant started to bio-synth them in the first place, these plants are imbedded within a dynamic and co-evoloving eco-system and so it makes sense there are going to be many many cross over factors invovled when it comes to the role such chemicals play within a larger ecosystem.

In reference to DMT controlling the flow of ether or w/e..well according to the classical ideas of ether sciences the ether is always present and what gives rise to all the other fundamental forces in the universe..even if you want to call the higgs field the "new ether" it is still what is speculated to give rise to things like electromagnetism and gravity..the "ether" would be responsible for something like DMT even existing so I dont think a lack of DMT can be linked to a lack of ether.

Like it. Following jamie's utilisation of the black swan paradigm, with which I agree entirely, alkaloids in plants are not to be considered "psychedelic" if there is even one organism that is incapable of somehow accomodating those alkaloids in their respective nervous system.

These alkaloids are only psychedelic to us, and any other species whose system can provide an active CNS function for them. To plants it could be anything, to insects that interact with them, again, anything (just like the case with the butterflies).

But how has bufotenin's role in plant defense has been disproved? I'd be glad to see the literature. I assert that if it is present in toad's venom then it must be there to be toxic for something, does that make sense so far?

i think you are refering to the bufotoxin venom of the bufo alvarius toad, which is a more complex mixture than just bufotenin. here's what wikipedia says :

*As the cane toad excretes bufotenin in small amounts, and other toxins in relatively large quantities, toad licking could result in serious illness or death.

also this,

*The exact composition varies greatly with the specific source of the toxin. It can contain: 5-MeO-DMT, bufagins, bufotalin, bufotenine, bufothionine, epinephrine, norepinephrine, and serotonin. The term bufotoxin can also be used specifically to describe the conjugate of a bufagin with suberylargine.[2]


i like how jamie thinks on this one. plants are really adapting fast, and i also believe they use these chemicals for many different purposes, depending very much on the enviroment they are in.

^^^ yep.

Most likely trying to attribute one central or exclusive role to a biomolecule only makes sense if we are focusing exclusively in one aspect of the life of the organism producing it. If we think about interspecific relationships, things like defense, mimicry or competition will appear. But valuable tools are often used in every conceivable way, specially if you consider the complex biosynthesis pathways, and the fact this biosynthesis runs along with the whole metabolism of the plant.

Just look at what Ambivalent mentioned regarding toad toxins. You have 5HT, 5-HO-DMT, and 5-MeO-DMT, along with their precursors. What's just a byproduct, what's a metabolite, what's the true metabolic objective, and what's an inert step along the way? Most likely none of them, they are all links in a chain - or better yet, a web.

Forget about teleology, purpose is overrated. We find a molecule fulfilling an important role according to what we know, and we often assume that must be the very reason for its existence, we assume there has to be a master plan and the plant "knows" exactly why it's producing that precise molecule. As if we knew why, how and when to synthesize dopamine in our bodies.

There's lots of increasing evidence about multiple functions of monoamines in plants, besides any defensive roles. And I'm quoting this from a paper published in 1997 (!)



This doesn't even consider 5-HT derivatives, and the paper only discusses processes we know reasonably. To me it's quite obvious that, as Ambivalent pointed out, the workings of tryptamines in plants will be many, and escaping our common understanding of "final purpose".

The mystery remains. Why do some Acacias, ESPECIALLY, those that are micro-endemic, (and why is a plant even micro-endemic at all? another mystery that baffles botanists) contain DMT in the largest quantities.

why do some Acacias only create DMT seasonally, at certain times of year? This strongly suggests that the DMT is not strictly required by the plant for physical functioning.

So if DMT is an optional alkaloid, this would imply that the plant utilises the alkaloid/neurotransmitter as a function of its sentience, not in regards to its basic or necessary biological functioning.

Besides, we do not even know the purpose of plants, (beyond biological functioning) ; it appears to me they are transmitting some sort of metaphysical information.

“If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration.”

― Nikola Tesla

“The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence.”

― Nikola Tesla

Chemistry of Acacia's from South Texas

Acacia species in south Texas contain numerous chemical compounds, many of which have negative effects on animal performance.

Alkaloids, phenolic amines, phytoestrogens, and tannis have been identified in south Texas acacias.

Many of the acacias of south Texas are considered to be valuable forage for deer and domestic livestock. It is known, however, that at least one species, guajillo (Acacia berlandieri) will produce a paralytic condition in sheep and goats called "guajillo wobbles." As part of a larger study investigating the chemistry of south Texas range plants, we determined the chemical composition of the leaves of several south Texas acacias.

Most woody plants contain a variety of chemical compounds a number of which have the advantage to the plant of being toxic to animals that consume them. Many of these defensive compounds are nitrogen-based, though there also are a significant number of nonnitrogenous toxic compounds. Additionally, plants produce compounds which may be repellent or, as in the case of tannins, lower the nutritional value of the plant. Early research, using paper and thin-layer chromatographic techniques, identified several phenolic amines in A. berlandieri, including n-methyl-phenethylamine (NMP), tyramine, nmethyltyramine and hordenine.

The alkaloid fractions (those extractable with 10% HCL) of A. berlandieri and A. rigidula contained a complex mixture of alkaloids including nicotine, nornicotine, anhalamine, mescaline, and 3,4,5-trihydroxy-phenethylamine (demethylated mescaline).

The phenolic amines, such as tyramine, hordenine and N-methyl-B-phenethylamine are powerful activators of the sympathetic nervous system causing the release of cortisol and adrenocorticotropic hormone. In addition to the alkaloids, the plants were also found to contain intricate mixtures of tannins and flavenoids including catechin, fisetin and quercetin.

While tannins and their antinutritional effects have been the subject of much research in recent years, little attention has been paid to the negative effects of consumption of other secondary compounds that are not acutely toxic. However, recent research has shown the negative effects on fertility of consumption of amine-containing forage. Consumption of guajillo and blackbrush was shown to reduce fertility in male goats, and to reduce their ability to handle stressful situations such as transportation.

Table 1. Major Chemical Compounds in South Texas Acacias :

Amines and Alkaloids:

phenethylamine
N,N-dimethylphenethylamine
N,N-dimethyl-"-methylphenethylamine
p-hydroxyamphetamine
tyramine
3-5-dimethoxytyramine
3,4-dimethoxy-5-hydroxy-$-phenethylamine
hordenine
N,N-dimethyldopamine
tryptamine
N,N-dimethyltryptamine
N-methylmescaline
nicotine
anhalamine
peyophorine
nortryptyline
3-"-cumyl-1,3,4-oxadiazolidine-2,5-dione
p-hydroxypipecolamide
4-methyl-2-pyridinamine

N-methylphenethylamine
amphetamine
methamphetamine
p-methoxyamphetamine
N-methyltyramine
candicine
dopamine
N-methyldopamine
3-methoxytyramine
N-methyltryptamine
mescaline
trichocereine
nornicotine
anahalidine
mimosine (methyl ester)
musk ambrette
pipecolamide
1,4-benzezediamine


Phytoestrogens:

octylphenol \
aristolone
(Z)-9-octadecenoic acid
(Z,Z,Z)-9,12,15-octadecatrienoic acid
3b-acetoxy-17-methyl-5a-18-abeoandrost-13-ene

nonylphenol
3b-cholest-5-en-3-ol
(Z,Z)-9,12,-octadecanoic acid

FULL VERSION: http://uvalde.tamu.edu/pdf/chemtdaf.pdf

Last but not least some more on toxicology:

Toxic amines and alkaloids from acacia rigidula

Acacia rigidula Benth., blackbrush, is a shrub found growing on rocky ridges in west and southwest Texas and northern Mexico. Consumption of blackbrush and a related species guajillo, Acacia berlandieri Benth., has been associated with a locomotor ataxia known as "limber leg".

A. rigidula has been shown to contain appreciable levels of toxic alkaloids. Sheep and goats grazing on a related species, Acacia berlandieri Benth., guajillo, during periods of drought in the Rio Grande Plains of Texas have developed a locomotor ataxia referred to as "guajillo wobbles" or "limber leg" [2]. Previous analysis of blackbrush had detected and identifed four amines, N-methyl-b-phenethylamine (NMPEA), tyramine, N-methyltyramine, and hordenine, which were also found in guajillo [3].

As a result of this study, an intensive chemical analysis of A. rigidula Benth. was undertaken to identify the amines and alkaloids present in the leaves and stems that would comprise browse material.

Forty-four amines and alkaloids, including the four previously encountered amines, N-methyl-b-phenethylamine, tyramine, N-methyltyramine, and hordenine, were identifed by GC-MS.

The majority of the isolated alkaloids, 18 of the 33 identifed, were related to the parent compound b-phenethylamine. These compounds generally varied in the degree of N-methylation, x-methylation (amphetamine family), and in oxygenation of the aromatic ring (tyramine, dopamine, and mescaline families). The 2-cyclohexylethylamine and the N-cyclohexylethyl-N-methylamine are the saturated analogs of the phenethylamine and NMPEA respectively. Tryptamine, N-methyltryptamine, and N,N-dimethyltryptamine were also isolated from blackbrush.

Other noteworthy alkaloids found in blackbrush include nicotine, nornicotine, and four tetrahydroisoquinoline alkaloids, anhalamine, anhalidine, anhalonidine, and peyophorine. The amides of the amino acids pipecolic acid and p-hydroxypipecolic acid were also detected.

As was previously found with NMPEA the foliage collected in the autumn contained higher quantities of amines and alkaloids [10]. There was also a distinct increase in the number and quantity of methylated analogs present (Table 1).

Several as yet unidentifed amine-containing compounds have been detected but have not yet been identifed. It is also probable that several biosynthetic precursors are present in the mixture but as yet are unresolved and are below the threshold of GC-MS detection.

Phenolic amines, as a group, impact the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis [11]. The consequent release of ACTH and cortisol results in symphathomimetic action. The number of phenolic amines reported in Table 1 and their concentrations in the plant indicate a substantial toxic load to animals consuming blackbrush. The toxicity of nicotine and nornicotine has been well established [12], as has the psychoactivity of mescaline and its derivatives. None of the compounds identifed appear to have been implicated in locomotor ataxia. However the presence of the amphetamines suggests the possibility for a reduction of monoamine oxidase activity [13]. FULL VERSION: http://www.erowid.org/ar.../rhodiu...a.rigidula.pdf