I would hate to advocate anyone using a potentially addictive substance, but perhaps small doses of tramadol or kratom could be helpful? From my understanding both of these things can be very helpful with pain, but they are less addictive and have a lower potential for abuse than opiates. Again I don't want to advocate either of these substances, but as long as they are strictly being used for pain management and not being abused I think the risks would be relatively low. Perhaps in light of your history with opiates, if you did decide to try one of these treatments you could have a trustworthy friend or family member in charge of regulating your dose?

Hi guys thank you endlessness for starting this thread , first of all I'd like I say I thought I'd never publicly admit to this dreaded desease as once bitten twice shy as when I've told my story in the past ( shakes head ) worst mistake ever !!
Here it comes :- ........no excuses but it is a desease !!!
In my family there is 4 boys 1 girl 2 of my brothers and I were on heroin in late 80s early 90s and we all went to the methadone program , 21 years later hear I sit still on it and I think only now I found this site I'm starting to recover I don't no why but this community has given me untold strength ! I'm spiritually ready and it's through positive thinking , and finally feeling part of a cummunity and once again and having self worth !!
And I put once having no self belonging or self worth is down to the private methadone mantanince program in Australia ( public worse )is a whole that just keeps going deeper and deeper and as you go down it grabs you tighter and tighter bound never to let go ,,
You have no freedom you liquid handcuffed to the chemist or clinic , it takes quite a lot of the desposable income some cheaper then other but can cost up to $95 a week this is the private program so it's not free like so many ppl think !!
i cant give advice to kick it yet but I can give advice to get on the right road and that is to reconnect with normal ppl be part of a community whethe it be the nexus or another forum or even NA but say good bye to the old you never look back but take you're time reducing the doses so not to relapse !!
GOOD LUCK TAKE CARE & just do it !!

I definitely don't buy into the notion that addiction is a "disease" in the traditional sense, but that's just my opinion. You stick with whatever works for you.

Alcoholism is a disease as well as opiot addiction it's a proven point that that you're likely to have greater chance of having an addiction as it heredatory !Sorry Entheogenerator but didn't you just say (sometimes these things are hereditary)

SORRY ENTHEOGENERATOR ,,

I didn't read properly it was gone and back ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I thought it said (gone and back wrote ) meaning you had edited you're post haha ..........tired eyes on my part sorry mate

No, that was me. And I stand by my belief. Do you have any sources to evidence your claim that "it's a proven point" and "it's hereditary"? Because I have read quite a lot on the subject and so far all data I have seen has shown no connection between addiction rates and genetics. AA has been trying to find such evidence for close to 80 years, and they have yet to publish any scientific evidence.

Like I said, believe whatever works for you. But please don't portray opinions as facts unless you have sources to evidence your claim.

EDIT: Even if addiction were hereditary, I don't see how that is in any way relevant to whether or not it is a disease. Brown eyes are hereditary, but I wouldn't consider them to be a disease...

I think the one thing that is obvious from this thread is that there is more than one route to 'recovery'. Due to a quirk in my personal nature, methadone was the only thing that worked for me, it has what has been termed an "opiate on board feeling', meaning that while not high, I still feel like I have opiates in my system- it pins my eyes etc- and for a person like me who spent decades abusing drugs and themselves, that provides a certain level of comfort so that I can free my self to work on the emotional end, where the root lies.

I do think it should be a last resort, not a first option. In the clinic I was attending, I could not believe the amount of teens going there. When I started methadone the first time, in '94, to satisfy court requirements, I was by far the youngest there, at 24 y.o.

The entire treatment industry is crap, its full of for profit companies keeping people sick with a deadly disease, telling them that they will always be that way and can only hope for remission. Treatment kills.



Yes, this is partly what I'm talking about. Most people think that this has been proven, since the 12 step based people make it seem so.I'm sorry but I dont buy into any of their notions of incurability, genetic links, etc. There's far too many factors beyond genetics in the issue, and it seems like there would be SOME proof were it true.

ADDICTION IS NOT A DISEASE! The reasoning that Ive heard behind this is that it mimics one-it affects an organ-the brain, it responds to treatment, etc etc. Are either of those statements true? This line of reasoning is what the industry uses to keep us sick and sell us their methods.

Have you looked into the profits in treatment? Check out CRC corp, allegedly, Mitt Romney has a good portion of stock in it. It is the world's largest treatment provider, they own the methadone clinic I was going to, and are buying them all out across the world. Tell me theres no motivation to keep people sick.


Yer in a good place man. I found this place after DMT found me and took me home for the first time in my life. It was the strength I found thru that very real spiritual experience that has allowed me to do this work. And this community has been there for me ever since. There are some great people, amazing ideas and great work being done here. Welcome, and happy trails brother!

Interesting. That's exactly what I and others I have talked to get from the buprenorphine. But I have also heard of people for whom it was not so effective, and others who have started on methadone and later tapered down and switched to buprenorphine. I would have to say that the two nicest things about buprenorphine over methadone are the 50-70hr half-life (meaning if I stop taking it, I don't start kicking until the third day), and the fact that a person can pick up a month's worth at a time (after they have established trust with their doctor and been clean for a while) without constantly worrying about going to the clinic.


I guess this is really what I meant. I don't think any substance should be completely banned or criminalized, but I do hope that Suboxone will for the most part replace methadone as the go-to maintenance drug for opiate addiction. I think it is already starting to do this to some extent.

Other countries (not USA) are seeing a pretty high rate of success with the absolute last resort option of treating heroin addicts with... well, heroin. They provide 99% pure pharmaceutical-grade heroin, sterile rigs/water/metal cap to cook it in, and a clean and safe place to inject once daily with the supervision of trained medical personnel. Each patient has a set daily dose, and that dose remains constant. Like I said, absolute last resort. But, for obvious reasons, it is an extremely effective method of employing harm reduction for those that have not seen success from other treatments.


You know, I'm all for any treatment that works for someone. But one of my biggest concerns about the 12-step model is that they herald opinions and theories as if they were facts, and they do not self-evaluate periodically in order to make changes where improvement is needed. In fact they pride themselves on the fact that their methods have not changed since the start of AA, almost 80 years ago.

I'm sorry, but that's just not how treatment works, particularly if they consider addiction to be a "disease". The only reason to treat a disease the exact same way it would have been treated 80 years ago is if the treatment works 100% of the time, on 100% of the patients. The 12-step model doesn't even come close to those numbers (IIRC, it has something closer to a 5% success rate). If you had cancer, would you want the same treatment as they would have used 80 years ago? No. The doctor would be charged with malpractice. That's because the medical community is constantly looking for ways to improve and develop treatment methods. If addiction were truly a disease, then why don't 12-step programs treat it like one?

Anyways, that's all I'm going to say on that subject for now. I was considering starting another thread to house the 12-step discussion, so this one doesn't get completely derailed.

That's a good idea,there's so much I wanted to say regarding that but refrained. It's kinda a sore area with me.

Well in that case we are in the same boat brother!

thanks for the kind words Entheogenerator i too am relieved i live in an age that we have bupe. as for the whole hereditary thing i dont believe it however it turned out my grandma has the same lust for opiates that i did. you know something aint right if your smoking fentanyl with grandma thats just not well. her daughter was also an opiate addict although her son my dad was not.still dont believe thogh its a choice not a disease

Yea that doesn't sound like the most healthy grandmother/grandson relationship. I'm glad you've made a change for the better.

I think addiction is a choice to an extent, and then it really becomes more of a compulsion than a choice. So in essence, it is a compulsive behavior which develops due to a series of choices.

Hi guys well I've done a lot if reading since I posted last and I must say I'm bloody wrong ,

This is what i love about the nexus (, it's great to see such a topic that is such a sore point for many ) discussed in a sencible manner ......
My Mother was an alcaholic and from the age of ten or eleven I was dragged to AA meetings and I also think it's out dated and there is so many new school and other up coming ways which I'm so grateful for , and at the AA meeting it was always said addiction was in our DNA but I've learnt through this alchoholism is a different beast all together and that's we're lies the my confusion with the two !!!!!!

But my brother is on the subutex and he says the compared to the methadone it's night and day ,, and the only thing about swapping the two treatments is you're methadone dose has to dropped from a dose that works for you to around 20mg which can lead to withdrawal's which is the price of admission !! But nowdays there's a treatment for everyone , and if you're still on the junk alls I can say is get in to treatment today JUST DO IT !! TODAY IS THE DAY !!

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here, so forgive me if I'm misunderstanding. But alcoholism is no more a disease than any other addiction, despite the fact that Alcoholics Anonymous relentlessly preaches that it is. Addiction is addiction, regardless of the substance.

Obviously there are some differences depending on what substance a person is addicted to. One of which for alcohol is that it is legal and therefore we are literally surrounded by it. I imagine if there was a heroin store on every other block and if every restaurant I went to served heroin, getting clean would have had an additional dimension of difficulty. Heroin addiction has it's own unique characteristics that create added dimensions of difficulty as well. But for the most part as far as treatment, recovery, and the nature of addiction go; addiction is addiction regardless of the substance one is dependent on.

Okay, here's my personal experience that I can use as a vantage point regarding addiction and genetics.

My father was a serious alcoholic. I never saw him to my knowledge drunk tho. Although now looking back it does explain some bizarre behavior, especially one time when my mother was out of state leaving my father and I in the house. We got into a physical altercation that I didn't understand the cause of-he was pissed drunk. I literally used to think he naturally smelled like scotch. I knew he drank daily,a glass of scotch after dinner. But unbeknownst to anyone, after dinner, when he retired to the living room to read the paper, he had the fifth with him and killed one, every night. Then went to bed, got up, went to his job as a stockbroker and started all over again. My mother drank a glass of scotch after dinner a well. but that's it.

I have two brothers and a sister, my sister being the oldest at 12 years my senior, my two brothers 10 and 8 years older than I. They grew up in the 70's, in high school then and they all experimented with drugs. I know my sister had some issues, but I was young and don't really remember, and they didn't become life long. My two brothers never messed with anything harder than pot, and a couple experiences that were negative with cocaine.

Me, in the other hand... Week by the time I 17, I was smoking a grab if freebase cocaine a night, ecstasy, heroin, tons of weed, and acid,etc. I was a poly drug addict adds I knew it. Heroin became my thing after being the victim of a serious violent crime that I survived by grace and nothing else. It killed the ptsd symptoms very well, and then I began relying on it to ameliorate any kind off pain. It is a struggle to this day for me, while my father had been sober for over 15 years and none of my siblings have issues.

What I'm saying is that you'd be hard pressed to find a family with no addiction issues. If one is exposed to the using behavior of family, the chances off that person using become much greater. I'm curious if the above statement regarding smoking fent with his grandmother refers to actual events, and if so, how the circumstance developed. There's people at the'done clinic I went to three generations deep, grandmother, mother, and daughter all coming in together. And with a baby in the youngest one's sense. But it's all out in the open in these families, the grandmother isn't hiding in the living room, pretending to read the paper as she nods off.

It's environment, combined with other social factors and probably some genetic component. But I know that there is an innate human instinct to want to change our consciousness. I've begun to wonder if that instinct has something to do with using "plant teachers" as a catalyst for the evolution of human consciousness that ha become a little,uh, it of whack.

Idk, really don't, and I don't want to sound like I think I do. But I have dune ideas surrounding this whole thing that are borne from LOTS of personal research.

We all know of nature and nurture. There are many factors that differentiate me from my brothers and sister, but we have the same genetics,, and I'm the only addict. We all look alike, call it the E#### curse, you can't mistake one off our clan, so what's up with that? The differentiating factors, like the times we grew up in, the relationship I had with my parents as upped to them etc are far more responsible for my addiction than our similarities, like our genes.

This topic is timely for me.

I have a long history of on/off addictions, the most serious and consequential being to heroin, which I quit 8 years ago, and have not touched since. I was initially substance free for 3-4 years, and gradually re-introduced cannabis and psychedelics, and more detrimentally, alcohol. I have since quit smoking cannabis as of a month ago, and my alcohol consumption has gotten out of control. It happened insidiously - the consequences are nothing like heroin, in fact other than a general sense of ill-being, I haven't had any real external consequences at all. It still feels like I am back in that old cage.

Here is my dilemma. I would love to be able to moderate alcohol, this may or may not be a possibility. I absolutely would not like to quit using psychedelics - I only take them every other month or so, and they don't hurt me the way that cannabis and alcohol and nicotine have been hurting me lately.

When I got off heroin, I was in AA for a while, mostly because I had nowhere else to go. I really really really do not like the mentality of 12 step programs. I do not want to continue drinking, and I do not want to go back to that program. Is there a happy medium? I thought I found it - but drinking just got gradually worse. I have done nothing outlandish - no DUI's, no aggression or irresponsible behavior, other than overconsumption.

Not sure what to do. I am at a catharsis moment, and even though it is not nearly as awful as my last heroin overdose (4 nights in a medical ICU, intubated, charcoal, etc) I have a ridiculous tolerance, and I know that I am doing gradual damage to my liver. My LFT's are not elevated yet, but its a matter of time if this continues.

Lost, scared and confused.

How do you use alcohol? Do you use it daily? Just after work? When you have a first drink do find it difficult not to have another untill you go to bed? Are you a binge drinker?
How does it affect you mentally when you drink? How does it affect you mentally when you decide not to drink? Do you like being drunk or do you just like a little snifter to take away the stresses of the day/work?

I work nights, and usually have a few drinks when I get off work to help alleviate stress. I have a very stressful job - I watch people die weekly -- but thats not an excuse. It is hard to unwind without a drink.

Lately, it has been daily, and I can drink 3-4 glasses of bourbon in a sitting. I rarely get drunk. My tolerance is just high.

No matter the amount, I don't like the way this feels. I need to make a change. I don't have the same 'brightness' that I used to.. i feel dulled and even though the consequences aren't what they were on harder drugs, they are enough.

I think I need 30 days of abstinence, and possibly work back in reasonable amounts after that. If I can't work back in reasonable amounts, I need total abstinence.

I have a greater fear of not being able to use psychedelics, which have been nothing but helpful to me. The messages I have gotten on my last few trips have revolved around a life out of balance. I want balance so much.

I think that it is a damned good excuse. When you say that it"s not an excuse it sounds to me like you think that you are doing something wrong. We are made to feel guilty for our self medication. If you can stop after 3 glasses i think that your problem is totally managable.

I like to have a couple or three glasses to unwind after work and goddamnit i love it! Sometimes my supply runs out and i become quite restless as though i don"t really know what to do with myself. But you do get used to it.

Maybe go onto a beverage that is less potent. Have a couple of glasses of wine or beer instead. That way you can also carry on the habit of the baby dummy action of putting the glass to the mouth.

Thank you for your response… i am perhaps overreacting a bit.

New goal, to conform to the NIAA's recommendations:

"Low risk drinking, “according to the NIAAA, for men, is no more than four drinks in one day, and no more than 14 drinks in a week.” For women, he says, “it’s no more than three drinks in any day and no more than seven drinks in any week, and for both to have at least two alcohol free days per week”

Having a background of opiate addiction, this recent behavior scared me a bit. I will try to roll it back, and see what happens.

Thanks again for your kind words.