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Opinions on "ayahuascahealings" anyone? Options
 
T.Harper
#41 Posted : 12/15/2015 3:07:39 AM

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http://www.bialabate.net...a-native-american-church

Quote:
The Ayahuasca Healing Retreats (also known as Ayahuasca USA) are apparently sincere in their belief that they have a legal exemption to use ayahuasca. Their belief in that legality claim comes from their affiliation with the Oklevueha Native American Church (ONAC).

Oklevueha (pronounced OK-le-va) Native American Church openly and explicitly claims that their members have the legal right to use any plant-based sacrament — peyote, cannabis, ayahuasca, or any other plant-based entheogen. And they advertise that anyone who buys a membership card from them gains that legal right. Membership cards can be purchased online for $200, and (according to ONAC) confer the legal right to use otherwise illegal entheogens.

WHY BEING A MEMBER OF OKLEVUEHA NATIVE AMERICAN CHURCH WILL BENEFIT YOU…It Provides You A Means To Receive Your Constitutional Rights In Attending Earth Based Indigenous American Native Spiritually Empowering and Healing Ceremonies – especially Native American Church indigenous ceremonies that involve sacraments (peyote, cannabis, ayahuasca, etc) that are otherwise illegal for Non-Members to partake and or be in possession of.

The right to start an ONAC chapter and serve sacraments is reported by different sources at $2500 or $7000. (Selling religion is deeply offensive to Native Americans, and this is only one of the reasons that ONAC and its imitators are disavowed by mainstream branches of the Native American Church.)

On its web page ONAC has posted several congressional acts and court opinions, in order to make its claim to legality look legitimate — but it misrepresents the content of these documents:

It cites the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA), which makes it possible to sue for religious freedom exemptions to generally applicable laws – but which certainly does not automatically make all entheogenic sacraments legal.

It cites the American Indian Religious Freedom Act (AIRFA), which was amended in 1994 to grant the use to use peyote in a religious context to American Indian people – but which says nothing about any other sacrament.

It cites the Supreme Court UDV decision, Gonzales v. O Centro Espirita Beneficiente União do Vegetal, in which the Uniao do Vegetal won the legal right to use their sacrament Hoasca — but which applies to no other group but the UDV and to no other sacrament but ayahuasca.

It cites the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act of 2000, a law which deals with zoning issues around churches and with religious rights of prisoners — but which says nothing about entheogenic sacraments at all.

It cites United States vs Boyll, the 1991 case that was the first victory for non-Indian right to use peyote in New Mexico — but that has no mention of any other entheogenic sacrament.

Court opinions are long and difficult reading, and most people would probably just take ONAC’s word for it on what they say – but they shouldn’t. In actual fact, most of the laws and court decisions that ONAC cites establish precedents or foundations for potential actions to try to expand entheogenic religious rights, but until someone actually goes through the court system (either by taking the offense and suing the government, as the UDV and Santo Daime did, or by using a RFRA-based defense against prosecution) and wins, these cases represent no more than a precedent on which future cases may be based.

However, ONAC did have one landmark victory for entheogenic religious rights.

In 1994, Congress passed an amendment to the 1978 American Indian Religious Freedom Act that legalized peyote consumption in a religious context to all American Indian people. However, beyond the requirement that states cannot penalize “the use, possession, or transportation of peyote by an Indian who uses peyote in a traditional manner for bona fide ceremonial purposes in connection with the practice of a traditional Indian religion,” the states can decide to restrict or regulate peyote (or any other plant or drug they choose). Beyond that minimum requirement, state laws vary. Oregon and Arizona allow anyone with sincere religious intent to consume peyote; Colorado, Minnesota, Nevada and New Mexico allow anyone to take it with a bona fide religious organization (not necessarily NAC); Iowa, Oklahoma, South Dakota, and Wisconsin allow anyone to take it within an NAC ceremony; Kansas allows only NAC members to take it within an NAC ceremony only; Idaho allows it only for people of Native descent within an NAC ceremony held on a reservation; Wyoming allows it only for NAC members but not necessarily within an NAC ceremony; Texas allows it only for people who are both NAC members and of Native descent, but not necessarily within an NAC ceremony.

The state of Utah had specified that peyote consumption was legal only for Native American Church members. In 2000, James “Flaming Eagle” Mooney, the founder/leader of ONAC, was arrested with 12,000 peyote buttons. The state of Utah claimed that only members of federally recognized tribes could use peyote in Utah. In his defense, Mooney argued that legally limiting the right to take peyote to some NAC members (Indians) and not others (non-Indians) violated the Equal Protection Clause – i.e., was racial discrimination. (Mooney says that he is of Seminole descent, but nearly all members of his church are non-Indian.)

In a 2004 decision, the Utah Supreme Court granted him a unanimous victory – but it was neither on grounds of religious freedom or of equal protection. Rather, the court based its decision on plain reading of the Utah law, which simply specified Native American Church members and did not mention race. The court said:

Utah law incorporates a federal regulation exempting from prosecution members of the Native American Church who use peyote in bona fide religious ceremonies. On its face, the federal regulation does not restrict the exemption to members of federally recognized tribes. We therefore rule that the exemption is available to all members of the Native American Church. Any other interpretation is… inconsistent with the plain language of the exemption. [emphasis added]

However, the federal government said the Mooneys and the non-Indian members of their church were still prohibited under federal law from possessing or using peyote. Though they had won a victory over the state level charges, Mooney and his wife were indicted federally in 2005 on peyote-related charges. But those charges were dropped in February 2006, the day after the U.S. Supreme Court announced its decision in the UDV case.

James Mooney said that he felt the charges being dropped had everything to do with the UDV victory in the Supreme Court. And he was undoubtedly right; the potential precedent set by Gonzales v. O Centro Espirita Beneficiente União do Vegetal for the religious rights of non-Indian religious peyote users was big enough to drive a truck through. Had the case been pursued (either by the federal prosecutors or by Mooney taking the initiative to sue the government under RFRA) Mooney, using the UDV case as a precedent, would have had an excellent chance of winning a religious freedom exemption for the use of peyote.

But he didn’t pursue a religious freedom exemption of their own for peyote. The ONAC merely cites the UDV case as though it establishes their rights as a done deal.

The Supreme Court decision in Gonzales v. O Centro Espirita Beneficiente União do Vegetal applies only to the UDV, and only to their sacrament, Hoasca. It does not confer on ONAC or on any other group the legal right to use ayahuasca. Much less does it confer on ONAC a blanket right to use any illegal entheogen it chooses.

Had ONAC actually pursued a RFRA case using the UDV case as a precedent, rather than acting as though the UDV victory automatically applied to them, the ONAC might well have won a religious exemption for peyote. But their chance of winning a blanket legal right to use any and all “earth-based sacraments” would be zero. In fact, under entheogenic religious case law, a church’s use of more than one entheogenic sacrament works against their chances to gain a legal exemption for any of their sacraments.

Yet ONAC maintains that they have the legal right not only to use peyote anywhere in the US, regardless of state laws, but also that they have the legal right to use any “earth-based sacrament,” even entheogens not traditionally used by Native North Americans, such as cannabis and ayahuasca. Some ONAC branches claim the legal right to use psilocybe mushrooms, iboga, San Pedro,coca, and/or even DMT as well.

Moreover (although the Utah Supreme Court said that Utah state law at the time granted the right to religious use of peyote to any NAC member regardless of race) ONAC maintains that they have “unique constitutional rights” not possessed by rival NAC organizations like the Missouri-based New Haven Native American Church (NHNAC). ONAC became upset when the Ayahuasca Healing Retreats initially affiliated with the NHNAC, maintaining that ONAC alone could offer the AHR legal protection:

Please note that there are only two organizations off Indian Reservations that have the legal rights and authority to conduct American Native ceremonies that utilize the sacramental tea (Ayahuasca or Hoasca); 1) O Centro Espirita Beneficente Uniao do Vegetal (UDV) and 2) Oklevueha Native American Church (ONAC) and/or Blessed ONAC Independent Branch.

It is true that there are only two organizations with the legal right to hold ceremonies with ayahuasca in the US — but they are, of course, the UDV and certain Santo Daime churches, not the UDV and ONAC.

But the Ayahuasca Healing Retreats, at last report, has decided to affiliate with ONAC:

We have received legal advice from the Native American Church to ensure that our legality is unquestionable. In order to ensure our Ayahuasca Retreats are 100% legal, we are upgrading our website to be in total compliance with the Codes of Ethics and Conduct of the Oklevueha Native American Church.

However, the legal protection that ONAC claims to give to their members is fictitious. A Michigan man named Branden Barnes found this out to his sorrow. He believed that his membership in ONAC protected his marijuana grow, and as a result of believing in ONAC’s deception, he is facing 20 years to life in prison (his sentencing is on January 28 ) . On a fundraising page (with zero contributions, although Barnes is supposed to be the leader of an ONAC church, for whom his marijuana plants were being grown – 400 plants, so his church must be huge) Barnes and his partner state:

We are protected federally and allowed to possess any earth based plant we consider sacred such as cannabis as our holy sacrament. In 2014, Branden’s home suspiciously caught on fire while he was inside. Inside the home was an approved Native American Sacrament Garden which was being grown for use as sacrament and for its medicinal properties. Branden had proper signs posted throughout the home (indoor and outdoor) with all the necessary legal documents declaring his status as a member of the church. Upon calling 911 emergency personel responded to the fire. Branden immediately stated his position in the church and showed all necessary documents to the law enforcement officials on scene. They admitted to having no knowledge of the church and proceeded to treat him and the church sacrament being grown in a standard criminal fashion. The DEA and local police have conspired against the Oklevueha Native American Church, James “Flaming Eagle” Mooney, and Branden Barnes in an attempt to unlawfully deprive us of our right to practice our religous beliefs.

Clearly, Barnes sincerely believed that he was protected and following the law, but ignorance of the law is not admissible as a defense.

But ONAC cannot similarly be credited with naive, good-faith ignorance on this matter. ONAC has already had a test case for their religious right to use cannabis, and they lost.

In 2009, ONAC Hawaii (a “Native American Church” whose members smoke marijuana in the sweat lodge) had a shipment of a pound of marijuana seized by the government and destroyed. ONAC Hawaii sued the government for compensation and for the right to use the cannabis sacrament. They had to sue as a RFRA case, like anyone else, because not for one second did the courts take seriously the idea that, as a “Native American Church,” they could automatically use any plant they wanted to.

The case went through various phases, the RFRA claim and compensation claim being first dismissed by the district court, then their grounds for a RFRA suit being upheld on appeal. Finally the Ninth Circuit Court dismissed their RFRA claim, saying:

On the bare record before the court, a jury could not reasonably find in favor of Plaintiffs without, in effect, determining that any individual could use any drug by simply asserting that he or she was part of a religion that used that drug as a sacrament. Given what little is before the court, this court grants summary judgment in favor of the Government on the RFRA claim.

ONAC Hawaii may be appealing in the hopes of getting a Supreme Court hearing. But the key point is, the court did not even consider the notion that ONAC Hawaii had an existing legal right to use cannabis religiously, by virtue of being a Native American Church or a branch of ONAC. ONAC Hawaii had to sue for a religious exemption under RFRA, just as the UDV did, and just as anyone else would — and they lost.

There have been other local cases where ONAC members have been arrested for cannabis, such as the 2010 misdemeanor conviction of ONAC member Jeff “Standing Tall” Gardner for possession of paraphernalia containing cannabis resin. There have been reports of other arrests of ONAC members for cannabis, although details are hard to come by.

ONAC recently brought suit against Sonoma County (CA) for destroying the marijuana plants of the Valley of the Moon ONAC church in the unincorporated town of Kenwood (pop 1,030). Their lawyer, Matthew Pappas (a civil rights and disability attorney who has a background in medical marijuana issues, but no apparent background in entheogenic religion law, RFRA law or American Indian law) claimed that ONAC’s constitutional rights had been violated, and filed suit to recover the value of the seized plants. The ONAC church of Kenwood is reported to have fewer than ten members. The church had had 662 marijuana plants. Even if that single crop represented the whole year’s grow, one wonders how the members manage to each consume around 66 pounds of marijuana per year, or five to six pounds of marijuana apiece per month, in their religious ceremonies.

Yet the ONAC people still haven’t realized that they do not, in actual fact, have a legal right to religious use of cannabis, much less to cultivation of marijuana in unlimited amounts. Instead, they maintain that the legal issues they have had around cannabis show that ONAC is the “target of conspiracy,” “illegal harassment,” and “misguided judicial prosecutions.” They accuse the Native American Rights Fund (NARF) of conspiring with the BIA and the DEA against them as well.

As an example of the priority that ONAC gives to fantasy wishful thinking over actual facts, ONAC offers this lesson in history:

…in the year of 1876 by United States President Ulysses S. Grant signed into law under the Dawes Act, in relationship with the Lakota Sioux Rosebud Reservation, designating the Lakota Sioux religious practices of the Rosebud Native American Church of South Dakota as an earth based healing religion and that the Temple of this religion is the planet earth and ‘every substance’ provided by the earth is sacred and is to be utilized as a Sacrament.

In actual fact, the Dawes Act was passed in 1887, not 1876; it was signed into law by Grover Cleveland, not Ulysses S. Grant; the Rosebud Reservation had no special mention in it; and, most important, its purpose was to divide up Indian lands so they could be sold on the open market to non-Indian ranchers, and to “break up the tribal mass” and facilitate the destruction of Indian culture and assimilation of the Indian people. The Dawes Act came on the heels of the 1883 Religious Crimes Code, which outlawed Indian religion and ceremonies, and which was not lifted until 1934 and not formally repealed until 1978. The US government certainly did not “designat[e] the Lakota Sioux religious practices… as an earth based healing religion and that the Temple of this religion is the planet earth and ‘every substance’ provided by the earth is sacred and is to be utilized as a Sacrament.”

This is but a small sample of the fantasy world this group appears to live in.



In summary:

– Nothing in US law or court decisions allows religious exemptions for any otherwise illegal sacraments except for peyote and ayahuasca.

– ONAC has no special legal status and has no more or less legal protection to offer members than its rivals like the New Haven Native American Church of Missouri.

– Ayahuasca is legal for the two religious organizations (UDV and Santo Daime) that have sued for their rights under RFRA. Ayahuasca is NOT legal for any Native American Church chapters. Nor is it legal for anyone who simply claims ayahuasca as a sacrament who has not gone through the religious freedom exemption legal process.



Bottom line:

The “public legal ayahuasca churches” are putting themselves at legal risk, especially the Ayahuasca Healing Retreat, because of its high profile and aggressive publicity.

The “public legal ayahuasca churches” (Ayahuasca Healings in Washington and Ayaquest Native American Church in Kentucky) would do better to prepare themselves to fight their own RFRA cases, and in order to do that, they would need to begin by studying the legal precedents around ayahuasca churches, other entheogen cases and other RFRA cases, and learning the facts rather than depending on ONAC’s fantasies.

Joining ONAC does NOT provide legal protection for any “earth-based sacraments” except for peyote in certain states. By telling members that they can legally use “any earth-based sacrament,” the ONAC is misinforming people and putting them in danger.


(*) Gayle Highpine is an indigenous rights activist and a moderator of the Ayahuasca forums at www.forums.ayahuasca.com. Contact: gaylehighpine@yahoo.com.
----------------> ------------------> O <--------------- <-----------------------

 

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KillaNoodles
#42 Posted : 12/15/2015 4:01:30 AM

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jamie wrote:
it's crap draped in new age nonsense.


Agreed.
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KillaNoodles
#43 Posted : 12/15/2015 4:09:22 AM

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KillaNoodles
#44 Posted : 12/16/2015 11:25:28 AM

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travsha
#45 Posted : 12/16/2015 4:24:17 PM

Share Love ~


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KillaNoodles wrote:
Shamanism is a dying art, and any Shaman willing to sell his skills to the white man is no Shaman at all. Stay away from this "church" as well as any "Shamanic tours" to Peru, which most likely will lead you to some snake oil salesman looking to score a buck, not a trained Shaman from a lineage older than recorded history. The so-called Shaman of today is a shadow of his former title, corrupted by the invasion of capitalism unto his native lands. Practices which were once considered sacred and reserved for use among only his trusted tribesmen to heal them mentally and physically, are now sold to strangers in the vein of P.T. Barnum.

The act of travelling to someone else in order to find your Self, is entirely hypocritical. No one is better equipped to interpret your own dreams or visions than you.

edit: "the white man" is Native American speak for Westerners in general. It is not a racist term.

Many shamans are not racist, and I dont see how racism would help them at all. (even though you tried to be less racist with your disclaimer is doesnt hide your racism, sorry.)

I often stay with a remote tribe called the Q'ero. They have a prophecy that says the white man wandered from their altar and that the Q'ero and other natives needed to keep the altar for them for when they returned to it, because one day the Q'ero and the natives themselves would drift from the altar and need the white man to help them remember the ways. I think it is a beautiful prophecy and the Q'ero are some of the most loving people I have ever met.

Huichols have had a similar prophecy and are now sharing their teachings with others for the first time ever. So far it has gone pretty well for both groups to share their teachings.

I have been on some shamanic tours in Peru - every single one was great and no snake oil salesman at all. Really deep healing actually. And no - not only people looking to find themselves but people with cancer, epilepsy ect finding much needed healing.

BTW - asking another to help you find yourself is not hypocritical. Everyone needs helps sometimes. Even in traditional cultures and Native American cultures people had help interpreting dreams from their shamans and they had vision quests or coming of age rituals to help them. Nothing is wrong or hypocritical about needing help from someone else.

The church being discussed in this thread is obviously horrible, but I find your comments to just be horrible in a different way personally. Reminds me of a story though that I will share.

Once in a dream I asked the Buddha to show me heaven and hell. The Buddha agreed and first took me to hell.

At first hell didnt look so bad - everyone was seated at a giant table with tons of food, but weirdly everyone had spoons and forks instead of arms. Eventually I noticed that because the arms couldnt bend no one here could feed themselves and they all went hungry.

When we got to heaven things looked similar at first but then I noticed something different. There was still the giant table of food and everyone still had spoons and forks for arms and couldnt feed themselves.... But in heaven no one went hungry - because they all fed each other.


The power of working together is greater then the sum of the individual parts.

 
Praxis.
#46 Posted : 12/16/2015 4:33:27 PM

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nen888 wrote:
lastly, regarding questionable, commercial and/or unethical Ayahuasca 'healing' practitioners, i think a (carefully evidenced) list of such people should be made available...
naive and unsuspecting people can pay their money to be quite damaged, exploited, or really just sold short of what could be called true experienced 'healing practices'..

people, like the dodgy guy i alluded to earlier, are amassing money on the basis of a surge of interest in ayahuasca...this needs to be watched...checked..
in the interests of the community as a whole..


There are a number of existing websites/community forums which are dedicated to this exclusively, but I'm not aware of any that cater specifically to entheogens.

With this said, I think it would be great to have a stickied thread or sub-forum or something which can be used as an open working group for users to post about and research potential frauds. Claims would have to be supported by evidence, as you said nen, that can be seen by anyone on the forum. Honestly I think this would be invaluable, and it could encompass not just ayahuasca but other abused plant-medicines as well. I think this is an awesome idea and if folks are down I would be happy to get the ball rolling on this one.
"Consciousness grows in spirals." --George L. Jackson

If you can just get your mind together, then come across to me. We'll hold hands and then we'll watch the sunrise from the bottom of the sea...
But first, are you experienced?
 
KillaNoodles
#47 Posted : 12/16/2015 10:34:33 PM

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SnozzleBerry
#48 Posted : 12/16/2015 11:59:18 PM

omnia sunt communia!

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Praxis. wrote:
I think this is an awesome idea and if folks are down I would be happy to get the ball rolling on this one.

Thumbs up

Get it started and I'll get it stickied Smile
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dharmahuasca
#49 Posted : 12/19/2015 3:45:03 PM
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There is now a thread focused on the legal dimensions of Ayahuasca Healing/ONAC in the Open Discussion Area:
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...m=694496&#post694496
 
travsha
#50 Posted : 12/19/2015 5:14:26 PM

Share Love ~


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KillaNoodles wrote:
Disagree with your non-concept of Identity altogether, Travsha.
Your proposed understanding of Identity is too radically different from mine to make pleasant discourse possible. We understand the concept in completely different terms, from the foundation up. For me Identity is X, For you it is B.

Your ideal posits that anyone who places limitations on identity and recognizes others as distinguishable from themselves is racist. I find this position of yours to be a hostile stance against objectivity, against physical and biological truth.

I resent that you've called me a racist - never a great way to begin a conversation about identity - and do not agree with your argument fundamentally. Even constructivist identity theorists accept that there are certain factors of identity which are not sociologically, culturally, or psychologically malleable. To discount our differences, would be to reject waking life [and to disregard historical burdens and create a climate whereby racism can rise again. We must accept and display our differences proudly, that we can come to terms with one another]. I stand opposed to you, and wish you well, as hopefully, having both said our side, we can agree to disagree. Obscuring the view of our existent differences will not eliminate them.

I never said anything related to a non-concept of identity, you just made that up.

Just pointing out that the idea that someone shouldnt work with and help people because they are white is a completely racist view. You might also be interested to know that some of the earliest signs of shamanism come from France and white people practiced shamanism too.

I understand why you dont want to talk about it though - it can be hard to admit you are racist.
 
KillaNoodles
#51 Posted : 12/19/2015 5:42:02 PM

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entheogenic-gnosis
#52 Posted : 12/19/2015 6:20:01 PM
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KillaNoodles wrote:
Shamanism is a dying art, and any Shaman willing to sell his skills to the white man is no Shaman at all. Stay away from this "church" as well as any "Shamanic tours" to Peru, which most likely will lead you to some snake oil salesman looking to score a buck, not a trained Shaman from a lineage older than recorded history. The so-called Shaman of today is a shadow of his former title, corrupted by the invasion of capitalism unto his native lands. Practices which were once considered sacred and reserved for use among only his trusted tribesmen to heal them mentally and physically, are now sold to strangers in the vein of P.T. Barnum.

The act of travelling to someone else in order to find your Self, is entirely hypocritical. No one is better equipped to interpret your own dreams or visions than you.

edit: "the white man" is Native American speak for Westerners in general. It is not a racist term.


I disagree that shamanism is a dying art, it's a changing art. In the context of tribal cultures, specifically in south America, a good deal of the young men are leaving the tribal communities for jobs in the city, and are leaving a good deal of the culture behind with them, they are not becoming a shaman apprentice and learning practices essential to preservation of a largely unwritren culture, and in this sense yes, shamanism is dying.

There's also the exploitation of shamanic sacraments, which has been seen quite a bit recently with ayahuasca, this is another way that something called "shamanism" is being marketed, and in the process, much of its core has been lost and replaced with tourist scams.

Anybody can claim to be a shaman, and with the popularity of shamanism in recent times nearly every kind of person out there does claim to be a shaman, this is another way in which it's dying.

But I think the practice is very alive in a modern way. People are growing and consuming shamanic sacraments independently and exploiring them, the techniques of the plant shaman as well as the plant knowledge has moved into the hands of entirely new groups of people, each who is able to take these techniques and sacraments and create their own unique adaptations to them.

Plant shamanism has evolved into a set of sacraments and techniques that any individual or group can use to facilitate a novel and modern evolution of shamanic practice.

Shamanism is very alive in the sense that people who otherwise would never had had access to shamanic experience, are now able to learn which plants and compounds can be used in this manner, as well as how to cultivete and prepare them, and are now building new practices, all of which were rooted in shamanism.

I think entheogenic spirituality is entering a new age, more and more people are finding entheogenic plants and shamanic rituals, and are incorporating them into their modern lives.

I'm just happy that people are having the shamanic experience and are able grasp the implications of it in regards to spiritual practice, I'm happy that novel and unique practices are being formed based off of traditional shamanic techniques.

I think shamanism is far from dead, but it is growing, evolving, and becoming the focus of vastly different groups of people than it has been traditionally. Normal people are discovering the spiritual, psychological, and functional aspects of shamanic practice and spirituality, and while it may be altered from its traditional state and people, I think it's very far from being a dead practice.



-eg
 
KillaNoodles
#53 Posted : 12/19/2015 6:58:31 PM

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anne halonium
#54 Posted : 12/19/2015 7:02:28 PM

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i would offer that shamanism in general,
is bigger than just indians, and natives have no monopoly on anything.

as mentioned, im half white, half indian.
of course my white half loves to loot and burn.
and my indian half loves to be a unregulated pharmacist.....

one does not justify the other.
i dont even try.
"loph girl incarnate / lab rabbits included"
kids dont try anything annie does at home ,
for for scientific / educational review only.
 
entheogenic-gnosis
#55 Posted : 12/19/2015 8:37:05 PM
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KillaNoodles wrote:
Would you at least agree that "Traditional Shamanism" is a dying art? If I paint it more specifically as such. What you've described is globalization, which I see as a very grey topic with many known evils and a few known benefits.



Yes, traditional shamanism may be seen as a dying art...

Though I see it evolving and expanding, others may see this as death of tradition.

Shamanism was already global, even the Neolithic whites and early white civilization practiced shamanism, something close to shamanism was practiced by whites all the way up until the fall of eleusis. There are plant shamans which originated in Africa, in asia, in the Pacific islands, in Russia, in north America, and yes even in parts of Europe at points in its history.

The psilocybe shamans practice does not differ much from the iboga shaman or the Celtic shaman or the Siberian amanita shaman and so on, every culture on earth has practiced shamanism in one form or another at some point in time...

...so to say shamanism is for a specific people, but not for another is missing the point, all people should have access to this knowledge and these practices, so long as their desire is sincere, and in all actuality these practices belong to all people...

...The entheogenic experiences in particular, while on an entheogen I'm able to see how we are all one, and how divisions such as culture or race are insignificant, I'm able to see that we are all splinters off of the same cosmic source, we are all conscious beings experiencing a physical existence, and any of our differences pale in comparisons to our similarities.

And if these beautiful practices which are able to enrich so many people's lives are evolving and crossing between cultures and races I think that's a beautiful thing.

Out of every culture or race there are going to be those who misuse, misrepresent, and abuse these practices, but keep in mind these people come from ALL cultures and races.

I can understand taking offense at some white peoples obvious exploitation of Indian shamanism, though I think these really are the exception not the rule.

I think it's the plants who are the true teachers, and regardless of who it is growing and consuming the plants, the message can be received by all.

-eg
 
Grizzly Adams
#56 Posted : 12/22/2015 4:01:29 PM

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null24 wrote:
So apparently this org is trying to start a non denominational Aya " church" in the US. I've got some pretty big issues with them, not the least of which is the fee structure. A "sliding scale" of $1500 to $2000 per head, per ceremony.

Also this kind of rhetoric from their site:
"The only way we can do that, is to very thoroughly screen, and sift through the thousands of people who are interested, and only allow those who are coming with the purest, highest intentions. Who are coming with the intentions of service and the awakening of the world, in their heart."

This rubs me all kinds of wrong. Am I wrong? I'm catching a lot of flack from folks who seem to think that healing should be reserved for the monied.

I'm not linking to thier site.

That is cheaper than a trip to Peru.

Alot of this sounds fishy, but I don't have a problem with the price. They have start up costs to cover. If the money does not come in quick enough, it could fail. The first members/participants will be those that to have the money to spend on it. All those people that are saving up money to go to Peru, like myself, would now may have another option. The price will come down to attract more members/participants. The first always pay the most. Its part of business.

I will be highly interested if they can get all the legal stuff sorted out. I would choose the NAC over SD any and every day.

Sometimes a simple analogy is all you need to make things crystal clear. Smile - Akasha224
 
SnozzleBerry
#57 Posted : 12/22/2015 4:54:59 PM

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Grizzly Adams wrote:
Alot of this sounds fishy, but I don't have a problem with the price. They have start up costs to cover. If the money does not come in quick enough, it could fail.


Even if we pretend like we can parse the money out of everything else (which I don't think we can), there are still clear cut issues surrounding money/pricing.

For example, they state:

Quote:
We are not operating a business, and this is not an exchange of money for a service.

Quote:
Of course, the first place we put the money is into delivering you the most powerful Ayahuasca retreat experience. To pay our team, and cover all expenses for people who live at the land, dedicating their lives to sharing this healing with you and the world, as well as to purchase the medicine, pay our healers, donate to the Native American Church, and so on.


That's clearly contradictory and dishonest. They want it both ways, to make money off of selling a service/product (ayahuasca/aya ceremonies) while claiming they're not looking to profit off of this brew/ceremony. This then feeds back into numerous issues with their business/practices (going back to my initial point of not being able to parse them out).

I think there's tons of evidence that the financial aspects are problematic in their conceptualization, even if you don't take issue with the amount they are charging.
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travsha
#58 Posted : 12/22/2015 5:04:59 PM

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They charge $2000 for a single ceremony while others in the same area charge $200 for a single ceremony. AH also wants to host up to 100 people a ceremony once they grow enough which adds up to $200,000 a ceremony! A have a feeling that is much more then needed to pay for a couple tepees.

I saw they have a one week retreat for $4000. Much more expensive then going to Peru actually. A 7 day retreat in Peru costs about $700 and a plane ticket from USA costs about $600-1100, so going to Peru would be about half the price. I could plan a month long trip to Peru for about $4000 instead of a week with these jokers.

They are also know for recently planning a retreat to Peru where the collected money from people and bailed on them last second - basically ripping everyone off. Dont remember where I saw details about this, but it goes to show that as much as these guys try to seem like they care about others - money is their real motivator.
 
Praxis.
#59 Posted : 12/22/2015 8:50:53 PM

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SnozzleBerry wrote:
Praxis. wrote:
I think this is an awesome idea and if folks are down I would be happy to get the ball rolling on this one.

Thumbs up

Get it started and I'll get it stickied Smile


Just seeing this now, I'll have something ready to go in the next day or so.

Thanks! Smile
"Consciousness grows in spirals." --George L. Jackson

If you can just get your mind together, then come across to me. We'll hold hands and then we'll watch the sunrise from the bottom of the sea...
But first, are you experienced?
 
anne halonium
#60 Posted : 12/22/2015 9:38:04 PM

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travsha wrote:
$200,000 a ceremony!


200k cant even buy a humane condo,
my objection isnt the cash,
its hardly empire building $....were talking cheap apartments.

my objection is
" what makes these guys holy enough to dole out ANYTHING"

id offer a dead concert has more spiritual high ground...........
( and no one complains about the cash they make!!!!!!!)
"loph girl incarnate / lab rabbits included"
kids dont try anything annie does at home ,
for for scientific / educational review only.
 
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