There is no we, or us. There is only individuals.

I never did anything to first nations people. What was done was a long time ago, I was just born into the same Romanized colonialism that has perpetuated for the last 1500 years or so.

Thank you both, Wonderful food for thought.

Sorry if this is veering more off-topic <3



For me this isn't about assimilation as much as it's about trying to carve out a niche where I can actually affect some degree of change. STS facilitating the distribution of seeds among people who are actually dedicated to preserving and growing these plants is, imo, both qualitatively and quantitatively different than either state-sponsored cultural assimilation programs or corporate policies that de facto create assimilation. For me, the question is not only about scale and type, but also about living in a world full of problems that need to be addressed.

For example, consider iboga. The facts are that a prohibitionist paradigm coupled with rampant consumerism has created an environment where iboga is under ecological threat. We know that demand for iboga exists and is increasing as it gains more publicity. We know that poaching is taking place owing to the value of this plant on the global marketplace. We know that many people and treatment centers don't really care about where it comes from as long as it does what it's supposed to do. We know that seeds were distributed from Gabon decades ago and have been propagated around the world by a small number of growers.

So...

If this seed has already been taken out of it's natural habitat and propagated.
And if I can obtain this seed without contributing to poaching and grow it out.
And if doing so means that:

1) I can do a small part to preserve the existence of this plant
2) I can potentially propagate this plant so that others can also contribute to that preservation
3) I can perhaps provide limited treatment largely outside of a consumerist framework

Then, personally, I feel an obligation to do so.

Why? Because there's nothing else I can do. I have no framework for understanding or engaging in Bwiti culture. I don't know anyone who has asked me to come to Gabon and fight poachers. I'm not looking to incorporate Bwiti culture into anything that I'm doing. As someone who has only read things on the internet, I have minimal knowledge about the indigenous cultural use of this plant. Yet, non-commodified propagation presents a concrete action I can take that will hopefully contribute to the preservation of this plant.

I can't preserve the cultural legacy of the Bwiti or any other indigenous group, nor would I claim that as a personal goal. All I can do is attack structures at home that contribute to a global paradigm where indigenous cultures are under the gun. And you can bet that I do my best to participate where I can, to put my body on the line for my beliefs. I'm interested in models of solidarity, where geographically separate people are able to take diverse actions towards interconnected ends. So, as a small example, I may not be going down to the Yasuni to fight on the front lines against extractive industry, but I will do jail support for eco-prisoners, I will engage in campaigns against extractive industry where I live, and I will do anything I'm capable of to inhibit the replication of these practices.

Personally, I don't see merits in me killing my plants. In stating, "I have no right to own this" and surrendering them to the abyss. I'm more than willing to acknowledge and discuss the long and troubled historical circumstances that have led to these plants being here and now. Personally, I don't think that the damage needs to be healed (it may never be healed, in all honesty) before it's acceptable to propagate threatened, rare, or entheogenic plants. I have no cultural claim to these plants, nor am I seeking one. I recognize the intrinsic value of their existence and circumstances that are threatening that existence and am taking action in the one way that's actually within my power.

Were I able to bring down capitalism and colonialism with a snap of my fingers, I'd gladly do that first, but imo, if we wait until everything is resolved, there may be nothing left.

I couldn't have said that better myself Snozz! Well put.

I'm gonna try to keep this post more reasonable in length (it's still pretty long, again I'm sorry about that). I feel like I've shared my piece and your last few responses have given me plenty to think about. With this said I do want to respond to a few points and just try to re-iterate some aspects of my own perspective. I think this conversation has been desperately needing to happen, and I for one feel grateful that the Nexus is a place where we can talk about these things in an honest way without judgement or hostility.



I see where you are coming from, and for me this has been the most challenging thing for me to comes to terms with. I respect your opinion, but like I mentioned in my last post I don't think it really matters if we agree or not. We want to try to level the playing field a bit? Well IMO it means we have to do things we don't want to do and we need to lift up the voices of those who are traditionally ignored, even if we struggle with what they are saying.



A few things here, and I guess I'll start with what I agree with. I agree that we need to humbly turn to the people who hold these traditions, without a doubt.

But if we are looking to them as teachers then why do most of us struggle so hard with allowing them to teach? If we respect their wisdom and knowledge, why would we only accept the bits and pieces of it that we find the most attractive? You wouldn't volunteer for a chemistry class and after a lesson or 2 tell the teacher they are wrong and that you could do what they do much better. You would sit and be respectful, and you would listen; and if there were something that you did not understand you would ask questions.

And lastly, yes I think in the end we need to past the arbitrary distinction of skin color. But we aren't there yet. The reality is that certain people hold more power than others because of the color of their skin, period. I find that this becomes even more dangerous when people are unaware of the power that they actually hold, and when you have that kind of power without realizing it, you can unintentionally hurt people. It's like the big jock who doesn't know how strong they are and they practically crush your hand when they shake it. If we are serious about working towards a more egalitarian society (and Im not sure we'll ever get there, but a goal is important), we need to adequately understand the dynamics of the current situation. Our world is defined by power relationships, these power relationships are determined by class, race, and gender. If we don't look at these things we can't move forward. It's uncomfortable but we have to talk about them, we need to dissect the real issues. Similar to an untreated wound that's been festering for a really long time, we're gonna have to really get in there and disinfect it/pick it apart for it to start healing itself. As a whole, we cannot rush forward into the future hoping for good things when we have this massive gaping wound that's been ignored. Like any serious injury, it will not just get better by itself. There needs to be intervention, surgery, healing, reconciliation. Trying to run with a broken leg will have bad consequences.



Why does it have to be indigenous culture? Why can we not look back to our own traditions to the best of our ability?

I think your intentions are noble but I think we need to be realistic about the future. We can save the environment and "rescue" civilization, but that doesn't automatically mean we will have a society that is just and righteous. We can still have power imbalances in a "green" world. Privilege, power, systemic racism, exploitation, genocide, displacement....none of these things have to go away if our end goal is just to prevent our extinction. We need a bigger picture, a larger lens. The process has to be a collaborative effort and nobody can be left out on the way. And to be honest with you I think this is what the Taitas and other Native people want too, they want to help save the world and they believe that their knowledge is a valuable part of that process. But they want to make sure that their interests are equally represented and that they have a say in their own future and thus far that is not happening.

Environmentalism is a movement that's become led by and for white people. Climate change is something we cannot completely negate, and often times I wonder who is included in "humanity" when we talk about "saving humanity". When we talk about offsetting the effects of climate change, where is the harm being offset to? We already know that right now it is women and people of color who are the most impacted by climate change. When we try to "save the world" without looking at things like race and gender and class we are acting through a filter that is inherently dysfunctional and harmful. This kind of behavior leads to this kind of event. (Greenpeace stages an action on Peruvian sacred ground. Not covered in this article, there was a counter-action led by indigenous activists at a Greenpeace action-camp in which a banner was hung that read something along the lines of: Greenpeace, respect Indigenous Sacred Ground!)



I assumed pretty much the same thing, though I thought it was worth pointing out as it did seem odd to me.

On the matter of a German and a Native born in the same place. I think that the Navajo is going to have a completely different experience of life than the German. The German will never know what it feels like to be a Navajo growing up in colonial America. Race isn't a geographical thing, it's a social thing. I am black but I grew up in a totally white environment. I moved to a traditionally black neighborhood and for a while I felt really uncomfortable. I spoke differently, listened to different music, and came from an entirely different part of the world. But I was accepted as part of the community because I share the experience of being a black person in 21st century America. There is a sense of identity in that, something that I can claim as my own. Im not going to elaborate on this much more as I'm in a hurry, but I hope it might offer some food for thought.



Yes you do absolutely fantastic work and I think it's incredibly important that we continue to look at analogs. Please keep doing what you're doing!



I respect and admire where you're coming from. I hold the same belief in a lot of ways. But I have to ask, why ayahuasca and why peyote? There are psychedelics everywhere and I think it's an arbitrary distinction to say that ayahuasca is a much more powerful teacher than a high-dose of mushrooms (imo). I understand they all operate differently and will teach in different ways, but I think it's arrogant at best and dangerous at worst to suggest that you've learned "all you can" from any entheogen. They all connect us to the infinite, in different ways, but nonetheless the wisdom that any entheogen offers is infinite. I don't agree with taking something just because it is there...we don't have to take every single entheogen out there to be an engaged psychonaut; it's not as though we don't have alternatives to these substances and if we know that our engagement with them makes many people uncomfortable where is the harm in just exploring something a little different?

This is just my own perspective of course. I respect your opinion and in a lot of ways I'm envious of your enthusiasm.



Through our limited interaction I have always felt like you are a genuinely good person. I might not actually know you but your compassion is evident in your words. We might not agree on some things, but I am changing from day to day and you've provided a lot of insight for me here. I appreciate your engagement and I wish you all the best in your pursuit for Truth.



Snozz, you present a really good argument here. I've been trying to sort this out in my own head for quite some time as I have several San Pedros growing and I would of course not kill them. But does this mean I absolutely have to ingest them? I am really out of time here, but this is something I am still stuck on and I don't know how to move forward with.

I have to give you credit, most of your post has me stumped Snozz. I see the value in things like STS and I see the value in preserving the plant species themselves. But where do we draw the line with our engagement? I don't have an answer to this at all, but I'd be curious to know what others think.

To be clear, I'm not saying we need to dwell on the past to the point where we are inactive in constructing our future. Seed sharing, jail support, campaign organizing...these things are absolutely indispensable. But what I'm suggesting is that when we engage with this sort of thing we do so in a way that acknowledges real power structures that exist today as a result of what has happened in the past. Organize campaigns, yes! But be damned sure that you give room for people to help lead who are normally forced to the sidelines. Make sure you don't plan your action on ground that is considered sacred by others. Be accessible, be humble, be conscious. I see it almost every day; people create beautiful spaces to try to incite positive change but we are all so stuck in a certain way of thinking that we can push people out when all we're trying to do is invite them in. For example...a lot of people don't think about handicap accessibility when they organize events, meetings, or actions and so people with physical/mental disabilities are excluded from participating in building their own future.

And that's all I mean....each and every single one of us holds power over other people in ways that we might not recognize. I never used to think about the marginalization of people with disabilities and now I see it everywhere. I'm rambling now, but it's interesting to me how the more I understand the nature of power-structures and relationships the more I see it resembling the psychedelic experience. Once you see it, it never really goes away. It alters the way in which you engage with the world and see yourself in it. Recognizing our place within the relationships that make up our world/society is the first step to deconditioning oneself from that larger society. Before we can try to fix something, we need to identify the problem.

For example, deciding not to be racist or not to support colonization is more than a simple decision; it is a process of unlearning and deconditioning. We live in a soup of relationships that define our perception of the world. The key is in identifying these relationships and reducing them down to the most common denominator. I am still struggling with my own internalized anti-blackness, so I can't help but laugh when I hear a white person casually decry racism as if it's some kind of conscious decision you make overnight. Liberation, in every sense of the word, is a process of unlearning.

Microcosms and macrocosms. The psychedelic perspective is very much present (if not present then desperately needed) in the work that needs to be done to heal our world.

And I'm done again. So much for keeping it short and on-topic

I'm going to try and butt-out of this thread since I've brought it off track and I think other people have plenty to share. But I just want to thank everyone for being so smart and giving me lots to think about.

---

EDIT

I saw no reason to bump this; but I recently came across something I think should be included in this discussion.

The Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples was adopted by the UN in 2007. I strongly encourage anyone following this thread to read it thoroughly.

Here is a quote:

Wonderful thread!

I have actually been getting into this topic a lot lately.... Someone invited me to be a member of their branch of the Oklehueva church and claimed it gave me protected rights to use any plant I want in ceremony and even to host ceremonies as long as I didnt charge. The Oklehueva site seemed to suggest something similar.

I did more research and found out that there isnt really any protection for this. There is precedent, but that isnt the same as protection. The constitution suggest legal rights, but the courts have the final say, and many of the rights the church claims to offer havent been tested and most people should theoretically have the same rights without a church since it is in the constitution (so why the need for a membership?).

But - courts sometimes are creative in how they interpret or apply the constitution. Many laws contradict each other. There is a lot of legal "grey" area here that hasnt really been tested.

And now I see adds for churches in USA saying that are run by white people saying that they are a branch of the NAC and can offer any medicine they want legally and charging for it. They claim to offer protection and charge for memberships.

I would feel much better about it if they just said something like "We believe this is your constitutional right and that there is a precedent to support the religious rights of people regarding sacrament use within churches. We believe our church may offer you some extra layer of protection. However, while we believe the law is on our side, not all of our rights have been tested in court yet, only some of them have. So far the NAC only has won indisputable rights to serve peyote, though we think these rights extend to other plants, and so far two other churches have won rights to serve Ayahuasca which we think sets a positive precedent in the courts." Seems more honest and transparent....

Seems very dishonest though to charge for a member ship and guarantee rights that havent been fully tested yet (especially with the NAC not supporting Oklehueva). When I asked some of the organizations whether they would invest in protecting any members who got charged they refused to answer, which was also a bit disappointing and scary to think about....

All of that being said - I do totally support the free use of entheogens and plant medicines, and I do like that the church is trying to extend protection to people, but I think there is some dishonesty mixed in there as well which could be dangerous...

Interesting online info about ONAC:
ONAC member facing 20 years in federal prison if convicted: https://fundly.com/onac-target-of-conspiracy

ONAC busted for cannabis ceremonies: http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2015/10/religious_marijuana_use_by_med.html

Great thread detailing some dangers about ONAC:
http://forums.ayahuasca.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=41257

i dont recognize the indian pseudo monopoly on cactus.

cactus were around long before indians.
its a farce to suggest indians hold the high ground spiritually.

the cactus belongs to whoever can grow it.
with modern grow teks, there is no shortage .
indians certainly do not have a monopoly on the grow .

ironically , my mom is a member of a federal recognized tribe.
she has suggested i join for yrs. i flatly refuse.

If you are Mexican amd residing in the US you could become a member of the NAC. Anyone can practice thier own faith and beliefs. But lets make one thing clear recreationaly tripping is not a religion or faith. Its. life style. If you want to experience peyote thier is a place for that. Its called the peyote way church.

The only monopoly that exist is the mining companies tryingbto extract all the mimeral from the gardens. sgop hating on indians who grow medicine. the gardens are for all who tend to it spiritually. if you dont tend to the garden then you will not have food to harvest. indians so happen to hVe discovered huikuri

Some historical context is useful in this discussion. We can trace use of peyote in Mexico back several thousand years. However use amongst North American native tribes only goes back to the mid-1800's originating with Quanah Parker who was treated with peyote by a Mexican curandero and subsequantly brought the practice to the Kiowa and Comanche tribes in Oklahoma. From there it spread to wide use by the plains tribes all the way up into Canada largely due to Indian relocation programs pushing tribes further north. So historical use of peyote amongst current Federally recognized Indian tribes is actually quite a recent affair, and even then, many of the tribes now included in the American Indian Religious Freedom Act either never historically utilized peyote or adopted the NAC/peyote religion quite late in the game.

It's interesting to note that James "Flaming Eagle" Mooney's grandfather James ‘Jamie’ Harvey Mooney was instrumental in forming the the Native American Church of Oklahoma in 1918. Whereas Peyote use was not adopted by the Navajo until the 1930's. All in all, the North American traditional use argument falls apart pretty quickly under scrutiny.

Thus the Federal and State laws requiring Native American heritage to participate in the peyote religion are completely rooted in fallacy and moar than a little racist in practice. If anyone has rights to peyote use by way of historical tradition, it would be Mexican-Americans as opposed to Native Americans, but they do not. The truth is that use of plant medicines is a human birthright deeply rooted in the historical tradition of every person no matter where they hail from.

Now on to ONAC. ONAC has a precedent to hold peyote ceremonies for their card carrying members in the State of Utah. Anything about any other substance, or any other place, is merely lip service and has not been legally established. So engage in ceremonies in other states or with other sacraments at your own risk.

I appreciate that the ONAC mission and values statement purports to recognize that all earth based healing ceremonies and plant medicines should be available to all people. I dislike that in practice it becomes all people*.
*all people willing to pay for a $200 membership card that allows access to "sacrament" dealers and pay-to-pray "ceremonies" with several hundred dollar required donations.

There are people within ONAC that do freely offer ceremonies, that do not ask required donation fees, and do not turn people away for not having deep pockets or a membership card. These ceremonies won't be found on the members only forum though, they are held by word of mouth and happenstance amongst trusted individuals and the will of the creator to guide the right people to the location of the lodge or tipi.

Peyote Way is a good group, but they also operate on that pay-to-pray model. I understand operating these institutions is not free, and medicine people need to eat too, but my personal barometer for the difference between a sham-man and a true healer is whether or not a sincere seeker will be turned away at the door for a lack of financial resources.

If a person is comfortable buying a "religious experience", there are plenty of people willing to sell that, but selling these ceremonies is not just an insult to federally recognized indigenous peoples, it's an insult to the birthright of all people indigenous to planet earth.

This is why would encourage you to 'cultivate' a personal relationship with the plant and fungi teachers and to create your own folk traditions. No single race has proprietary rights to the campfire, and ultimately these experiences are between you and the medicine, whether you are in a tipi, a maloka, or your own backyard.

My experiences with ONAC thus far have been positive , I have not noticed any push to involve individuals In careless disregard for Native American spiritual practices , in fact , all I've been exposed to are conditions to deepen my connection and respect and learn from my elders . This is good . also I must note, they do seem to protect other sacramental plants outside of NAC protected peyote , but I would move with caution . I have also noticed some of the pay to pray dreamer mentioned , but not everywhere , I've experienced very much free healing on the healers behalf at the branch I attend .

Also given the circumstances of spiritual progression now , and the cultural dismay ive noticed inside of industrialized ,so called civilized societies now, I support ONAC s effort s to solidify an obvious right to humankind s spiritual practices, Even if it does not involve Native American nation recognized individuals. The heart , in my opinion is the important factor here and especially the continuation of the practice , as I said, I ve noticed mostly only humbleness and a point to learn at ONAC ceremonies I've attended and I believe they are a blessing and doing good work. It is more about roots than that of getting high. But I have not attended nationwide ceremonies so I cannot condence my entire opinion .

But also that they support individual rights to use other sacraments bedside s peyote legally ....I also support, in the context they explain .

Now are there folks who don't want to learn and are only after exemption and a high, certainly, but I know them to be shown the door. Also the protection of sacramental possession is not solid , state laws still can apply and although there seems to be some protection at federal level , I would not be open about possession or culture of sacraments. But honestly , that they are fighting for religious sacramental protection at all, I must give blessings to as well , especially in a spiritually oppressive, at least when involving sacraments that are criminalized, Society.

I also agree with dreamer that cultivating a tradition with plants and fungi is a good practice and builds a bond together between medicine plants and sacraments , it at a basic level teaches respect .

No one owns any plant other than the plant they grow from seed and plant in their own yard unless perhaps they own a patent on said plant and then they may be said to have ownership in as far as that patent allows.

Genesis 1:29 King James Bible

And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.


Genesis 1:29 Christian Standard Bible

God also said, "Look, I have given you every seed-bearing plant on the surface of the entire earth and every tree whose fruit contains seed. This will be food for you,

Genesis 1:29 International Standard Version

God also told them, "Look! I have given you every seed-bearing plant that grows throughout the earth, along with every tree that grows seed-bearing fruit. They will produce your food.

Genesis 1:29 New Heart English Bible

And God said, "Look, I have given you every plant yielding seed, which is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree, which bears fruit yielding seed. It will be your food.

There was no mention of exceptions here. With that being said, if you are Christian and you believe every word of the bible then it looks like pejuta aka peyote has also been given to you as it is a seed bearing plant.

Now, there exists many different organized versions or denominations of Christianity and each one may believe something slightly different. I'm not arguing those nuances.

However, all organized religions we can trace the origin of started from some individual or group of individuals who believed in change. I.e. a change needed to be made or else they had new light, inspiration, visions, etc. that led them to believe differently than they did in the past and thus a new religion was born.

We see how the NAC has incorporated elements of Christianity in its ceremonies on occasion and we see the same in religions like Santeria. Religions are not static and devoid of change. Even beliefs change over time. Christianity was once used to justify slavery in America. Those beliefs have since changed.

Who gets to decide what we believe in?

For me, if I spend time growing a plant from seed I have cultivated a relationship with that plant. If I have brushed the pollen on the anthers of one pistil with the pollen from another flower and collected those seeds from a controlled cross even within the same species, but perhaps different localities... I have engaged in a unique relationship with that plant that few others are privy to. Growing those seeds up I have an even closer relationship with that plant. I have watered and cared for that seed and been a part of its creation even. If I pray with and to the spirit of that plant each and every day during this process is my connection any less valid than another persons?

Who gets to decide what we consider sacred? Why should we hold an entire species hostage to one particular belief system or race? If we held this limited belief how many foods would we be allowed to eat? If everything had to be verifiably traced back to our ancestry and then we were allowed to eat it, but not before? What if we held that all elements of Christianity had to be removed from the NAC ceremonies as Native Americans did not have the right blood to practice or hold those beliefs?

I'm sorry, humans make rules. Humans make laws. Humans decide who to let into their cliques and with whom to identify and what qualifies membership in religions, circles, etc. We as humans decide to allow spirituality to flourish or to set rules and laws to constrict it. We decide how this is done.

I believe that religion and or spirituality does not have to be limited to race, ethnicity, sex, or anything else as superficial as all of that. I believe that if one finds spirituality or insight from a plant and one is not robbing from the wild, but growing ones own plants from seed then one is indeed capable of forging a very unique bond with those plants if one so desires.

To think that the spirit of a plant will somehow not speak to you because you were born the wrong color or the wrong percentage of genes is absurd to me.

To think that we should buy into the myth that we have to get our spiritual teachings from another person, tradition, religion, etc. is totally untrue to me. That is not my personal truth. My personal truth holds that while it may be nice to share traditions and beliefs we are all ultimately responsible for our own truths. We are all ultimately responsible for what we believe and how we believe and if you choose to believe that you have the right to speak to any plant spirit you wish to believe in then that is your choice.

Now, my personal belief is that should you choose to start your own personal religion or connection to a plant you don't steal another religions title. I.e. you would modify it to denote your unique approach... just as many different approaches to Christianity have been born to include some NAC ceremonies who have adopted elements of Christianity. We all adopt, change, grow, and inspire.... or we become stagnant and that religion dies off....