Physical addiction is also quite different than psychological addiction, and is synonymous with physical dependence- which does indeed lead to detrimental affects such as withdrawal, by definition.

If your talking about something different (and you seem to be changing your thoughts on it now) then you should change the title of this thread and make it clearer in your original post. After all, you said it yourself: "Is it addiction in the traditional sense? no"

It seems that what is being said here, is that there may be a physiological basis to psychological addictions. Clearly everything humans do, or think about have physiological components or effects. It makes no sense to call behavioral or psychological addictions physically addicting, though... even if there turns out to be a physical component to them. This is because the term "physically addicting" already has a definition.

Many debates here on the Nexus are just pure semantics, and this is bordering on being that way as well. The definition of a physical addiction includes tolerance, withdrawals, and certain negative effects. This is clearly not true of classical psychedelics.

But, if you are talking about things like sex addiction or being a workaholic, we already have words to describe these things. I am guessing that for most people, even claiming psychological addiction for psychedelics is a stretch. This is the terminology we use for Marijuana addiction... which anyone will tell you, is orders of magnitude more addicting than DMT. As some have pointed out, DMT can be anti-addictive... in the extreme.

I think the word addiction is tossed around too liberally as it is. There are researchers and entire fields of study that have a vested interest in making everything into a pathology. By the definition of addiction the OP was proposing, nearly anything people enjoy can be considered addicting. But again, we have a word for this kind of "addiction" already... enjoyment. Enjoyment has physiological components and causes dopamine production too.

This is all rather pointless... semantic mental masturbation.

A more interesting debate would be the OP's repeated conjecture that thoughts are tied only to our grey matter. There is no evidence for this. Despite neuroscientists touting that they are on the verge of explaining consciousness and sentience... for decades... they have done no such thing, and are not likely to ever do this. This is a debate that can go beyond mere semantics IMHO. (though it will not likely get past epistemology... but such is life.)



HSF

Indeed.

This turned out to be a good thread...

Im glad to see some good discussion. I think it's more fun to challenge convention, which is something that comes with the territory here.

My argument still stands however. While the data is not comprehensive, it seems to point toward an efflux of dopamine in the nucleus accumbens, an area of the brain associated with reward seeking behavior.

Reward pathways are adaptive and there for the benefit of the organism, most of the time. I think semantics ARE very relevant. Our linguistic understanding is central to internalizing concepts. Why should we only study a pathway in relation to disease?

I think more would see my point if they shared my lack of spiritual belief. What fascinates me most about dmt is that it can convince me wholeheartedly that I have seen god. I see this as proof that having a concept of god is a physical phenomenon. This novel perspective is what I have to offer.

Thanks to all. I feel like I am slowly learning how to share my thoughts, while keeping a close ear to the feedback I receive.

It's all good HB. I get where you are coming from.

For the record, though. Your perspective is not really novel. There have been a few threads where people have taken your stance. In fact, unlike most entheogen forums, the Nexus is home to a great many non-spiritual, full on reductionist materialists. I think you will find a lot of like minds in your straight neuroscience materialism stances here.

It is more your undue certainty that what your studies show is actual physical addiction. Dopamine release alone does not make something physically addictive... even in the "reward centers." This is present in psychological addiction and other lesser addictions as well, as I pointed out.

I, though, am more interested in what you said fascinates you about being convinced of a divine encounter and attributing it to a mere drug effect.

I tend to see it the other way around: What fascinates me is that people who are 100% convinced of something, can convince themselves that it was all in their mind when they come down.

This has something to do with most people's sieve-like memory for all things hyperspatial. DMT is capable of giving you vast eternities of experience in the space of a heartbeat... but most people remember next to nothing when their minds return to their former size.

I have even seen this effect with people when everyone was dead sober. One time, for instance, a group of us (maybe 20 people) all stood, mouths agape as a number of UFOs flew directly over our heads, did some weird stuff in the sky, some of them blinked in and out... and then the largest took off so fast it left a streak of light going up to the atmosphere where it visibly left the atmosphere and the trail followed to this point and disappeared. I don't say this to start a debate about UFOs, but rather to illustrate the immense human capacity for amnesia and denial. Because... as the event happened we all looked each other in the eyes and confirmed what we saw. We were giddy and people were losing their sh*t. Then, within 5 minutes a few people began denying parts of what we all saw. By 15 minutes, half the group were unsure of at least some parts of the events. To cut to the chase, by hour 3, only a few of us were still agreeing on the totality of the event, and were blown away to see that a majority of the group now denied ever having seen anything at all. Even those of us who remembered the event in "full" had the feeling that we might have some gaps in our recollection. This was dead sober and early in the morning.

If anything, DMT experiences can be even more slippery than this. I frequently have had to remind people as to what they were saying while tripping later... often to blank stares of total unrecognition.

The mind tends to reject anything that doesn't fit into its current worldview or structure. This... and the fact that hyperspatial memories are a bit like dream memories... in that they can fade into thin air in a moment if you are not skilled in holding on to them.

So... it is not surprising to me that people can meet gods, or feel they have communed with the BMOC creator/ all-one infinite and then later rationalize it away as aberrant neurons or whatever. How people can have these "OMG, I will never forget this as long as I live" moments, these "no denial possible" proofs of non-material things... and then forget them utterly. I just find it fascinating.

Sometimes the memories come back to people when they get back in that expanded state again... and they slap their foreheads and say "My god... how could I have ever forgotten this!?" only to forget again, and again.

Forgetting may be the thing humans are best at TBH.

;-)

HSF

I've noticed that as the time between a really deep experience increases, the more ones ideas about what is actually going on there tend to get more hum-drum and more mundane. I include myself in this of course. You really don't feel the implications of it anywhere near as strong as you do when your fresh out of a wormhole and still steaming.

"Sometimes the memories come back to people when they get back in that expanded state again... and they slap their foreheads and say "My god... how could I have ever forgotten this!?"

This has happened to me countless times ^__^

I find that memory in general often improves dramatically while tripping.

Well put! I agree...I know it seems to be the case, more often than not, with myself.


Hypothetically speaking..IF some massive, groundbreaking discovery were made tomorrow & suddenly there was a mountain of indisputable evidence that psychedelics were physically addictive; In comparison to the way other substances effect our minds/bodies/lives/families, etc., I'd be the first one to stand & shout my name & declare proudly that "I'm addicted to psychedelics!"

Again...big 'IF' that were to be the case...
I'm 'addicted' to something that aided me in saving my own life. Psychedelics broke me from years of being stuck in a vicious cycle of kicking & relapsing, more times than I'll admit, with Heroin addiction, Suboxone addiction, Lithium addiction, Antidepressant addiction, Benzo. addiction, Cocaine addiction, Alcohol, etc.

All substances listed above made me so worthless, unfit to be around, a tinderbox full of anger, unpredictable, or threw me into a state of catatonia. I was a walking, dying shell of a Human. No one wanted to be around me. I didn't even want to be around myself. Depression was killing me. The plethora of pharmaceuticals I was prescribed were sucking me dry. The hard street drugs were killing me. The really sick part about all of that is: Breaking free from all of the above nearly killed me, as well. The physical withdrawals were something I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy.

It was only through using psychedelics as a tool (not just as recreational fun) that I was ever able to successfully break ANY of those addictions. I should also point out that they aren't always love & rainbows either. I've had experiences that left me inconsolable. Experiences that put fear like one couldn't imagine within me. As time has gone on, I know so much more about who I am, what I want, how to treat others, & how to be a better person in general. I worked myself to aid them in 'working' me...If that makes any sense.

I suppose what I'm getting at is; If someone told me tomorrow they possessed concrete fact that I was somehow physically addicted to psychedelics, I'd shrug my shoulders & say "So be it." I'll take psychedelics & what they offer me, over ANY other addiction. I've been through some of the toughest...To come out on the other side feels like being reborn, reset, & rebooted. They offered me a second chance. However, That's just my experience. I don't condone or suggest that anyone do what I do...Everyone is different. What works for me may not work for anyone else.

I do know that I'm not going to be violently ill in less than 24hrs if I don't consume a psychedelic. I'm not going to go into convulsions or die from a seizure from missing a dose of a psychedelic. I'm not going to crave injecting a psychedelic into my blood stream. I won't ponder to steal, sell my soul & everything I own to get that 'next fix' of a psychedelic. To me, that's a good thing. Addictive or not. Though, I'm on the "they aren't physically addictive" side of the fence..

..very brief points:

indole hallucinogens have no withdrawl symptoms, which are part of physical addiction, as alluded to by under the veil above..

it is not as simple as 5HT2 receptors..another example these substances work on multiple receptor points..there are at least twelve kinds of 5HT receptor..hence the effects of DMT differ from LSD, which both differ greatly from dopamine
..discussion of effects at a single sub type of a receptor are very oversimplistic therefore potentially misleading ..

Blah blah blah hyperspace. Blah blah aliens. Blah blah pineal gland. Blah blah near death experience. It's the same old story wherever I go. It's a church with followers and a creed to defend. The funny part is that you guys are sitting on the very source for those things, but get so wrapped up in how awesome it feels and how much it improves your daily life that it stagnates.

I hate counter culture. I hate the Beatles. I hate hipsters. And I hate people who want to separate themselves from reality.

I sent the traveler a PM a while back to ban me. Would you guys just do it already?

And with this we conclude this thread.


The Traveler