it's really odd that you can obtain any kind of noticable effect from smoking raw plant material. I had to extract literally kilos of the grass fresh just to get around 500mg of alkaloids. From a chemical standpoint, it's not possible to be getting tryptamine effects from smoking a pipe of the unextracted grass. You might be experiencing hordenine etc but still seems unlikely. I dont want to sound too much like a phyto-rationalist though, I guess there is more going on with plants than just chemicals.

that's something i hope to convey with my research.
there is something going on that we have no idea about.
i am very aware that Phalaris shouldn't be as effective as it is.

I have gotten about a gram from 3 lbs of fresh materials.

It does seem a bit more stimulating when raw plant is smoked, so hordenine would probably be what is activating any sort of noticeable effect.

When i extract or consume Phalaris, i am not looking for simply DMT, i am hoping to communicate with the "phalaris teacher" like this thread is named.

It is a very small classroom so it's important we pay attention to the plant and not invest our complete faith in pharmacology texts.

Honestly not just trying to give Phalaris a good name or anything. Have been extensively working with these plants and appreciate the fantastic results it has displayed thus far.
No placebo effects. Only certain points in the season like early spring and fall do Phalaris joints have any effect for us.

Set and setting play into this plant/human dialogue.

ALSO!
Have found PNW zone 7b Phalaris Arundinacea to be consistent with my tryptamine tastes.
You really gotta be on point with what patch you harvest from.
Like i previously stated, the lowest yield i got was .002%



And exactly what level of "psychedelia" must one obtain before a plant experience is considered "active" or "entheogenic"?

In my eyes, if it affects me more than skullcap, damiana, hops, or syrian rue than something really sweet is going on for tryptamine containing plants.

Have only had a handful of opened eye visual experiences with Phalaris extracts and around a dozen more with beautiful closed eye imagery with the rest of experiences being body effects.
Mostly seems like i need my eyes closed and to work with it to bring out the true colors.
A close ear and eye paid to the Phalaris stand.

Hope any of that helped.

Since this is in regards to DMT-containing plants, I will comment regarding DMT-containing plants...

Ime, when you have a DMT-containing plant, you know when it's "active" or "entheogenic" because ingesting an extract facilitates a DMT experience. If you perform an extraction (whether a simple tea, full-spectrum alkaloid extract, or isolated alkaloid extract) and ingest the extract and it does not cause a DMT experience at appropriate dose levels, it should not be considered "active" or "entheogenic" via DMT content. There's no reason to complicate this.

I can smoke all sorts of things that will affect me to a greater extent than a number of other herbs. However, that data is meaningless regarding DMT- (or, more broadly, tryptamine-) content of the plant in question.

Imo, it is important that we be meticulous with regards to this research and not start making claims that could significantly confound the available data.

Disclaimer: This is subjective experience and personal research. Take as you will.

Have not done TLC. There are other tryptamines, 5-MeO-DMT, 5-Meo-NMT, NMT, 5-MT which might contribute something as well.
Smoking a flower(harvested at sun-down) seemed sort of like mild tryptamine stimulation with plants looking more detailed and more fractal patterns.
One other person was there who actually was feeling it more than i was.
There are many more things to be explored with Phalaris and new information should not be looked at as disrupting any line of research.
There are a few others i know who can vouch for the Phalaris Arundinacea activity in joints.

Would love to see other reports of it being orally active, i have found it to be active in a different manner than DMT, but again, no DMT experience. Falling into deep meditation after eating some usually though, feeling a "coming on" and some dreamy sedation but if that's gramine then gramine works well as a medicine and it's no wonder it used to be on the market.

There is a definite emphasis to talk about Phalaris' toxicity whenever it is mentioned and yes Phalaris journeys can be intense and out of the ordinary. Use it wisely, respect the plant and maybe some lessons will be shared. Still amazed that aside from its medicinal benefits, you may use Phalaris for paper and biofuels, baskets, mulch/compost, food, etc. Even use it in the winter to start fires. Again, yes it yields somewhat decently for DMT and 5-MeO-DMT, especially P. Brachystachys and P. Aquatica, but it appears different strains of Phalaris are used for different reasons. P. Minor and P. Canariensis' seeds are used as food and bird seed. Possibly P. Arundinacea possesses a better use than we know. Snuffing? Teas? Crude extracts? Better than full spectrum plant dissection?
Don't eat ergot covered Phalaris and don't eat side-of-the-road Phalaris and everything should be fine.

Thanks for the feedback snozzleberry that's well put.

Also, getting over 500mg+ of various alkaloids can be more potent than 1 gram of DMT.
I have had 5-10mg of Phalaris Arundinacea November wild harvest extract provide a 25 minute experience with about 15 minutes of a come down.
Jamie's posts about 5-MeO-NMT reminded me of that experience.
Any experience with Phalaris Paradoxa?

Soooo... the couple of tablespoons of mostly Phalaris juice I had in the fridge was getting a bit old and I didn't want to ingest any more of it as is. It was processed as follows:

*Added 2 tsp sodium bicarbonate. Effervescence was noted, entirely in keeping with the distinctly acidic taste of the original juice. Transferred to evaporation dish and rinsed remnants from glass with 70% EtOH (actually, redistilled brandy).

*Juice evaporated down with reptile heat mat and computer fan.

*2 tsp anhydrous sodium carbonate added to resulting viscous liquid and mixed in very thoroughly. Change of odour noted, from 'cake-like' with bicarb. to more unpleasant 'washing powder with almost a hint of fish'.

*Dish returned to evaporation setup.

*After about an hour, broke up the crusty cake with a spatula, working it down to a texture of fine breadcrumbs. Something about that smell... bleugh!

*repeated last two steps two more times, each time breaking material up into powder, paying attention to larger lumps.

*After a coarse, largely dry powder had been prepared, a small sample was subjected to an impromptu vaporisation test.

> As there was much plant matter still present, this contributed to the dominant burnt vegetation odour of the smoke. However, the previously odourless tube through which the smoke was inhaled subsequently developed a characteristic indolic smell. Subtle effects were noted, so a further 1/4 teaspoon of the powder was smoked through a dry bong using a heat torch. This caused a 'visual sheen' effect, a distinct mood lift and periodic light trance-like effects with very slight muscular incoordination. When relaxing in dim lighting some 4 hours later, mild closed-eye visuals developed which were notably outside normal levels and persisted as open eye visual alteration - 'aliveness' - for ten minutes or so after rising and returning to daylight surroundings.<

*The remaining powder was extracted with 1 x 10 mL an 4 x 5 mL dry IPA.

*2 drops of the first 10 mL extract were evaporated on aluminium foil. After the solvent odur was gone, the residue was heated with a heat torch and the vapour was inhaled, resulting once more in a mood lift and visual sheen effects.

*The solution, which under normal lighting conditions was a deep green from the chlorophyll, was observed to fluoresce a deep red colour under UV light. This is also from the chlorophyll.


...and that, my friends, is where this experiment currently stands. Chlorophyll fluorescence is very cool - it's fun to have a tube of green stuff that you can turn red by shining UV light on it!

I'm thinking about doing some chromatography next, but will have to make some plates first.

Will also try sticking some flowers straight in the old bong. That is my favourite hobby, after all

here is pics...looks pretyt waxy and dense, could be cleaned up a bit still into a more resiny stuff but im gunna wait till I do some more pulls. Either way its potent as it is.

Jamie, those look exactly like my Acetone pulls with Phalaris Arundinacea! Potent stuff indeed.
Formed them into little golden pyramids as well.

Congrats, hope ya don't mind me asking; what is effective minimal dosage?

okay so I have gotten that extract down to 127 mg of goo, by cleaning it twice with iso pulls.

I have concluded that if you have waxy hard taffy like stuff like I have shown above, it is far from clean and full of sodium carb or other impurities. It can still be active and smell of indole when vaped but its hard to smoke and very impure, and your dosing info will end up way off. I used vodka for the first clean up so it pulled a lot of extra crap being only 40% alcohol(I am trying to find a more friendly alternative to iso, but pure ethanol is banned here, so I may have to dry some vodka).

The goo is more like what I am used to seeing with phalaris when 99% iso is used to clean up after the solvent pulls and acetate salts. The goo is what you want unless your doing naptha recrystallization or fumarate precipitation.

Another way to test for relative purity is to put some on your tounge. There should be the typical alkaloid burn sensation after holding it there for a short time. If you instead get a salt taste without the burn, than its very impure stuff. The goo has that distinct tryptamine alkaloid burn, with a stronger indole scent.

Also, remember..Dekorne was smoking 50mg of arundinacea goo(turkey red I think?) at a time for his white light experiences. Appleseed said 75mg for oral, and that 8mg of that should be 5meoDMT. Of course alkaloid contents between strains can vary, but the point I wish to make is that required doses could even potentially be at the 100mg range etc from some strains if they are dominant in mono-methyl tryptamines.. Dosage is something that really needs to be worked out. 20mg etc might not produce much effect for some people testing this stuff out. You can approach it like its a mimosa extract. A lot of the other alkaloids like beta carbolines might make up 50% or more of the extract and not be active at the 10mg range etc..you might need 80mg of the extract to get 15mg of the combined tryptamine portion..but then the beta carbolines would really boost that 15mg at that point producing powerful experiences. We just don't know this stuff yet.

I don't think I have tried a truly powerful dose of this stuff yet, on the order of 50mg solid vaped dose as Dekorne and others were describing. I weighed out 50mg of the goo and I know I have not vaped that much.

I have been somewhat resistant to posting more data here because, personally I feel there is a lot of shotty information going around about grasses lately that is questionable, and I dont wish for people to find my work and assume I am saying this is jut some new mimosa replacement. I have said this so many times, and still people just hear "DMT".

I have been consuming wild grass extracts on a somewhat regular basis now, sometimes combined with other extracts.

Please read this whole thread, and not just this post if you can have ended up here.

The extract from wild grass combines very well with harmalas extracted from peganum harmala. When a sufficient oral dose of harmine/harmaline hcl is consumed, and a vaporized dose of the grass extract follows, a distinct state resembling that of oral DMT/harmala brews presents itself within a few minutes. There is however still a lack of intense visuals compared to DMT, but all of the other mental effects of DMT were present..specific to this combination with the grass for me is a feeling one is fully awake energetically in a way I was not previously. Appleseed described this effect of the turkey red strain. This may be an effect of 5meo-tryptamines in general. I dont really have much else to say on that. To express the experience would require me to write a poem or something, which Im not going to do. the experience lasted about 45-60 minutes.

With DMT from Mimosa Hostilis, vaporized once the peak of a vaporized grass extract is expressed there is an incredible synergy present. Again, it is hard to describe, but there is a more somatic openness to the DMT effect. It was extremely sensual, spiritual and theraputic and the aftereffect was extended compared to pure DMT.

there is a sense of chakra or energy center activation with the extract, or something like that description. People like to talk about pineal or 3rd eye activation, and that feels like a term some might use to describe the effect.

It is gentle and not in your face. I could probly use it as a tryptamine empathogen that allows for psychic lubrication.

So... a little update here. The vast tracts of what I thought to be (strangely non-aquatic) Phalaris arundinacaea turned out (of course) to be its close lookalike, Dactylis glomerata. D. glomerata is not thought to contain any alkaloids (according to, e.g. feedpedia) so either my above mentioned extraction produced a placebo effect or feedpedia is wrong.

This isn't about Phalaris, so I hesitate to continue here with some of my other findings, which are most interesting when combining the smoking of grass flowers with phenylpropene derivatives in the form of absinthe.

Here is a brief summary:

*Moderate quantities of GOOD QUALITY absinthe were consumed throughout the course of a day, not enough to feel drunk. Pomegranate juice was used as a mixer.

*Quantities of Dactylis glomerata and Holcus lanata flowers were smoked in a bong.

CEVs and euphoria resulted.

Excellent. Have loads of both grasses to work with.
Were the flowers gone to seed or fresh?
Holcus Lanatus looks magical as it is.
I have read into what it contains and apparently it is Cyanogenic Glycosides(C.G.).
Maybe different regions have tryptamine containing Velvet grass.
Or, certain C.G. activity operates similar to other plant chemicals.
A friend told me he felt the same as Phalaris with Johnson grass(Sorghum Halepense) and Blue Joint Grass(Calamagrostis Canadensis). (I do not fully know the validity of their potent experiences).
In Some Simple Tryptamines, 5-MeO-DMT is found in Sorghum.

I want to keep the focus of this thread on phalaris. Another thread dedicated specifically to other grass species would better serve that discussion.

I agree. I mostly posted as a reiteration of the possibility of confusion between Dactylis glomerata and P.arundinacea.

I will pop in an edit when I've started my, perhaps, 'other grasses' thread. I'm not sure what category to put it in right now. Suggestions? Otherwise I'm sure I'll work it out

Meanwhile, I'll check out my local (extremely abundant) Phalaris patches which definitely aren't D. glom. and see how it goes. This is a great thread and I want in with some serious data (for once)!

Well, I think my "Yugo Red" and "Big Medicine" clones are about big enough for a small harvest. I also have a fair amount of harvested P. arundinacea, two different samples, that I intend to extract out of curiosity. I would very much like to jump on this proverbial bandwagon and do some small-scale, full-spectrum extractions on various Phalaris specimens. I think there is much to be learned from the Phalaris teacher(s)!

The seed heads being mildly active is interesting.
I'm waiting for more details since I caught word of a crude extraction of dried Phalaris Stenoptera seed heads of which was subtle but pleasant when smoked.

seed heads do absolutely nothing to me. I would rather refrain from discussion of smoking unextracted grass in this thread however.

Jamie:
In your personal experience with various Phalaris species, what factors have you found to have an effect on alkaloid content (harvest time of day, season of harvest, light exposure, water level, maturity of plant at harvest, etc.)? I have heard speculation that any and all of these could have an effect, I am just curious to hear your experience and opinion on the matter. Thanks!

I am not willing to comment on that yet, beyond my own experience that would suggest that seasonal changes are a factor. I have not experimented much with different factors in cultivation yet. I just grow them and clip them and wait for regrowth.

Of course, phenotype is huge factor as well.

Right on, thanks for the input!

Jamie I don't know exactly what region you're from but I have been collecting phalaris from different zones across the west coast.

They vary in potency obviously.

Now what I have said about an extraction of seed heads goes beyond just smoking raw ones which are also mild sometimes in some places if picked at the right time.

I guess this depends on your level of respect and experience with this grass.

Sunrise and sunset is best time for phalaris

P. Arundinacea yields best usually from august-late september. Through november if youre lucky. Also in early spring.

I have had certain species yield a usable amount in may and june.


We shall start a seed head thread to get some information flowing.