Yep when i was little i had a dream that i had been given an action man. I really wanted one at the time. And, for some reason, it had been encased in a loaf of white sliced bread. I woke up in the morning still feeling convinced that i still had, and was lieing on, the dough encrusted doll. I didn"t want to move as i wanted to keep the dream alive. Unfortunately it turned out not to be real.
Maybe having my dreams shattered at such an early age has skewed my view of these things .

but then you might have a dream within a dream, thinking you woke up but you didn't. And there is no proof that you give that can't be argued to be just a part of the dream. That's gibran's point I guess..

But yeah this dream or reality we are in is very persistent, and different people are experiencing it (apparently), and we spend a long time inside of it, so it seems relevant enough to treat it at least as 'real enough', regardless of one's philosophical orientation regarding 'primacy of matter/consciousness/whatever else'

Yes i understand this. But when i dream i can fly and do cool stuff but i am bound by certain physical rules in baseline "reality"
I nearly died once and i sometimes wonder whether i really did die and that my current awareness is some sort of dreamlike state - all my friends and relatives have carried on and been through the mourning process etc etc. But if they are also living some sort of dreamlike state (if that is what Gilbran is surmising), then their "real" take on my death is just a dream and therefore i didn"t die. So just what the hell is really going on????
Believe me there is no one more than me that wishes irrational nonsense such as this is true. But eggs is eggs.

Self aware is nothing more than a though with a label, "I", "me", "mine".

It really is nothing more and nothing less than a simple thought...like any other thought.
Animals clearly have thoughts just as humans do.

I completely and utterly reject the current scientific test for self awareness. It's total total BS.
Place a dot on a animals head and see if he tries to remove it in a mirror...WTF kinda 'scientific' test is that?

How about this: If you try to kill a being does it run for it's life, then it's self aware. If not then why would it run? People say instinct...and I say describe to me instinct in terms of thoughts. Bullshit. Animals are clearly self aware, they clearly have thoughts, feelings and emotions. Ultimately awareness is just a spectrum from simple charged particles to self awareness...and I'm betting there is an even higher level of awareness that completely transcends that petty ego based self.

I'll give you this though. Animals do seem to be FAR FAR less preoccupied with their 'selves' than we humans are.

Theres no doubt that animals have emotions but do they understand that they are alive? Can they contemplate their own existence? Who knows

When we were less preoccupied with ourselves were we any less conscious?

Is the above not as likely to be a result of societal and environmental conditioning? I personally call this modern day version of 'incessant preoccupation with self' misplaced sentience, that's just my monkey mind at play though..

Speaking of, this behaviour can be shown within groups of animals that form packs (imho) and form hierarchies (alpha male etc).. I can't see how this can be merely labelled as "instinct" without asking what drives that instinct (we are not exactly talking muscle memory here) and what creates the necessity for a group of animals to learn to form in such a way. Again I doubt entire groups of animals do this out of instinct without some form of learning (heading into the oft called 'genetic memory' realms of thought perhaps)..

Just some thoughts.

How can you prove you’re not dreaming right now?

I don’t ask the question because I believe we’re dreaming. I ask it because it can’t be proven.

And if you can’t prove you’re not dreaming, then you can’t prove that physical reality exists independent of consciousness.

It’s as simple as that!

A couple of my favourite quotes (from The Hagakure)

"Is not man like a well-operated puppet? It is a piece of dexterous workmanship that he can run, jump, leap, and even talk though there are no strings attached. Will we not be guests at next year's Bon Festival? This world is vanity indeed. People always forget this."

and

"Our bodies are given form from the midst of nothingness. Existing where there is nothing is the meaning of the phrase 'Form is emptiness'. That all things are provided for by nothingness is the meaning of the phrase, 'Emptiness is form'. One should not think that these are two separate things."

Contemplating your existing is nothing but thoughts. Animals clearly have thoughts.

I think a more important question is why we think out thoughts about 'being alive' are some how special or more important.

Thoughts are thoughts.
Thoughts are illusions.
Self awareness is an illusion.


Gibran. Yes I can prove I'm not dreaming.
Pinch yourself and ask are you dreaming.
If you ever do this in a real dream you will become lucid.


Why do we put some thoughts above other thoughts.
Don't the all just arise out of nothing...then return to nothing.

Where do thoughts originate from...EXACTLY where and how?

of course we'r dreaming right now..ask certain indigenous peoples they'l tell ya.

..and this James Kent guy..boy is he ever right on the money. My favorite by far!

Man this is so awesome I just peed all over my leg.

I just pinched myself and asked myself if I’m dreaming. Nothing happened.

What does this prove?

It proves/suggests that you are not dreaming in the classical sense.
Could this be a higher level dream? Of course. Btw im not disagreeing with you. I see the whole thing as a dream of sorts, but not a typical nightly dream.... I have conviced myself it is not that from actual lucid dreaming. Proof? No. Not as in publishable proof .

Of course I never meant to use the word in the classical sense.
Dream is a metaphor.

If this reality is the dream of Consciousness (or God, or whatever other term you want to use), then it obviously isn’t a dream in the classical sense. It is much more.

If this is the dream of consciousness/God there seem to be certain physical rules to which we have to adhere to. Does this mean you are implying intelligent design?

"Gibran. Yes I can prove I'm not dreaming.
Pinch yourself and ask are you dreaming."

i once found myself in an apocalyptic zombie dream and realized i was dreaming... but while lucid, no matter how hard i pinched or punched myself i couldn't wake up out of it

It seems we have found ourselves in a lively debate about solipsism!
It's something I have struggled with from an early age.

How can anyone prove to me that they are or are not a figment of my imagination? My mind may have made this whole universe, complete with seemingly conscious people whom I interact with. Why I would have chosen to live my days out in my mind being me, I cannot begin to fathom....

The issue is that we take in all of what we know from the world through our five senses. Only five channels connect me to reality. Suppose they were all cut, and I found myself lost in my own head. I'm sure the mind would create its own reality in that case, entering a real solipsist state.

So all you can really do is take this reality at face value. There's no way to prove either way, but Occam's razor can help. Which is more likely/simple: there are billions of minds living in a physical world, or my mind created the entire universe? Neither one is more provable to me, but I'll take the billions of minds one. There's less responsibility that way.

Another interesting thing to consider is the consciousness of human made machines. Right now they possess some level of consciousness, but are likely not self aware. What then if they were able to attain a self-awareness equivalent to ours? The only way we might now is through our interactions with them. They would appear aware, and we'd have to take that at face value. They may well be reacting and interacting only because of their programming and physical configuration. So, couldn't the same be argued for us?

Right now there's not enough known either way for me to decide. Perhaps there is a Consciousness which inhabits my physical body. Perhaps my physical body creates my mind, and my experiences are merely products of physical processes.

Who knows either way? More must be discovered. Neuroscientists have barely scratched the surface. As far as we know, the human brain is the most complex thing in the universe and it would be arrogant to think we could understand it after little more than a century of real research. The argument about creating an invisible force that cannot be observed, or studied is equally valid, however we did build radio transceivers which use an invisible force once completely unknown to us. The energy of the mind may well be a similar thing, and we may yet build devices to measure consciousness directly.

So you suspect that other people may be a figment of your imagination eh? If that is so, then it is more than likely that YOU are a figment of imagination. Not your imagination, just.... imagination, owned by no one. When we wake up from a dream we realize that we have a body and it was our brain that created the dream. I suspect, that when we wake up from the dream of this personal existence, we realize that there is no dreamer at all, but only consciousness and space. Dream and nothing. Actually, I more than merely suspect this.

but if i never woke up (or if i woke up every night, but never remembered), i would have a dream-scar just as dream-permanent as the rest of my dream-reality.
surely this is evidence (nay, proof) the dream is real?


with no waking(er) state to contrast with this 'dream' what form would lucidity take?
i am reminded of concepts of enlightenment (breaking through maya)

also related eyedea songs

Exactly my view. The concept of consciousness being localized to individual living beings such as us, animals, insects, etc seems to be an illusion. There is one consciousness, one sacred awareness. I feel this awarenss permeates every human being, every tree, every rock, EVERYTHING in existence, ad infinitum, for consciousness is not some specific aspect of a human being, animal, etc.....for it IS EVERYTHING. Consciousness is ALL. ALL is consciousness. We and everything in existence are bathed in consciousness.

much love,
tat

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