Well... I can't really agree with that because what's done is done. Evolution has taken it's course and we ARE at a population of almost 7 billion. It's not really a matter of what we're supposed to be, it's a matter of how we intend on dealing with it.

I'm a firm believer in the saying "Nature provides enough for everyone's needs, but not everyone's greed."

If we can learn to use our resources more responsibly then we would see some massive changes throughout the system.

Yes, sorry...what I was really trying to say is that maybe that's why it is so difficult to find a solution. Because the actual evolving we did was exclusively in smallish groups. And now suddenly in the last blink of an eye (couple of hundred years) we've got to very quickly adapt to these colossal collections of people.

Yeah, we've pushed ourselves to the brink of extinction if we continue to go down the same path we have been. We've got radical problems that will require radical solutions. That's why I'm such an advocate for The Venus Project. It's about as radical as you can get and it makes sense.

It's just a matter of how to make it become a reality. I believe that conscious community building will be essential to our continued evolution.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. We're all in this together and there is no reason NOT to help each other out. Instead of killing each other over the last piece of bread, let's kill each other with kindness!

Spent the day at the Atlanta occupation and witnessed a lot of beautifully constructive dialogue between people representing very different perspectives on the issue at hand. Also I was amazed at the how self sufficient it was: hot meals on hand cooked fresh at headquarters, medic station, recycling, and they were currently in the process of planning a laundry system, not to mention being able to reach a total consensus between ~75 people on pretty much every proposal, including to invite representative John Lewis back after he was denied an opportunity to speak yesterday. Ahhh, something real for a change...

I think everyone here has a wonderful view of the future.

But I keep hearing things like, "if everyone just changed their view"

The problem here is changing everyone's view. Like MC said we can raise awareness...but what we can't do is make everyone agree with us.



This is an example of what I'm talking about. How do we get to a system with no money from a system that has depended on money for thousands of years? Remember no matter how much you want to be equal with everyone else, the vast majority on this planet do not. Most people believe if they work harder and try harder they should be rewarded more. Whether that view is right or wrong is not relevant to my point. My point is simply that there are 7 Billion views on this planet. We all sink or swing together.

Maybe I suffer from an imagination void, but I have a very very hard time imagining how we can get to a system without money without causing massive..and I mean Massive starvation around the globe. As sad is it is, no farmer is going to go work his fields all day so a homeles man that isn't working can eat. Don't focus on the immorality of it. Focus on the reality of it. We have to get there from here.

We can't do away with this system overnight or even over a decade. It won't work. Huge civil wars in multiple countries would erupt overnight.



I disagree. we have never had a money problem in this country. We have an allocation problem. We currently spend 750 Billion a year on war. (wiki only shows 650 Billion, but I know this number has been revised since then...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/...by_military_expenditures

This is literally more than the next 18 highest nations combined. If we cut it down to 350 Billion we would free up 400 Billion and STILL out spend every other nation.

So from my view we sure don't have a money problem it's an allocation problem..and it's disturbing. If we cut our military in half we'd be a long long way towards socialized medicine, or base line food for people or even free education.



-There were no taxes. These were the day's of the SUPER rich like the Vanderbuilts and Rothchilds. These people had sumer homes in Rhode Island that are grossly beyond normal sized mansions....HUGE. They built this wealth with railroads and coal mines. The workers had pretty dismal conditions.
-Only wealthy white male land owners could vote.
-And we had slaves.

Personally I think the only thing great about our constitution is that it can be amended. IMHO.



This is very true, but what you are talking about and proposing is essentially doing away with states rights for a massive form of socialism. No sense in NY having a venus project if Texas is still going to burn oil for everything right?



This I'm down with..but there has to be more. We have to enact policies in today's system that will push in this direction. Anything else will likely result in total collapse and chaos.



And this is ultimately my entire point.

The monetary system is very very ingrained in everyone's life. Humans motivation is a strange topic indeed.

You say no tax policy reform will do it and hell I agree. Tax policy reform sure as hell won't get us to the Venus project, but if we can level the playing field more and more by giving a voice back to the people then eventually raising awareness will have a real impact.

In today's current system....if you had 75% of the voters on board with the Venus project....we'd still fail. The system as controlled by the elite would never allow itself to go this direction. We need to gain the power back without collapsing the system. Right now our votes matter very little in this country. Oh sure we do get to elect a candidate, but only after the elite have determined which candidates we chose from. We have very litle voice in this country and the tiny voice we do have is kept in a very fractured state because politicians (on both sides) use fear, uncertainty, doubt, and propaganda to keep us all at each others throats. We need to take some steps to regaining this power before the elite plunge us into another global war. We need to be honest about changes that we can and can't effect.

My only points with what I outlined in my first post was a baby step. Something real and something potentially tangible in our lifetimes. I'm not even remotely claiming I have the perfect answer, but I do feel as though my solution would push us closer to this system than we are today.

The money system isn't going anywhere in our lifetimes without a total collapse.

So how do we get to the venus project from here?

So far I think I see two ideas in this thread that are tangible (I apologize if I'm missing some...we can add them to the list)

1) Small baby steps that would level the playing field. ( we can debate how this is achieved later)
2) Raising awareness.

Are there any other ideas? I'm sort of using the venus project as an ultimate goal, but by all means others should propose other ideas if they have them.

I'm very curious to hear from a lot of people here.

What would you like to see our world look like and how would you propose we get there from here.

Peace.

I agree that we can't get everyone to change their minds but we can give them plenty of food for thought. At least to those who want to think.



How do we get there? Like I said, by intensive community building projects. You give the power back to the people to support themselves and spread that knowledge to others, so that they in turn, can support themselves.

You say that the vast majority of the this planet doesn't want to be equal with everyone else. I have to respectfully disagree. If you count all of the voiceless people who are rotting away in poverty living on less than $1 a day, I would guarantee that their numbers are FAR higher than the rich Americans, Europeans and Asians who don't want anything to change.

I do agree that we all sink or swim together and that's all I really want to do. Is get everyone on the same page to realize what the real issues are and to understand that there are viable solutions to these issues.





I agree that a group of farmers won't invest their life into feeding everyone. I guess I should have went into more detail about my ideas of what the community building projects would consist of. With emerging technologies like Permaculture, Aquaculture and Eco-Domes, we can feed and house the majority of the worlds population with very little funds considering the massive scale of what can be accomplished.

With technologies like these, you can give the power back to the people and allow them to take care of themselves. These systems take a bit of work to get established but they are truly sustainable in every aspect of their design. Once build, they can last thousands of years.

2000 Year Old Food Forest
A million pounds of food on 3 acres

So if we can implement technologies like this, you wouldn't need a dedicated farmer to feed everyone. The community feeds itself and has more than enough to share with other emerging communities.




I agree that it wouldn't work over night but over the course of a decade... I tend to disagree with that. Once people see the first communities pop up and see how they work, I believe that there will be a huge demand for these communities to be perpetuated around the world.





I agree that it's an allocation problem but that the essence of the worlds issues. The people who have the money don't want to use it to fix the problems we are facing. They just want to use the money to keep things as they are and to fuel the fires of inequality.

With the amount of money they've spent on the war, we could feed, clothe and shelter every single human being on this planet, probably several times over.

We need cooperation from everyone.





I agree that the greatest thing about our constitution is that it can be amended and changed. Our forefathers knew they didn't have all of the answers and that one set of rules, etched in stone wouldn't do anyone any good for the long haul.

The problem is that the Super rich has perverted it so far that it doesn't really benefit anyone but them.





I'm not talking about doing away with state rights, I'm talking about giving the states more rights to do what they need to do. Give each state the power to come up with their own solutions and to govern their own people. As it stands now, our government tries to be a "One size fits the world" type of system and this isn't right or fair to the vast majority of the population. If they actually gave a damn about "The People" of the world, it might work but they obviously do not.

As far as having a Venus Project in NY and TX burning oil, that would be up to TX to decide. If we can let them know that there is only x amount of oil left and if they continue to work unsustainably then they will eventually be left in the dark, I'm sure they would look into some other alternatives. Once they are actually IN the dark they would definitely be looking for something better.





That's exactly the point of all of this. As far as I'm concerned, our economy can't stand much more before it completely crumbles under our feet. This is our opportunity to inform people that there are other alternatives available. If people know that there are better solutions available, they will be less likely to riot and cause the chaos. Instead, they will demand that these solutions be put into motion.





Well, I don't really think that it would take a collapse of the system in order to reach The Venus Project. That would certainly help it along but it's not required.

My proposition on how to get from here to there would be to start with the poorest communities who need this kind of system. If we had the opportunity to tear down a few parking lots in our urban city areas and replace them with some permaculture plots so that the community can feed themselves and increase their quality of life, it would only be a matter of time before other urban centers demanded something similar.

My main initiative here is to return the power to the people, give them the resources they need not only to survive but to prosper. All the while, document everything and revise it to work even better.

Once people see that they can take care of themselves, I have faith that they won't want the government or anyone else to take care of them. Not only that, I have faith that they will want to help other communities and share the information that they've learned along the way.

There is a documentary called "How to save the world" about a New Zeland botanist going to India and showing them how to do permaculture. These communities in India have been plagued with farmer suicides because of the previous unsustainable farming practices they've been force fed by Monsanto and other companies.

By the end of the documentary, you can see how overjoyed and prosperous the people are. It starts with one farm and then it spreads like wild fire. Others see that it works and want to do the same thing.

I believe that the same thing can happen here. It's just a matter of building that first plot, documenting it and then perpetuating it to everyone who needs it.

I realize that this won't solve everyones problems but I believe that it's a great first step to see some lasting change.

This is awesome to hear Overdose! I really hope that we here in Jacksonville can get that sufficient. We've been having to deal with a LOT of red tape as to what we can and can't do. It's great to hear people overcoming these hurdles!

Keep posting updates brother! I'm looking forward to hearing more.

Melodic couple of points/questions.

I think these are great ideas. We need to begin building sustainable transportation and power systems all over the planet. We need sustainable farms as well. How will these building projects be paid for? Does it still seem feasible to do away with money?

I agree that if you take ALL the people on the planet you might get a higher percentage of people wanting to be equal, but those people don't have a voice. I want to give them the voice. I feel no reason to assume anything about how these people will express their views once they are given a voice.

I've seen poor people become rich and completely change who they were...and vice versa. I'm not smart enough to think for everyone else. I just want to give a voice to all the people because I believe a true democracy will win out over time. We have nothing like a true democracy nor have we ever had such a system. BTW I don't believe a true democracy would turn the ship around over night...or even in a single decade..but over a generation yes. People are hard to change. The older they get the more set in their ways they tend to become.

Also the problem with Texas burning oil while NY runs a venus project is that Texas would essentially be undermining the work NY was doing. Running out of energy is indeed a big problem, but so is the impact to the environment. I believe we need a world wide solution to these problems. Since we as a people of the planet are all effected by this I don't think I would be happy at all with Texas or China making decisions on their own about how much energy (read coal/oil) to use.

Also do you really think a financial collapse in the USA were guns are everywhere would be peaceful? I gotta be honest I don't. There is a lot of nasty in this world. A failed state is like an incubator for these sorts of people.

I just don't see everyone jumping on board with this idea. Not even after a decade. People growing up in today's world are so very polarized. It just isn't going to be possible to get the majority of the people in first world countries to change if you plan to yank the carpet out from under their way of life. AND you need the first world people on board because they control all the money and essentially all the military. Yes it's sad, but it is the world we live in.

BTW I'm just debating to keep the ideas moving and circulating. I really like your ideas about government sponsored building projects as long as we focus them on sustainable projects...but already about half our country doesn't even believe in climate change. <<-- We need to fix our education in this country as well.

For me the primary things I'd like to see reflected in US policy are: $1000.00 maximum campaign contributions. No corporate sponsorship and no corporate subsidies. While those certainly won't get us to the venus project I do thing it would be a HUGE HUGE step in the right direction of empowering the people and removing the overwhelming amount of business interest from our government. This would have the effect of reducing a lot of the political propaganda IMHO.


Keep up the good ideas. I don't really think there is a bad idea at this stage of the game. Any and all ideas should be brought forth and discussed. This is how we can all learn and grow and adapt our message and thinking.

Peace.

I agree, at this point in time, doing away with money all together would be devastating to everyone. That's why I propose small, sustainable projects in the communities that need them the most. While we are there building the systems, it would be a great opportunity to educate these people about what the higher goals and aspirations could be.




I agree with this to an extent but we have to keep in mind that humanity is at a very real tipping point. If we continue to work as we have been, then we are all doomed. For this reason, I believe that action speaks louder than words.

People are very hard to change and that's why it's important to focus on just one person at a time. Through individual conversations, we can slowly bring people around to new ways of thinking. You're right that it will take some time and I think ultimately you'll end up with two groups. Those who want to change and those who want things to stay the same.

Right now, we focus on talking to the people who want things to change and we start taking action in order to bring about those changes. If the people who do not wish to change can't come around then they will eventually perish and those of us who do want change, will use their dead bodies as compost.





I agree with you 100% but the thing to keep in mind is you'll have people on both sides of the fence in all locations. If we can get the vast majority of people thinking and ACTING sustainably then democracy would prevail and limit the amount of unsustainable resources each state/country would be allowed to use.




I think we would have a lot of mixed emotions going on if the financial collapse happens relatively soon. I believe that the people who are unaware of alternatives would be the people causing the most damage. When resources become unavailable, that is when you see human behavior at it's worst. Our human instinct to survive is incredibly strong and we'll do whatever it takes to get our next meal.

I hope that the people who ARE aware of the alternatives would simply move out of the cities where all of the chaos is happening and start building their own communities away from the bullshit.

That's why this period in time is critical to spreading awareness and education to the alternatives. We must start bringing out the change before it goes that far.



I agree but if the system collapses, the carpet will be pulled out from under them anyway. I realize that the majority of the population has no interest in becoming more sustainable. They are still under the impression that everything is fine. They are still very, very asleep to the issues of the world. This has got to change and the only way to accomplish that is through education. Like I said, it's a matter of getting one person at a time on board and thinking outside of the box. When we can get the majority of the population to realize we're heading for global human extinction, they will realize what I've been saying all along. Evolve or perish.



I completely agree 1000%. Our education system truly is a joke in this country. Like I've said on other topics, the world's leaders and elite want us smart enough to run their machines but dumb enough not to ask questions. Education will be key for anything worthwhile to come from all of this.




I agree that these are great first steps in returning the power back to the people and another priority would be to remove the corporate ownership and influence of the media. As long as they are free to spew their propaganda to the general public, it will be very hard to convince the general public that how we a currently operating is unacceptable and that there are better ways to do things.

Once we can get our mass media back, it will be FAR easier to educate people about the issues we're facing and how to deal with them.




I agree 100%. Even if an idea is bad, it should be discussed so that people understand why it is a bad idea.

Thank you for keeping the ideas and dialog rolling Joe. I just wish there was a way to allow more people to see this thread, especially the people out there on the front lines trying to bring about the changes we so desperately need right now.

I love you man! <3 <3 <3

right back at ya brother.

Peace.